^^ The thing is, this particular agent does this all the time in my community. IDK how he does it, if he puts the birdie in buyer's ears but he manages to get people to list and then next thing you know new people move in and the land is split. And then he puts up giant McFarmhouses on those splits (he's also affiliated with a builder -- they also buy up available vacant land and put up the McFarmhouses). It's his M.O., it's happened more times than I care to recount in my community with this particular agent. If it was some other random agent I wouldn't be so upset. Because I doubt if the split is sold to his builder affiliation that I'm going to be able to secure the land.

So yea -- I think MY M.O. is soon going to switch to making minor, inexpensive updates/repairs in prep for a potential move.

I'm screwed....unless the township needs me or the guy on the other side of him to sign off on easement for driveway if it comes to that. We might be able to block it that way if all this plays out the way I expect it will.

Man, I really hope I'm just over-reacting and none of this goes down....

You can't choose neighbors. If you don't like whatever inconveniences or annoyances they cause that are within their rights to do, you can accept it or move.

I doubt my DM was the only realtor to calm a buyer's concerns about neighbors by asking what kind of neighbors they'd had at their prior home. Their chances of happiness were higher if they'd liked them or at least had no big concerns about them. .

You take a chance if you buy where there are no regulations about what is permitted or if regulations are not enforced evenly.

My daughter lives in a 1930 Tudor on a corner in a lovely town near me. When they bought this over 30 years ago, the Tudor beside them was owned by an elderly man who died a few years later. The relatives sold the house to a nice young couple but kept the lot which was part of the house for 100 years to be sold separately. Of course, a contractor scooped it up because the town is very desirable real estate. The young couple didn't have the money to purchase the land, so my daughter and husband who were, went to the contractor and offered to buy the land he just bought for slightly more money. Surprisingly, he agreed, which he didn't have to do. This house would have been crammed into the space, and the young couple paid my daughter back over the years. They all still live there, and the space between their yards is large and lovely, and the two families have been good friends all these years. >>Hope this will all work out for you.

Dedtired- do you live in my neighborhood???This guy is a horder too.!

Don't project the worst. Maybe it'll be okay. And if not, fences make good neighbors.

"And if not, fences make good neighbors."

But they don't block out the construction noise, dust, pollution, and general disruption.

But yes, my mind is stuck on the worst today...

Lily -- that is a lovely story and worked out well for everyone involved, I'm sure that young couple was so appreciative!

@porkchop_z5b_MI if you would consider buying the split land, then maybe you could afford to buy the whole shebang? If so, you could buy the house and add a covenant to the property that it can never be split. Then become a landlord and pick your neighbors, or sell it knowing there won't be a new house build next to you.

^^ No I cannot afford the whole thing. Even if I could, I'd just move -- it'd be cheaper. If it were split, the land itself would not be cost-prohibitive and would add directly to my existing acreage.

"split is available"........... there would be another house built out back (our lots are long and narrow) with a flagpole driving leading back there"

A lot of clarification is needed here. Is there an additional lot connected the the house for sale that is already platted on the map with it's own PID number? If so there would be two PID #'s on the listings. If this is the case you are SOL.

If not, subdividing a lot isn't an easy process and requires review by the planning and development board recommending approval to the city council with a public hearing. Any new lots created would need to adhere to present codes for setbacks and frontage requirements and not the code used when the development was built way back when.

A flagpole drive? Is there an easement for a driveway already recorded on your deed? Things don't add up.

Pushing a driveway through a property to develop the back of a existing long lot in any city I know of is impossible these days. A minimum road frontage is required, and unless the lot in question has already been platted with an easement their is NO way a split could happen. The easiest way to check is look at the cities property plat map to see if a legal lot does exist.

Your post reassures me a little bit, Kevin. But still unknowns.

Is there an additional lot connected the the house for sale that is already platted on the map with it's own PID number? If so there would be two PID #'s on the listings. If this is the case you are SOL.

Not that I've seen...yet.

A flagpole drive? Is there an easement for a driveway already recorded on your deed? Things don't add up.

