Ian, I don't know. My knowledge of OGRs is limited. I only have a pretty good handle on the Portland rose, Jacques Cartier, aka. Marchesa Boccella....I know that there's controversy about this rose's alternate name really actually being a different rose.

Anyhow, if you are not yet growing Jacques Cartier, it's the rose no OGR rose gardener should be without.

My failure with Jacques Cartier was possibly due to its being OR. It just never took off for me, but boy did it grow magnificently on R. multIflora root stock not far from me. 6 magnificent, well behaved bushes that gave more roses than imaginable.

I brought up Jacques Cartier because it looked so much like your rose in the photo. JC was larger bloomed but still under 3", and lighter pink.

Moses.

@Moses Making me want JC even more! Crazy enough, I was SOO close to buying it! But right before it shipped I canceled my order & got Rose de Rescht instead..How's the fragrance on JC? I will certainly try & get it next year...

Thanks Moses!

JC is a stinkbomb :-) I haven't grown a lot of roses you can smell from the other side of the yard, but that was one.

Next year, when your rose blooms, take pictures of stipules, thorns, recepticles and all the other technical details that go into an ID. People want to start with the flowers, but very often that just goes down an unproductive rabbit hole, as you have found out.

Ian,,

I believe it is Bella Donna. You are spot on.

All photos on internet I looked at look exactly like your Bella Donna. The size looks the same, bluish foliage, sonetimes light green or darker, & foliage on old garden roses can be big very bushy & may flop some. Many old garden roses bloom only 4-6 weeks such as Bella Also, damask roses, such as Bella Donna, have the strongest fragrance!

HelpMeFind has a great photo & infonto for you on Bella Donna , same as your rose.

HMF below…

I have had quite a few OGRs and they all get big, bushy, super fragrant, some bloom only 4-6 weeks in a year. Bella Dinba has a classic OGR shape, very frilly and quite a pink beauty!

@mad_gallica I was two steps ahead! Already took snaps of all the technical details probably needed

@KittyNY6 Howdy, nice to meet you!

I believe you may be right, honestly but tell me what YOU think.

I thought the same as you, I thought the rose that has been in my family for over 5 generations to be 'Bella Donna'. BUT.. I noticed things were still just "off". I read on HMF that the foliage was of "pea green" and "absent of the typical blueish tint found in other damask", obviously different from my rose. Second was the bush habit, I saw pictures of Bella Donna and the bush habit was lax. Let me know what you think!

Thank you all

Also! My Houzz appeared to glitch AGAIN! This post was duplicated...So I truly apologize for that. ----- This is the main post though, I guess 😅

Is there any change it could be a Gallica? The short upright growth would fit. Also, the shape of the opening buds remind me of Cramoisi Picoté, though it's obviously not that.

Cramoisi Picoté:

Bellagallica,

I think your rose is gorgeous, but too frilly.

Ian,

I saw some almost pea green photos and almost bluish photos from photos on internet-your rose leaves look identical in some colors. Much of your leaves have more deeper color. Nitrogen makes leaves darker green. You fertilize yoyr rose well -it has enough nitrogen. I think the sun in photos also effects it’s color of leaves, too. . I really looks like Bella Donna, I am sure.

More internet photos… look at leaves & size of rose.

Your Bella Donna’s leaves look most like the first photo here with deeper colored leaves.

No, it's definitely not CP, I just thought there was a similarity in the shape of the buds and thought there might be other gallicas that open like that. But, yeah, I see on HMF that Bella Donna has that flat, crushed look to the opening buds, too.

@bellegallica This mystery rose has no visible Gallica DNA influence. It seems to be Damask with perhaps Centiflolia influence

@KittyNY6 Thanks for the suggestion, honestly I am starting to believe that you are right that this rose is Bella Donna

Ian,

You can't go wrong with Rose de Rescht. I wish its bloom was larger or its foliage smaller. Its tailored bush shape, which it maintains with little help, is not often encountered....no octopus canes with RdR. Very dependable repeat, winter hardy, pretty disease free (could need a little help regarding the dreaded black spot), and RdR packs a potent fragrance.

Remember to look for a grafted Jacques Cartier...whichever root stock does best in your area.

Moses.

@Moses I can't wait to see RdR in bloom! I've heard it's small blooms are somewhat disappointing though.

Since I'm growing RdR is Jacques cartier a big difference?

RdR has perfect small blooms.

