Here are two similar looks, but different sizes.

When I used exposed bulbs, I purchased frosted bulbs and that was enough to reduce the glare for me. (I collected random white vintage porcelean flush mounts, all mismatched but similar in size and shape. There was no glass globe. Just exposed bulb.)

I have hd good in person free design consults at the Visual Comfort flagship in Manhattan. Seeing the piece IRL completely change my mind and I ended up with a fixture I would have thought was much too large, but turns out it is perfect. Can you post the layout of your kitchen? I’m curious about the size in relation to the lights you want, how many you will use, and where they will be placed.

Simple - from Wayfair. It might be too small but not sure the dimensions you prefer.

@Kendrah Thank you so much! Here are 2 very rough initial plans. I haven't run this by anyone yet, was just playing around on the drawings. Any tips or advice from you is welcome!

Your point about scale is very good! Seeing in real life makes such a difference.

Since we already have "boob" lights, I am calling these cold-nipple lights!

This lighting plan below is awful and recessed lights would have been a cleaner look. If you ignore the middle row for a second, I am calling these nursing-dog lights!

The kitchen still looks dark even in the daytime with all lights on.

The glare would not work for many people, specially if you have light induced migraines.
There is a reason recessed light were invented and this kitchen below is the perfect example.

@chispa LOL! You coined a new term!

Agree with you about the above lighting plan - dark, shadowy, and full of glare in broad daylight. I'm hoping I can find a happy medium so appreciate the feedback. Trying to find my way with this!

This is a large kitchen. You are going to have a lot of nice decorative/feature lighting with your sconces and picture lights. I think the small "Heidi" lights are going to end up looking cluttered in the midst of all of that - too small and too many.

I like the number and spacing of the marine lights. Am I correct that the dotted lines are beams that in many places make a box and you've centered the lights in the box? If so, I vote yes on that layout, though I'm still curious about the depth of the beams and if the marine lights hug the ceiling too much compared to the beams.

I was looking for small lights and was surprised to end up with the Visual Comfort Thomas O'Brian Clark flush light. Online it looked too big and absolutely like a boob light. In person, it was fantastic, not boobular at all, and the size made perfect sense.

It comes in many finishes. I know I have seen it elsewhere in kitchens laid out in a grid but don't have those pics at my finger tips. Here are a few other pics of it:

BUT... None of these pics show them in combo with pendents. In fact, none of the kitchens I have used flushmounts in have had pendents. I think you need to be careful to not go on decorative lighting over kill. As much as I like surface mounts rather than recessed lights -- I like the old time feel of them, using recessed lighting will let your pendents and sconces be the starts of the show. It is all about balance.

I'd purchase some balloons and inflate them to various sizes that measure the size of the lights you are looking at. Then tape them up on your ceiling in a pattern more or less like what you are anticipating. It doesn't even matter if it is in your kitchen or elsewhere in your house that has a similar ceiling height. It will give you more of a realistic feel for the scale and size and look of having many flush mounts in a space.

Additional studies ... I adore Gil Schaffer. But I have to admit that he got it wrong on this one mixing pendants and flush mounts the way he did. It's too much visual info.

Whereas these flush mounts look great in the two pics below. And, if you look really closely, you'll see he has recessed lighting above the seating area in one and above the sink in the other. It is so clandestine and the room still has a great older feel to it.

It's like the Coco Channel saying of removing one piece of jewelry or one accessory from your outfit to make it feel perfect. I love the look you are going for, but you might have too many pieces of jewelry for one space.

@chispa - I agree the pic you reposted of the lights all in a row is terrible. And I think the light I posted should be called nipple icicle!

Another avoider of recessed lights here. I prefer the marine lights, but I think you have so much perimeter lighting and island lighting that you hardly need any of them - like just the line of three on the bottom wall by the "wall of cabinetry" and doorway. I would probably also change a few of the brass sconce shade lights to white glass, allowing for more spread light in the sink area, for example, instead of downlights.

You are spot on @Kendrah. Agree that all those fixtures can look like too much jewelry, or too many doodads all over the place. You are right -- the dotted lines are beams, which are quite deep -- 8.5" for our low 8' ceiling -- so it almost creates 'sections' where you wouldn't see all the lights at the same time.

I am going to follow your advice and mock it up with balloons and paper plates and live with it for a bit/look at it from all angles.

Gil Schafer (my hero!) has said he's not one of those people that are anti-recessed lights. He likes Lucifer lighting w/o a flange. If our project was in his hands, I'd be all in, since he is such a master (even if a few projects do have a lot of visual noise with surface mounts).

Our other challenges are: no upper cabinets so under-cabinet lighting isn't an option, and the room is very dark because it joins a semi-enclosed space. It only gets some late afternoon direct light. Lots to contend with and factor in!