Not sure. I'd have to dig through my paperwork to see if I have it; if not, I can go down to city hall and find out. He had a survey done last fall; I may be able to get a copy of that, too, to see what's up. I've seen many long, skinny driveways to properties behind properties around here, that's what I'm calling a "flagpole driveway" because I don't know what else to call it. The properties I've seen that sort of thing on are larger parcels. But if there's no ordinance against it, then it could be done. Unless they need part of my property to do so -- then I'd tell him to go pound sand (or sell me the land). So yes a survey would be useful here.

If I see my neighbor outside I ask him a few questions and try to find out more. We're not buddy-buddy but are on friendly terms.

In my area these are called flag lots.

One day our next door neighbor's little 15 pound terrier got loose - next thing you know it's coming back across the street dragging its hind legs because the neighbors shot it in the spine. They denied it, of course, but the dog had to be euthanized.

@anj_p -

The part of your comment that I copied and pasted above, made my eyes tear. UNBELIEVABLE.

porkchop -- Don't be shy. Go to your city hall and ask about the legal options for the property in question. Can it be subdivided? Under what conditions? What's the maximum FAR (floor area ratio) for a house on that potential flag lot? Who has to agree to the creation of a driveway back to a flag lot? What are your options to block subdivision or a monster house?

Are any of your neighbors similarly threatened by these changes in the character of your town? There's strength in numbers, but don't be surprised if sellers only want to get the most money for their property, then move away.

You can only control what you own, but some homeowners will see these subdivisions as harming the value of their homes.

Well, I talked to my neighbor. I'm happy for him -- he's moving to be closer to family, building what sounds to be quite a nice home. I asked him what he knows about the split, he didn't know much, but he said the realtor said probably no one will want to split because of the shape of the property. I don't see why my neighbor would make that up, he's outta there and all he cares about is the place sells, but I don't believe what he relayed for a hot minute -- simply because of this realtor. I did tell my neighbor I'd buy the split for the sole purpose of preventing a house being built back there, and he said he'd mention it to the realtor. I wished my neighbor well and congratulated him on the new place, we left things on friendly terms. I think it's a good move for him and something it sounds like he's wanted for a while, can't begrudge him that.

But, I do think chisue's advice to go down to city hall and ask questions is a good one -- the list of questions she posted is helpful, I'll write them down and take them with me so I don't forget what to ask.

And of course DH and I got into an argument about all this....he doesn't want to leave here unless it's in a pine box -- and even then he'd probably want the pine box buried out on the back of the property LOL!

ETA: He also gave me the name of the company who did his survey, so I might be able to get a copy of that should I need to, more information might be helpful here about easements and such (although City Hall probably has that info).

If you look at the listing on $illow, you can click the map included in the photos on most listings, then on Lot Lines and you’ll see pretty well what belongs to the neighbor.

If its subdividable , Id buy the lot in a heartbeat to maintain privacy.

Agree with dedtired. If you have the means to buy the subdivided land, that is the best way to control what happens to it.

What are property sizes are we talking about? You talk about ”acreage” so I’m assuming quite sizable. You say the properties are deep, so in picturing this I’m wondering how much a new house back there would actually affect you.

Either way ”splittable” to me means it’s one parcel which could be split and that would be a transaction with the buyer not the seller, since it doesn’t sound like the seller is making moves to do this himself.

I was blessed with the most wonderful and friendly neighborhood while raising my kids. The kind of place where when you have a baby, everyone brings over dinners. When my first husband died (kids were 14 and 16) I didn't have to cook for weeks and people took turns mowing my lawn for months - truly kind and amazing. (Also lots of surrogate 'dads' for my kids, taking them to dad's day stuff with their kids, etc.)

The only exceptions to these wonderful people? The awful couple next door. The kind of people who wouldn't wave or even smile back. They called the cops on me when racoons knocked over my garbage can, despite me picking up the mess before 7am. They swore at my 12 year old son when his basketball went on their driveway... which was empty at the time and he ran to get the ball immediately. These people were childless yet moved into a neighborhood full of families, but would turn out their lights and pretend to be gone on Halloween so trick-or-treaters would leave. I could go on and on... but ugh it makes me angry to remember them.

Of course I like a peaceful neighborhood too but I'll take kids' laughter over quiet grumps like them any day. My only regret when they finally moved was that my husband wasn't still alive to see them gone.