Jacques Cartier is very upright, strong but short necked blooms, in growth habit. 4' x 30" was its mature height here. It actually developed a trunk here. The bushes came from old Pickering Nursery, Canada. Their grafters were flown in from Belgium during grafting season and grafted so low down that the bare root bushes of JC looked own root, not grafted. The trunks these Jacques Cartiers grew were top growth. No basal canes came from ground level which would have been multiflora root stock growth. The trunks just kept increasing in diameter year by year until they were 3+ inches across! New laterals came about 8" up from ground level on the trunks, exposing the trunks beautifully.

Treat yourself to a great, easy OGR, Ian, and put in a grafted Jacques Cartier for years of enjoyment.

Moses.

Welp you've done it, Moses. I will buy me JC when I can! Perhaps it is a good parent plant, too...🤔

Thanks @Moses, @Sheila

Pickering Nurseries budded all of their Gallicanae types* onto R. laxa, not R. multiflora. Joseph told me in person one day back in 1993.

*includes the Damasks.

Ugh, can't wait for spring, then. I bought Rose de Rescht from Antique Rose Emporium, which by the way is amazing.

This isn't my picture of RdR but look how beautiful 

Ok these pictures are making desperate for more roses. How do these antique do with blackspot? Any good enough to be grown no spray in blackspot hell? I want the scent.

@dianela7analabama Perfect question that I'm happy to help with.

Firstly, I prefer OGR (Old Garden Roses) over Moderns but that's not to say they come with their faults:

Modern roses have been bred for hundreds of years to have GREAT disease resistance, many types of bloom forms & with fragrance.

However..

Old Garden roses have God-like fragrance, PERFECT bloom form (flat, cupped, button eye) that I prefer over the high centered Hybrid Tea. But as I said above...Many come with their "faults". Many lack disease resistance & repeat blooming.

If you want repeat blooming OGR than look into the Portland, Bourbon & Hybrid Perpetual class(s).
​

Modern roses are perfect (no rose is perfect but they come close), but they aren't true survivors. Old Garden roses are the true survivors of the rose world. Seriously. Try to find a Modern rose (Hybrid Tea, Floribunda, Grandiflora, miniatures..etc) that is pass the age of 65..They truly won't last to see your great great grandchildren.

My 5th great grandmother planted an Old garden rose here and I believe she got it from her mom. Guess what? After a century it's still alive. It's a once bloomer, too.

Hope this helped,

Regards, Ian Stewart

"Try to find a Modern rose (Hybrid Tea, Floribunda, Grandiflora, miniatures..etc) that is pass the age of 65..They truly won't last to see your great great grandchildren."

Actually, let me introduce you to 'Tiffany'! Possibly Lindquist's most famous rose, it is now 73 years old. I have my specimen (from Pickering) which has lived in near total neglect for 27 years and yet it thrives, even in my Blackspot-ridden climate.

It's true that Hybrid Teas have become — in many ways — "cookie cutter" roses, and as has always been the way, many will disappear from catalogs within a decade and are rarely ever seen again. But that doesn't mean that 5% of them won't survive for many years and persist in commerce. Oh, and I would also like to add Herb Swim's 79 year old 'Sutters Gold' to that list of aged (and worthy) survivors! Even ’Fragrant Cloud’ is now 63 years old, and you can bet that it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

@dianela7analabama Can 'Rose de Rescht' be grown in "blackspot hell"? That depends. It seems to vary from location to location and many factors have an influence. Here in the PNW, many, many roses Blackspot terribly and will actually die from being repeatedly stripped of foliage by disease. But for me, 'Rose de Rescht' has been rarely affected by Blackspot, with only an occasionally infected leaf on older foliage. I do not spray it. However, I had two specimens of it and the one planted in full sunlight got Blackspot quite badly, and the one planted in open shade with a couple hours of late morning sun does beautifully. It's very hard to predict how it will perfrom in someone else's garden — you really have to find out by trying it yourself.

Holy molly...Okay, I knew 'Sutter's Gold' was a legendary HT but not like that, same with Tiffany. Quite the shocker.

I always thought that Sutters Gold was a rose similar to that of 'Peace', which I think is very cool.

I also add a vote towards Rose de Rescht as a black spot resistant specimen. I have saw people grow it near me and reported to be extremely disease resistant..And shade tolerant! However I do see some people absolutely hate it & say it is disease ridden all year. So who truly knows? Paul's right, you'll just have to see how it is in your garden

Regards, Ian Stewart

Here, Rose de Retched, is the garden version of the Mendoza line. Anything that blackspots worse than it, gets officially asked to leave. Maybe 5 years ago, I noticed that it had gotten the message and was removing itself.

