Exploding Roses!!! Black Thumbs!!! Crooked Deals of the Season!!!

Seems like navigating the treacherous waters of these new, 'Who shot John?' online nurseries is to be likened to what Dorothy encountered as she persevered towards The Emerald City to consult the wizard, The Great Oz.

If there's anything to be learned, I think it's to proceed cautiously, and don't forget to exercise plain, old, common sense.

Besides dealing with some highly suspect nurseries, we're coveting their spectacularly intriguing, mysterious, often Eastern bred rose offerings. This weakens our will to resist.

Many of these roses are hothouse, florist's roses, and are not going to be suitable for American rose gardeners who do not have the blessing of growing their roses in Rose Paradise, such as in certain unguent locales in the US South West and parts of the West Coast, but must deal with extremely challenging growing conditions, as I and many other Roses Forum members must do.

Moses.

Exactly, Moses. Plus, I think that there are some things that we just aren't supposed to have! I keep on feeling like there are some people out there who believe themselves so privileged that they have a "right" to everything they desire." Besides dealing with some highly suspect nurseries, we're coveting their spectacularly intriguing, mysterious, often Eastern bred rose offerings. This weakens our will to resist." Sometimes I get really tempted to go for some shady deal just to get a rose that "looks so beautiful" IN A PHOTOGRAPH. I find it helpful to boost my will power reminding myself that, no, it's a risky idea, the rose may very well not actually look like the snazzy photo nor tolerate my conditions, and, above all THERE ARE SOME THINGS I'M JUST NOT MEANT TO HAVE.

Speaking of the climate issue in relation to rose nurseries and the plants they offer, my thought is that I’m happy to see nurseries with different offerings. Some people only want old roses and I understand that. They’re charming, have history and are often resilient. I am deeply grateful for those who are supplying these roses to us. Some nurseries and breeders are focusing on supplying highly disease resistant varieties for those in high disease pressure areas. Wonderful! Other nurseries and breeders are offering boutique style roses for those who want them and are able to give them the care they require, either because there climate is amenable or they have greenhouses etc to replicate the climate they need. I’m happy for these nurseries as well!
Options are very nice. No one can blame their lack of self control or realism on some nursery out there advertising with beautiful photos. Sure, there are some nurseries out there that aren’t operating with integrity and I support not patronizing them, but I also get a bit weary of hearing some people objecting to those who offer roses who don’t do well in their own garden or locality. Why should a nursery out west limit itself to only roses that do well in gardens back east and resist Black Spot? We don’t need to feel guilty about growing roses that don’t grow well elsewhere. I’m personally not able to grow many of the highly disease resistant Kordes roses here: they grow huge bushes but few flowers. Some of the “ boutique “ roses grow fine here, so I grow them. Some of you gardeners back east grow beautiful Kordes roses and I am grateful you have nurseries that provide them for you! No sense in getting resentful that they are offering roses that don’t grow well in my garden.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge the chinese and japanese roses, until you have tried them. Granted, I only have a few, but they've done very well for me. I'm pretty confident they have english roses in their lineage given their flower form, fragrance, and habit. But with the ones I have, they seem to like the PA summers here more than some of my DAs, with better heat and blackspot resistance. Royal palace, for example, has flowers that look identical to The Prince, but with more vigor, very flexible canes and an arching growth habit.

Seconding Judi, options are wonderful. With the exception of the Kordes roses, I love a wide variety of different roses (Kordes, for me, are stingy with blooms - they're just healthy leafy bushes.) I enjoy trying different ones and have been surprised with how well some have done, including a few florist roses which I thought for sure would do terrible here. And while I'm not super keen on florist roses, I am grateful to have a few and it's nice having a reputable source for them through different nurseries, like A&A. The more offerings we have, the better in the long run. It helps nurseries stay afloat when they can offer something that other nurseries cannot, and we as the consumer have more of a selection.