My parents stayed in their house for 50 years - long enough to see kids grow up and those families move out and younger families move in. Our property taxes are high, mostly because they fund the excellent public schools. My parents stated many times that they didn't mind funding schools that they no longer use because families with kids keep a neighborhood thriving. Take away the young families and some neighborhoods lose their vitality.

And no, porkchop, I'm NOT calling you a grump! My point is that in my experience, the young families help make a neighborhood awesome.

"What are property sizes are we talking about? You talk about ”acreage” so I’m assuming quite sizable. You say the properties are deep, so in picturing this I’m wondering how much a new house back there would actually affect you."

He's got about 3-1/2 acres, give or take, deeper than it is wide. Yes, a house in the back would affect me, it would be within view, and every time we go out back to the property we'd be looking at the house -- we'd lose our privacy out back as well as from the house. To some people this matters not one bit, but it does to me.

"Either way ”splittable” to me means it’s one parcel which could be split and that would be a transaction with the buyer not the seller, since it doesn’t sound like the seller is making moves to do this himself."

Correct. So I do have some time here. I want to gather all the information I can (hence the planned trip to City Hall). I might be fretting over absolutely nothing -- just because the parcel is big enough to split doesn't mean it would get approved; what is working in my favor is the shape of the parcel -- narrow and deep means may not be enough to put in the driveway.

In my lovation , flag lots are no longer allowed, so you cant build a new house on land behind an existing house. With a narrow, deep lot, this may be the case where you are.

Anyway, you need to talk to the zoning department because they will have the definitive answer, as you know.

Hoping to hear good news from your inquiries at City Hall.

Much as I hate to see a beautiful home diminished when people sell off land -- where you have a stately queen of a house left sitting on a milking stool -- you can get used to change.

You might be able to prevent the driveway from abutting your side the neighboring property.

It’s a roll of the dice. Good neighbors, bad ones. Good luck or bad. Stable or changing, nothing to do but accept what’s there or move. Hope it works out

I suppose everyone has different tolerances. We moved from a very busy, touristy beach neighborhood with lots of activity to a home a few miles away in a very quiet neighborhood with much larger lots & very little activity . I miss my former neighborhood, it was much friendlier ( guess I’m more of a ”people” person ) , I miss giving the dogs treats as they were walking by with their owners, children playing, families carrying all their beach toys in their wagons, etc. I liked the activity & interaction. Different strokes….

Neighbors are a crap shoot. I hope you have good news about the split "not' happening...and good people buy the house.

Neighbors come & go...hopefully the bad ones are replaced by good ones. That's MY hope.

anj_p I love hearing my neighbor playing piano when I walk my dog past her house. It's so nice to hear live music.

I live in a townhouse and have close neighbors but everyone is friendly & respectful and no one is noisy or trashy and I know I'm lucky for that.

" a very busy, touristy beach neighborhood with lots of activity "

A very good friend of mine lives in such an area. He's there very deliberately, having chosen to move back to the neighborhood he grew up in.

Houses are very close together and a block from the sand, though many have been rebuilt into multistory modern homes with more interior space. His "street" is a pedestrian walkway. Car access to homes is in the back from an alley. Everyone has their porch chairs or patio seating groupings in front on the walkway side, to chat with passersby.

Some of his neighbors are people he grew up with. It's a little too "Ma and Pa Kettle" for my taste. But it's a quaint relic of what was a small town that's now part of a large metro area.

Update: New neighbors moved in. Have horses. Thought that would be nice but they decided to put up the pasture fencing in a wackadoodle way complete with asphalt track that totally cr*pped up my view. It could have been worse, they at least were considerate enough to not run it along the entire property line between the houses but still.... I have a beautiful great room with wall to wall windows that now looks out at....ugly horse fencing and asphalt (it if were good-looking it wouldn't be so bad but it's not). Unfortunately the house is close to the property line on that side so it's in my face.

Nothing I can do about it, city hall permitted it. Just ventilating hoping someone can commiserate. Sigh....

This may be enough for DH to re-consider my comments about having a realtor over to see what we can get for the place, but OTOH my property value might have just dropped by due to this eyesore. Sigh....