This kitchen by Studio Dearborn just came through my IG feed and made me think of this post. I looked for it on the studio's website but did not finds pics of it, only saw them on IG or else I would have posted a better one.

The lighting on your window wall seems like overkill to me but I am no expert.

Thanks @s m! I recently saw that too and added to my inspo photos. I explored those fixtures but worry about the glare of the exposed bulb -- even if frosted.

You're probably right about the lighting above the window. Maybe 2 would suffice.

I just don't want to skip recessed and shortchange necessary light.

Thanks so much for sharing!

@Julie S - Thanks so much for the great advice, my fellow avoider of recessed lighting! I think I'm overcompensating to avoid making a mistake, but good to know I can probably dial it back a bit.

Another part of it is really harmonizing the finishes in your kitchen with the finishes and shapes of your lighting. That way your lighting can feel like sculptural pieces that belong in the space and even if the light output is over kill, the fixtures won't look it - as in this Heidi kitchen, where the fixtures and finishes all together are visual perfection.

Your light output will also be determined by the kind of pendents you use at the island and how much they spread light outward beyond the island vs how much the just cast light downwards to the island itself. The Heidi pic above, those pendents are putting out some serious light. Do you have a sense of what pendents you like?

Interesting to note that you have no uppers therefore no under cabinet lighting. Consider something like what Heidi does here with the three flushmounts in just the window area.

I am alover of excellent lighting in a kitchen IMO it is like an operating room . You need really good lighting to ,ake sure food looks right , check for bits that do not belong just lots of things you need to see I do notlike lighting that does not fill the space with light . I use pot lights for good overall light they can be on dimmers if you want . I like those then good lighting over the island on a seperate switch, smae for under cabinet lighting . That allows those types of light to be controlled alone. I often turn off the overla lighting after I finish cooking for a dinner party and just leave the island lit . MY choice for islands is usually where design comes into play since those are usually the pretty in the space . I have never liked scomces for lighting in most cases they provide limited range for sure. I like all LED lighting my prefernce is 4000K for that but 3500K is still very good and a softer feel. I have friends in Londol have a fab Devol kitchen but even the more traditional fixtures are still LED and pot lights for one layer of lighting.

All of those small flush/semi-flush lights you and Kendrah like so much, create visual clutter. They look like pimples jutting out from the ceiling. Today’s recessed lights are small, with rims that disappear into the ceiling. And, they can be maneuvered to point in whatever direction you want…without visual clutter.

The best kitchen lighting comes in three layers: perimeter recessed, to light the cabinets and counter; semi flush to illuminate the center of the room (and ceiling); and under cabinet, as task lighting.

Because these semi flush lights are large, just two of them light up the room. You will never get appropriate task lighting with those tiny pimple lights.

Task lighting over work zones is 450 lumens minimum at the counter with placement so there are no shadows on your prep. Any fixtures you like.

@Kendrah Would love your thoughts as we are on the same page (but you are more experienced!).

I love those Heidi examples. Ultimately, would you recommend I dismiss those specific clear-glass fixtures due to glare? (But don't Heidi's clients mind glare?!)

For pendants, I am looking at either of the below:

deVol Creamware Pendant

Aesthetically prefer this, in the smaller 9" size.

deVol MilkGlass Pendant

If I need a wider spread, this might be better. It's 11 3/8"w, a wider shape (less of a narrow cone like the creamware pendant), and milk glass will spread light more.

Another similar style I also like:

Hector Finch Lucia Pendant in size small (9 13/16"w shade)

I had also considered this direction, as I also like the idea of avoiding your standard pendant-over-island combo, but dismissed it thinking we could benefit from 3 lights over our 10'-ish island:

deVolMilk Glass Gaselier Light

I also explored/am considering this direction for pendants, adding rattan into the mix. Lean towards milk glass/creamware .

I really like and agre with your point about the mix of fixtures. If you see a way to shake it up, I'm open. I've seen great uses of pendants over counters, and flush mounts over islands for example.

I plan to do a mix that relate to each other.

Creamware and/or milk glass

Brass/metal

Potentially a sconce with a fabric shade for softness

Still love the glass-jar Heidi light from the UK but might need to let it go for kitchen!

TBD rattan pendant but unlikely will work in

Thank you @Patricia Colwell Consulting. Great callouts about the switches. You may cringe at this but I am personally a 2700K gal all the way, even for kitchens in the most task-oriented spaces.