@Elestrial 7a I love the variety and it is necessary! I love most all roses-japanese, Chinese, garden, standards, minis, knockouts, and true blooms 🥰 i LOVE flowers/ plant energy! I do not appreciate compacted clay import balls, scammers, or their influencers! FWIW- JiSe, Lilas, Kaori Kazari, Peach Dye have all done well in my 8a full southern exposure garden and I believe A&A to be the only option for bare roots beyond David Austin or wholesale for the small scale grower group! I know the GRF influencers try hard to put a bad name on Heirloom, but they have always been great in my garden -the 3 replacements over 3 years have been easy breezy- love them💚

What are compacted clay import balls?

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley YouTube shows, but clay?/ mud (cement like) compacted around the roots of those import bushes they buy dirt cheap from whereever (rose explosion supplier? ebay?) seems like a whole ring of scammers., 🤷🏻‍♀️ kate roses had the same clayballs on all that I received. I have yet to meet anybody who says they like the balls or are good with soaking the clay ball off of the roots, but I’m open and would love to hear from the fans!

I don't think I've ever gotten any plants with a dense clay medium like you are describing. You have mentioned a YouTube video a few times, can you post a link?

@Elestrial 7a it seems you have been blessed beyond measure with roses! If you join rose vendor feedback - you will learn more than you will ever care to know about the nasty vendors and all the gross with the ”lady” rose vendors , be very careful though the predators are thick! My rose garden goals brought all the creeps and I certainly was not buying the largest of orders, but bought 24 (greater then half of the varieties picked by Jian as she knew my goals and so I trusted she knew which would be best for our zone/ my small upick event goals) all her choosing taking place while I walked around all happy hippy, a little shocked at her ”garden” so again only 24, but $40 per from the import scammer my black thumb nursery and she pawned off 4 earth angels😂😂😂SHE GOT ME GOOD- karma is already working on her- I love Witherspoon roses charlotte close down) then 37 from membership and trash product scammer grace rose farm and 8 from the other import scammer kate roses! link as requested -hopefully your mind and heart will be opened just a little. Think about one of your grandmas using roses to heal through grief or cancer and they buy some bushes to try their hand at plant/ garden/ energy healing? How gross these “women” really are. How they love to hurt for personal gain and then the glitter poppers standing firm on another human’s practices🤯 The scam/ hurt cycle continues while those women watch the yous of the internet pop glitter in their victims’ eyes but hey you got a refund 🎉https://youtube.com/shorts/RngpQ5yVToI?si=DGiXVgukXZ4zMLtA

I'm not sure what you mean about popping glitter in victims eyes? I never received a refund from Black Thumb, just a replacement for a rose that died. Sharing my experience does not invalidate yours.

I see what you mean about the compacted medium. I have gotten roses like that from quite a few vendors, I've always assumed they were in the ground and dug up to be shipped. But I just uppot them into new medium so it's not a big deal to me. To be honest though, I find the rose itself to be more concerning - just one cane with questionable quality. Best of luck

@Elestrial 7a questionable yes! and refund /replacement -all the same and I’ve not heard of it taking place for anybody, but you 🎉and you are very active here, so things that make you go hmmmmm?

Simply put,

glitter makes a huge mess and the good stuff is made of glass to maybe really hurt! I am happy to hear of your success,

I certainly do not want anybody to lose money, time, or energy or feel stress (it’s a killer, literally) over roses, ever!! I DO NOT want any recommendation by me to lead to stress/ loss/ an unhappy person! Thanks again for your info!

Compacted medium on root balls has never been a problem for me, ctallen. I have gotten roses from many vendors and they all grow well for me. I truly think that roses are resilient plants and with sensible gardening approaches, will grow fine regardless of which vendor they come from. I also feel like your demeanor is less than respectful in regard to what you call “gross women.” But then, I may be misunderstanding you, as I seem to have trouble figuring out what many of your sentences are actually saying.