Sorry to read your update. Can you do anything to block the neighbor’s fence and track? A fence, espaliered trees or evergreens, a trellis wall with vines, etc.?

Thanks for the update. Wish the news was better.

"Can you do anything to block the neighbor’s fence and track?"

I might be able to strategically plant some large conifers but the downside to that is while it may block the ugly I may end up even worse off -- a wall of evergreens ay end up boxing me in more so visually and block the breeze (wall of windows = wonderful fresh breeze)

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do at this point, it all just went down and I need time to process and sit on it for a while.

Oh what a shame. its awful being at the mercy of neighbors. I agree that a hedge to block the view of the fence is a good idea.

Maybe the people will turn out to be worth knowing. I hope you get a solution you can easily live with.

I guess a hedge of flowering shrubs might be prettier to look at than conifers.

Wonderful fresh breeze? With horses and their "deposits" there?

Wonderful fresh breeze? With horses and their "deposits" there?

I was speaking in this historical sense. But yea...good point. I used to have horses and the manure odor didn't bother me at all, but my pasture was not right up on top of the house. Now urine....that odor is a different story, especially if the animal is on a feed that magnifies the odiferousness (one of the horses I had was on alfalfa pellets --- weeehooo that guy's urine had a really strong stench).


"I guess a hedge of flowering shrubs might be prettier to look at than conifers."

I'm in a zone where shrubs are bare a fair portion of the year.

Husband just came home from driving his golfing buddy home. He asked how long they had lived in this development, and he said 51 years and husband said that he guessed there were a lot of different neighbors. Guy replied, " Yeah, and the worst just moved in with SIX young kids and three barking dogs! "Yikes! Makes me love my house and quiet street more than ever.

Photos?

@porkchop_z5b_MI The trick might be to plant an alternating row of evergreens & spring /summer flowering shrubs. Typically a view doesn’t need to be 100% blocked but rather softened. Something planted in closer vision field to stop the eye from going to the farther vision field. I’m sure you know all this but just offering as a reminder. The other reminder is that you were concerned the property might be subdivided. All things to say to yourself -“well, at least it’s not xyz”. Small comfort I know. As you said, you just need time to process….

"Photos?"

I don't want to post photos in order to respect their privacy. It's too fresh, someone might be able to put 2 + 2 together then whoops they're outed (along with me, I live next door).

What type of pasture fencing? How does a track mess up the view if it's on their land? I'm tryng to visuslize this and I don't see how either would block a view. Was it just barren land before or what?

Landscaping is the best way to ameliorate this new view. When most people imagine a screen of plants they think of a big hedge near the property line.

I suggest that you consider screening the view closer to your home. It doesn’t need to be a solid hedge. A mixed border/ bed/ beds is much more pleasing

There are MANY different evergreens (not just conifers!) that can be mixed with flowering shrubs and trees. This is a great time to find a good landscape architect - not just a landscaper - to develop a plan to enhance the beauty of your home.
This is very challenging for you right now, I fear the loss of my lovely neighbors as well and you have my complete sympathy! It is however an opportunity for creative solutions to be employed. Best of luck!

"What type of pasture fencing? How does a track mess up the view if it's on their land? I'm tryng to visuslize this and I don't see how either would block a view. Was it just barren land before or what?"

We're on acreage, but the lots are long and relatively narrow. Wide open spaces across the properties allow for expansive views and terrific, refreshing breezes. I wouldn't mind the fencing at all it weren't so close to my house. I had horses and a fenced-off pasture but it was well behind the house, so it's not like I'm not used to or familiar with all this. But, like I said the houses are relatively close together on that side, which is my great room, and they ran the fencing right up behind their house....literally -- they enclosed their deck within the pasture. So that's the problem, it's pretty much in my face every time I look out the window, as is the asphalt track, and it makes things look and feel more closed in, rather than being off a ways in the distance (like mine was).

"The other reminder is that you were concerned the property might be subdivided. All things to say to yourself -“well, at least it’s not xyz”."

Yes, I have reminded myself of this...it could have been a whole lot worse.

Good tips about mixing evergreen and deciduous shrubs. I'm not going to jump the gun and do anything yet. I'm hoping after a short while I'll just get used to it, which does happen -- somehow mentally we just block out the ugly and don't see it anymore.