The issues with the northern OGRs in the south are:

• almost all of the repeat bloomers are between very and extremely blackspot prone
• once bloomers tend to shut down when it gets hot. We often get our first heat wave at the 4th of July. Very few of my once bloomers last much past that.
• once bloomers *require* a dormant period. I don't know that anybody has done serious research, like that done with stone fruits, to see exactly what that means. Let's just say they were miserable in Dallas.

Now I have seen Zephrine Drohin grown fairly successfully in Dallas. That may be a line of thought worth pursuing.

Thank you all for your replies!

I really love the look of these old garden roses and I do not mind once bloomers. I will find a good spot for Rose de Rescht and see how it does here. I am in the south, but we are zone 7 and get several weeks below freezing with days in the single digits which should help. I don’t mind if the roses don’t bloom after the initial flush because I get Japanese beetles anyway.

Rpse de Rescht "apparently" prefers the south, and I have heard so from many sources. So good luck.

Also in warmer climates you can force your OGR into dormancy with a lot of methods, e.g. leave stripping after *blank * date, stop feeding, pruning, so on. Though I feel like pruning would stress an OGR out in a warm climate too much. I need to do more research on this topic, though. Though as we all know, these old European roses NEED their cold. Some not as others, (looking at YOU, aka the damask group as they fair better in the heat.)

Ian

& Dianela,

My favorite OGRs are:

La Reine, Yolanda of Aragon, Mme Isaac Perierre, , and Madame Dubost.

Mme Dubost , A Bourbon, very big blooms, super fragrant. Repeat bloomer.

Mme Issac Perierre, a Bourbon, looks same to me as Mme Dubost, but 9 ft climber; although can be kept a bush, super fragrant! Repeat bloomer.

Yolande de Aragon, super bug ruffly round puff blooms-my favotite blooms! Super fragrant! Repeat bloomer.

Variegatta de Bologna, gorgeous big red/white striped blooms-sensational-gorgeous! 4-6 weeks bloomer-once a year. Very fragrant.

They all can have BS; however, remove bottom leaves and I only sprayed twice in season. They bloomed and looked beautiful a ton in NY, zone 6. I didn’t find BS to be much of a problem.

They all are super super fragrant! My dream best OGR. All huge blooms! La Reine bloomed flushes at least 3-4 times and all the way to Nov end by 3rd year-fantastic!

I removed several OGR that were once bloomers or small blooms including JC ans Comte de Chambord. I like the huge fragrant plump bloomers better which I mentioned are the best to me.

However, there are many beautiful smaller blooming OGRs with unique shapes. Since OGRs have very large leafy bushy habits, I like the big blooms to see them better in a garden setting.

La Reine

Mme Dubost

Mme Perierre,

Yolande de Aragon, BIGGEST BLOOMS!!

Variegatta di Bologna

I also had Tuscany Superb, a once bloomer, but didn’t make it in 1st season, my weather wasn’t very good. I had quiteca few other reoeat bloomers, but I don’t have room for them as big bushes unless they are ultimately spectacular all season.

@KittyNY6 Thank you for sharing those pictures! To die for stunning. Also what a beautiful collection of old roses.

I must ask...How is Yolande D'Aragon? I nearly ordered it along with Jacques Cartier but got neither the last minute. Is it a rose worthy of my garden next year?

Regards, Ian Stewart.

I just posted a frw more photos above….

Yolande is kinda my top favorite because such big plume blooms & fragrance. i put her in the middle of the bed because she OGR s are big & she’s the center of attention. . In secind year she really starts blooming big time for me! so garden worthy! She’s Queen!

Yolade de Aragon

Just a section of the tall bush. Many more blooms on it! Repeat bloomer! Strong heavenly fragrance.

Her blooms are 5-6”! Much more beautiful in person!

When I grew 'Yolande d'Aragon' many years ago, it was the poster child of Blackspot. One of the worst HP's for disease I have ever grown: it often had all three of the major fungal diseases.

Sigh, sad to here but I expected it not to be the best for disease resistance.

Well, as a well known Rosarian on the forum often says about rose varieties: "Location, location, location! Yolande d'Aragon does very well here in the South Okanagan of British Columbia, hot dry summers and little fungal disease issues here mind you. But she reblooms very well, the flowers are wonderful and she is very fragrant to boot. An excellent OGR for dryer climates in my opinion. YMMV?

@Rideau Rose Lad - Thanks for this information & you are right. Location!

I think I'll end up getting both this rose & Jacques Cartier next year

Mine doesn't suffer from diseases much, but it doesn't bloom either. LOL.