@judijunebugarizonazn8 175+ roses and many vendors and those are the dogs! Respectfully, I do not support or have a lick of respect for any scammers in any industry and I feel the exact same way about your chime in as you do mine, also good try on the grammar insult! 😘 GRF team members all do that, by saying really dumb stuff like my professor would crack my hands with a ruler if I had ever formed a sentence like that, so nothing new!! You can not be CLASSY ever when you support a scammer by picking apart their victims👀😂 Judi, that’s like going to epstein island or a diddy party and saying you had no clue!!! How much money have you been scammed out of, exactly? ✌️ I meant what I said, I think all scammers and their glitter poppers are GROSS to cause stress, and all to push trash product for some other random human’s gains OR for the sad freebie chemical cuts or for a few spindly starrose bare roots potted up to make a video- all sad sad sad🤣 GRF has a whole army waiting on their karma, it is certainly a problem in the rose world, but you happily shared your opinion for all to see as I did mine, in many places to warn/ help! Please share the names of all your approved clay ball vendors?

Ctallen, I don’t care to engage in combative conversation with anyone. I do appreciate healthy interchange of views and perspectives, but I don’t feel that’s happening here. I respectfully bow out of the room.

I ordered from this nursery and received my order earlier last year. All the roses looked amazing but the root balls were tiny. I ordered 6 roses and three of them died immediately. Right now one of my roses has not grown at all since I received it. I think she grows them all indoors in a green house and so the roses are weak.

@Z10Socal thank you, you are right as they do start in that greenhouse and unfortunately, we are not alone, others in rose vendor feedback confirmed the same when I posted a warning there and I am sorry she got you too! I have one (capability) that has still never bloomed. She , Jian, by her own admission pumps the balls full of chemicals/ fertilizer and pots them up in city trash compost (mine had an awful amount of little black spiders in the compost, but of course she said they came from my ground 😂😂😂) not in any other vendors‘ pots, but ok🙄 Jian is an awfully GROSS person, but that is just my honest opinion from my actual experience of my time spent with her at pickup, the message history I have with her, from what others have shared with me, and from dealing with her trash import products.

SoCal, I think you meant your last post for the thread about Freedom Gardens and not about Black Thumb..

@judijunebugarizonazn8 I finally 100% agree with you! Your judgemental, grammar insults are noted and being as you have zero experience with this vendor, I thank you for bowing out of the room. Gross people hurt others for gain/ fun!

Yes you are right Judi, I just deleted it. My houzz on my phone is acting up ..I have had to leave and refresh it so many times😅😞

The owner of My Black Thumb Nursery has never been rude to me. She was supposed to hold a rose for me and forgot. She supposedly is holding it for me this spring. So hopefully that turns out well. I just wish her root balls were bigger. I don't get why you think the compost dirt is bad. I'm sorry about your experience.

@Z10Socal Thank you, my garden will still take my breath away regardless of their attempts to hurt! And now we have to watch out for a freedom gardens too?? 🤯 thanks for the warning, I am positive I will never get scammed again, but at very minimum, others can read this and are now warned! This is how we save stress and heartache! 🙏💚 The city compost dirt is actual trash and then the spiders (her garden is surrounded by trees so again 🤷🏻‍♀️, but good luck with yours) and to each their own, we all have different goals (my garden is no spray) and if you like city trash compost, I love it for you and your garden! The compact clay balls are bad because, once again, she pumps them full of fertilizer (she proudly calls it medicine🤣) then they come to your garden to die in less than 6 months! One loss won’t hurt your pocketbook at all if it dies, maybe just your feelings and leave you questioning your gardening skills. 🤯 I went in blind to her scams, due too much hush hush (cover up for fear of looking stupid for losing the money or like a bad unskilled gardener 🤯🤷🏻‍♀️) in the rose groups!🙄 Let’s hope she keeps reading all these and feels a little bit ashamed and does better business for you ladies and whoever you all choose to recommend her to and the whole cedar grove/ Triad NC area!! 🙏💚🤞 no other human loses a dime to her for trash product! I would be tickled pink! I love happy people! Good luck!