Porkchop, I bet you get used to it. It's a lot harder when something is new. I had a very ugly cell phone tower put up between me and a beautiful view of distant hills. On Day 1 I almost wanted to cry. What was formerly a stunning vista of natural beauty was marred by a shiny silver metal spire.

Said shiny silver metal spire is still there, but it's now months later and I don't even really see it anymore. Yes it's still ugly, but I'm able to ignore it. I keep hoping Mother Nature tamps down the shiny-ness of it too though.

And I also consoled myself with the fact that at least it's quiet. ;) How many times do we read about new neighbors causing all kinds of auditory ruckus. It's not mowing at 6 am, it's not revving a motorcycle engine at all hours of the day and night, it's not a barking dog that is left unattended outside for hours, etc.

All of that is a long way of saying, I would personally not even entertain moving over JUST this. You don't know what you don't know - and so moving into a new house/neighborhood is also likely to come with unexpected negatives that you never even expected. Certainly if you hate other things about your current house, or you want to move somewhere for specific reasons then it would make sense this is the final nail for you. But aside from that, I have made my peace with my shiny spire. I value quiet neighbors!!

Porkchop, I feel your pain. After 25 years in our home, with a view of the saltwater (only one forested lot between us and the inlet) someone built a home closer than I ever thought was possible. I consoled myself by being thankful that I had enjoyed that beautiful waterfront view for 25 years without having to pay taxes on a waterfront lot! And I went to work like a mad woman planting trees and shrubs to block the house from view, which worked. Some shrubs are evergreen and not conifers, like Camellia, Escallonia, Photinia, Rhododendrons, Mahonia, Heavenly Bamboo (there is a tall one, a little harder to find than the dwarf that is so popular), etc. I planted those and interspersed with deciduous flowering shrubs like Forsythia, Witch Hazel, Kerria Japonica. I planted some Conifers in the mix, too. I don't know what grows in your area, but a real nursery could help. Deciduous plants are usually only leafless when you're not outside anyway, unless the view is prominent from your home,

The house next door (which isn't too close) is screened and I still have a peek-a-boo view of the water in some places.

I hope you find a solution that works for you.

"All of that is a long way of saying, I would personally not even entertain moving over JUST this."

Oh heavens no I wouldn't move over just this. It's DH that has commented "she's on my radar" -- he is not happy about the horses (associated smells) and not happy about the fence so we'll see. I mentioned it because I have talked to him about selling and paying cash for another house so we won't have a mortgage anymore. He is very concerned about having a mortgage in retirement. Our home value skyrocketed so we have a lot of equity, but the problem is so did everyone else's so where would we go to get what we want at a lesser price unless it's the middle of nowhere -- plenty of nowheres in my state, but we don't want to be too far out. Plus we love where we live. But you never know, this might prompt him to explore this more.

"Yes it's still ugly, but I'm able to ignore it."

I'm hoping that's will happen.

"After 25 years in our home, with a view of the saltwater (only one forested lot between us and the inlet) someone built a home closer than I ever thought was possible. I consoled myself by being thankful that I had enjoyed that beautiful waterfront view for 25 years without having to pay taxes on a waterfront lot!"

Oh, that really stinks. You took it better than I think I would have. I travel a lot for work, and I see so much building and wrecking of views, changing population dynamics, shift in lifestyle, and gentrification pricing the average Joe out because more often than not it's hotels or mega-mansions being built on the desirable (albeit expensive) waterfront properties.

Sorry Pork Chop, I know it is a change you didnt want, but I would give anything to live next door to a horse pasture. It's all in what we are each used to. I got used to a horder living next door, inside and out, and no HOA. I used to be real upset about it, but I wish I had the time back to add to my life, that I spent fussing and fuming.

"...but I would give anything to live next door to a horse pasture."

Thank you for that. It made me stop and think and reassess my attitude towards it all.

It's been about a week and a half now, and my eyes are getting used to things. While I wouldn't have done it in that layout or fenching choice, I suppose it's not that bad as I initially felt,, and it is picturesque seeing the horses in the distance out the window.

porkchop, I am so glad you are seeing some positive in this. Horses are usually such peaceful creatures and at least I can't help but smile when I see them just being themselves.