Freedom Gardens is not a scam.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR IMHO if you knowingly sell trash product that will die shortly after received plus no warranty- that is a scam! 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Z10Socal 👀 whomever this is might disagree being as they caught a whiff of the foul. Remember Jian is still courting you/ working to get your coins!!! she already took ours!!! DUE-film6964 said : “The nastiness was overspilling in her reply”

That has nothing to do with Freedom Gardens.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR I disagree, how do you know its not the same exact type scam??? WILD!!! Did your business supply the plants? z10 just said half died🤯

Those that died were from a female seller, z10 said. Freedom Gardens is Peter Schneider.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR I hate that for Peter if wrong and she said she made a mistake, yes. Hopefully z10 will care as much to clear the name for freedom gardens as she tried for My Black Thumb! @Z10Socal From whom did you buy your 6 with small root balls that half died, please? I am just trying to save, even if only for one roselover, stress/money/heartache- all is gross! Also I am very open to another word besides gross!!

If you want to shake your head in disbelief, just go to TEMU, and peruse their offerings of live rose bushes.....and don't forget to price check rose seeds too, while you're there. As @ctallen79 has so earnestly emphasized repeatedly in this post, which assertion cannot be disputed, the bold faced sellers (undeniably motivated by sheer avarice), of extremely questionable rose bushes, can only be upheld by a cruel, heartless person of equally despicable character.

Think of the many thousands of TEMU live rose purchasers that have been scammed. Pitiful!!!

Moses.

ctallen79,

Don't be discouraged. If you have prevented just one rose lover, who has read your post here on the Roses Forum, from making a possibly regrettable rose purchase from a questionable online 'nursery,' you have accomplished a lot.

Moses.

@Moses, Pitt PA, cold W & hot-humid S, z6 Thank you; that is truly my only goal! These scammers and their glitter popper, attack soldiers almost turned me away from roses, but they will have to try much harder than just insulting me or my grammar. I have never been a fan of those that think they are better, smarter or prettier than others; that is just gross! I am healing and getting stronger daily due to roses and those humans are just noise. Thanks again!

@ctallen79 I think it's admirable that you are trying to prevent others from getting scammed or receiving poor roses but I do think you are being both very combative and defensive at the same time with regards to Judi's remarks and Elestrial's honest review. You weren't insulted nor were you put down for your grammar. It's simply hard to understand from your comments the point you're trying to make with all the run on sentences, emojis, and personal attacks. I'm not trying to attack you, I just think it would serve you better to just stick to the facts which in your case is that you received a rose(s) with a very small root ball, that had pests in the soil, and possibly and probably some form of canker or dieback (based on your youtube video).

I do agree with Bart Bart and Moses's points. We aren't supposed to grow everything and i think that applies especially to certain florist roses which are meant to be grown in the greenhouse and we should be wary of introducing pests/diseases from plants that we have reasonable basis to believe are coming from abroad. With regards to florist roses, there are obviously exceptions like Ben and Elestrial and others on this forum that are really experienced and know how to take care of them but most of us (I speak for myself especially) are meant to grow garden roses.

I do wish you the best on your healing journey and express sympathy for the bad roses you've received.

@knightsgambit Thanks for your chime in! I like emojis/ fun- I’m a very colorful person with wild, colorful CA roots 💚 I am not in school, thank God, so those run on sentences are for you and others to waste time judging ( I get your point) but they are not for me to worry, so much about, but saving a rose lover, I do worry and care a lot about. As for insults, when someone says they can not understand me, plus they have no dog in the fight, it feels very judgmental, insulting, and combative. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I was/ am happy to read all everybody has to say, that is what the boards are for, but I believe that even through my terrible grammar, run on sentences, and unintentional attacks, at very least, I shared visually something that may help or save a roselover. I do not want to personally attack anybody, but I stand firm on glitter poppers, they cause messes! Also, we did actually get clear on the fact that Elestrial is the only person I know of to receive a replacement, so of course, Elestrial will sing MBTN praises and of course, Jian sees the activity on this and all the boards, she’s a hustler! Thank you for your sending your best, your insight, opinions, and sympathy. 💚

"We aren't supposed to grow everything and i think that applies especially to certain florist roses which are meant to be grown in the greenhouse"

Remember 20 years ago when a lot of folks were going nuts trying to find a source for 'Leonidas', in the hopes they'd get those amazing 'Teddy Bear' colored HT style blooms!?! It was a dreadful plant when grown in the open garden, and the color of the blooms was (often, but not always) apalling.

Many of the cultivars selected for cut flower production are not released to the public for good reasons.

Hear, hear, Paul!

Moses.

Thank you all! I believe the scammers derive a great sense of satisfaction from seeing everybody talk about how hard it is to grow certain roses unless you are gifted and equal satisfaction watching the back and forth. JMHO and certainly not said to argue Paul’s point. In my experience, roses are beasts and want to grow really bad, but I tend to mine daily and this is only my 3rd year, but it is in fact, all I do 🤷🏻‍♀️ Also what I purchased from Jian was none too special (posted below) only special in the fact that she picked most of it and i have the message where she told me that she pumps them full of medicine! I only found the clay balls on a few after I was clued in by others and started to investigate. DNR are the dead plants and without an asterisk means it never bloomed.

Hedgerow Earth angel.*

Hedgerow Earth angel.*

Hedgerow Earth angel.*

Hedgerow Earth angel.

Flow.*

Thierry Marx.*

DA Ab Darby.*

Mabella. DNR

Miyabi. DNR

Sunshine antike.*

Koko loko.*

Lilas.*

Juliette.*

Shepherazad.*

Notre dame.*

Coffee latte.* DNR

Louise. DNR

DA Tea Clipper. DNR

Milky pearl. DNR

Red Apple*

Capability.

Huan Zi.* DNR

Ji se. *

DA juliet*

Climber #9 Sabrina.*

What is hedgerow earth angel? Is that Kordes earth angel?

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley It’s just what she said /suggested/ sold me on when she pawned the 4 of them off on me. She said I needed them for a hedgerow🤣🤣 Obviously part of this is my fault for being so trusting, but we are not located too far from each other and she knew my goals, we will definitely see each other at some NC farm something, so who would think she’d be so gross? I even brought her a tiny gift of new gloves and a cockscomb seed head, so nothing fancy, but I was raised in the south and thats what you do! 🤷🏻‍♀️

ctallen79 I purchased six plants from My black Thumb Nursery and 3 died. Yes the plants have small root balls. Besides Elestrial I received a credit for one of the roses that died. That is the one I'm hoping she is holding for me next year. I don't think I will purchase from her again since half of my ordered died. However, I don't think it's a scam since I did receive the order. Where with other sellers I did not receive the order or my refund. The product is just overpriced in my opinion.

CTAllen and SoCal, I'm sorry to hear you both had such poor experiences with Black Thumb. I hope you're able to reach a resolution with her.

I promise I am not trying to invalidate anyone's negative experiences with this vendor - just sharing my experience. I am not very active on Houzz or Facebook so I really don't think Jian would be interested in trying to impress little old me.

CTAllen, I'm not sure where you're located, but Earth Angel did not bloom for me until her 2nd year, and is pretty stingy still for me 4 years later. But I don't seem to have the magic touch when it comes to Kordes roses. Hopefully yours blooms next year. She would probably make a lovely hedgerow, although she will get BIG. I wonder if pegging her will help coax more blooms.

Unlike some very talented rose gardeners in here, I really only have a handful of florist roses and the oldest are only 3 years old, so I'm definitely a novice when it comes to them. I have tried to choose varieties that would hopefully do well in my climate - like Ashley, which may be why I've lucked out.

Elestrial it's okay. I'm part to blame too I'm sure since the other three did survive. I'm happy she gave me a credit for one of them.

@z10 thank you for clearing up Peter’s freedom gardens name! And I now know of 2 people that like Jian’s company due to refunds or replacements. 🙏 I stand firm that a scam, to me, is when a subpar human sells poor quality anything and offers no warranty. Moneygrab style- JMHO

@Elestrial 7a I do not believe Jian cares to impress anybody and that is obvious, but strategy she has learned well from grf and you are kind and love roses, so you are perfect for her scheme and she sees all, I promise! I am located in 8a humid NC, just down the road from ole jian, so she knows those ballers are terrible here and positive that‘s why she offloaded 4 on me! Jian knew exactly what she was doing when she was handpicking her inventory to pawn off on me and it‘s all good- karma takes care of these sorts of things, always. I rebuke the fact that I did anything wrong with her imports, they all made it through the winter and grew green then petered off as it got really hot (so 6 or 7 months) just like the grace rose farm bushes when they were telling everybody to add the alfalfa to the pot and so you get a few blooms and they die - no root development! The true glitter poppers have zero shame and come at folks ferocious like attack dog/ bully style blaming the gardeners for their sponsors‘ poor business practices- it is gross! As for the Glitter popper term, in my mind, it is a general term for ALL grf influencers as they have caused quite the mess in the rose world, (like a bachelorette party trashing an Airbnb with no cares at all)! I am sorry if you felt attacked, you have offered nothing, but kindness and facts and I am grateful to you.

Ctallen79, I never said I like Jian..I said I don't think it's a scam because I did receive the roses. Again I said it's over priced and I would not be purchasing more roses from her. I previously purchased 6 roses from her , so I spent a lot of money on her roses.

However, she showed some responsibility for some of the roses fault and gave me one credit. When a seller tries to work with one I appreciate the effort. I have had several sellers not show any interest in working with their defective product.

I received NO money or roses from Peter at freedom gardens so my experience with Jian is way better.

I get your frustration since I have been buying tons of roses the last 7 years and have had good and bad experiences. I think everyone's experience is valid. I did not read all your comments here but you are upset and it looks like you are taking it out on everyone.

@z10 you did not read all my comments, but you have alot to say about me and it seems as though you have some weird axe to grind with me- that is a you problem, keep grinding 😘 I am most certainly mad that the schemes continue and the glitter poppers work so hard to invalidate, condemn, and shame folks, but more so I’d say disgusted with all the gross women that help facilitate the ugly! To see all this play out is 🍌Period!!👏👏👏 Also, it seems to me that you think your 7 years worth of buying tons of roses and all your rose opinions are more valid than my personal facts! Good luck avoiding the scammers!

Ctallen, you seem to want to draw the worst conclusion with MBT. From the information you've provided, it doesn't seem like she did anything with malicious intent. When you reached out to her initially, were you combative and angry? Tone makes a big impact: people are more receptive when they're not met with hostility. I'd encourage reaching out again in a calm tone and see if you can work something out. Both me and (hopefully) Z10 were/are able to get a replacement from her, so there is hope you could work something out as well.

Not all who support a vendor are 'glitter poppers'. I have not seen anyone in this thread bully, belittle, or blame you for the unfortunate situation with your roses.

@Elestrial 7a This is my tone when I have been hoodwinked- always! I 💯 know she is the worst and I want nothing to do with her or her energy, but thank you for all of your opinions, the repeat suggestion, and of course, good luck to you, Elestrial- you have your facts and I have mine!

"I get your frustration since I have been buying tons of roses the last 7 years and have had good and bad experiences. I think everyone's experience is valid. I did not read all your comments here but you are upset and it looks like you are taking it out on everyone."

I literally said everyone's experience is valid!!! I mentioned my experience only to sympathize with you. You are just being combative for no reason.

If everyone here is telling you that you are coming off strong then it's you not us.

It's not always your fault that sellers can be shady and again I sympathize with you since it has happened to me. There are some bad sellers out there. I hope you use Elestrial's suggestion next time and receive better service. I wish you luck!

@Z10Socal 👏👏👏 have the room!!! This is a waste of my energy! 😘

@ctallen79 I get that you had a really bad experience with the nursery — that would frustrate anyone. But the way this thread is going is putting people on edge, and it’s making it hard to have a constructive conversation. No one here is your enemy; we’re just trying to keep things balanced so the thread is actually useful.

If you want your complaint to reach the right audience, The Garden Watchdog is the place to post it — that’s where it will actually make a difference. This forum isn’t the nursery, and it doesn’t help anyone when the discussion turns into a battle.

@Paul Barden Thanks for your input. My experience, even unpolished and combative, is relevant to this community and I have every right to speak on it here. I’m not interested in debating tone, I love my tone for me! I’m simply providing information that protects other buyers. That’s the end of my participation on this point.

My experience was very negative. I received clay imports potted in poor-quality material and lost a lot of money. I also know others with similar outcomes. Aside from one person who received mother plants, I have not seen any genuine success stories.