Pot lights are so useful and I fully appreciate their many benefits, functionally and asesthetically. I'm going in a different direction for our 1790s farmhouse to keep that historical character -- it's a challenge for sure, as the straightforward answer is: pot lights.

buckscountyclassic, I have the DeVol creamware pendant light in my small 1914 Craftsman kitchen and LOVE it. It’s really beautiful and well made and casts a truly lovely light. It’s perfect!
I would avoid a rattan shade- seems like a dust collector. Personally, I’m not a fan of pot lights in older homes, but that’s me.

Thanks for the intel, especially as you actually have the exact light. Hadn't even thought of the dust factor -- you are soooo right. Dust + grease, no less. Happy to strike something from our list!

I'm not sure that I know much more than you do, I just have a lot of questions and observations, and it seems our aesthetics are simpactico. :)

1. I agree: No rattan and no to fabric shades - dust and grease.

2. @chinacatpeekin - What size deVol creamware light do you have? How high are your ceilings, and how far down is it hung? Can you turn your other lights off and take a pic with the creamweare light or lights on so we can see how far out the light spreads and if any of it bounces upwards?

3. For picture light, yes to a high powered LED bar (2700k). Different ones have different throw. Can you get yourself to a store with a good selection and try them out to see how far the light goes? Do you go to NYC often? I wonder if you can build a good rapport with a Visual Comfort sales person over the phone and then set an appointment to go see some items in person.

4. (But don't Heidi's clients mind glare?!) It is really possible that they do mind glare but just deal with it because the kitchen is so beautiful. She has great taste but it doesn't mean that her designs are functional. They may not be. Or maybe they do what my dear Dad used to do in our old house with terrible glare above the kitchen table - wore a baseball cap at dinner to keep the light out of his eyes!

I'm going to pontificate that this is the difference between Gil being a very good architect and using small, high end, focused pot lights to illuminate the architecture of the kitchen while reducing glare, whereas Heidi is consumed with texture, colors, and vibe. Just guessing here.

5. I would repost your dilemma on https://www.reddit.com/r/Lighting/ You may get some great lighting designers to respond.

6. I'm a total lover of 2700k too, especially in an older home. I got under cabinet lighting that can switch between temps and knew I would keep them on 2700k all of the time. WOW, I guess I can even surprise myself, because I've kept them on 3000 since the day they were installed. My eye sight sucks and the amber glow isn't working for me in chopping and recipe reading mode. Maybe your eyes are younger, or better functioning? I do dim them for mood lighting though.

Kendra, my ceiling is 9 feet. I got the larger size creamware pendant.

This is a very interesting thread.

I looked through all the designer / blogger kitchen pics posted so far and noticed that, with one partial exception, none of them show the ceiling lights actually illuminated and at night.

The partial exception is the widely derided, so-called nursing dog nipples image (the one captioned ”AFTER”). That one has the lights illuminated in the daytime and it looks bad.

Is this because the lovely lighting fixtures are more ornamental than functional, or the lights don’t look as lovely when turned on, or the kitchen looks much better in daylight than at night? None of these would be good.

Okay, enough with being snarky. Lighting is very very important. Since there aren’t enough pictures of kitchens actually being illuminated by these lights, I would do some experimentation.

I’m a big believer in experiment. Collecting inspo pics and making drawings can get you only so far.

Buy one of each light you are considering. Mount it to a ceiling box on a piece of plywood, wire with a long length of cable (as unobtrusive as possible, either lamp cord or thin white extension cord) with an inline dimmer and plug, screw that wood piece to your ceiling, and see how it looks. Lights turned on. At night. Better yet, make multiple of these testers, with surface mount lights and can lights and pendants, and put them all up. Simulate the entire lighting scheme.

(Yes, you will have to do minor DIY or pay a handyman to construct these testers, buy some lights and mount on the boxes, and put some screw holes in your ceiling. So what. In the context of a full kitchen reno, or even of tearing out and redoing a failed lighting scheme, this expense and hassle is nothing.)

I bet that all your questions, from “are nipple lights too glare-y” to “ will surface lights work with the beams”, and the key questions of will there be enough light? will be answered with a day’s work and a few hundred dollars.

I worked with a very good lighting designer and she did exactly what @John Liu mentioned. She came to my home with all of the lighting options hardwired with a plug. We turned the lights off and she moved the fixtures around the space so we could see how much light they gave off and exactly where we all thought they should be placed in relationship to architectural elements, like beams and corners noting how those elements impacted the throw of light.

HOWEVER, her theory is all about architectural lighting design and she distinguishes between architectural fixtures that light the space and artwork, and decorative fixtures that are meant to look pretty. As such she had her stash of fixtures she uses over and over again in client homes. I'm not sure it would be cost effective to do what @John Liu is proposing.

@chinacatpeekin - Super helpful! Lovely kitchen seating area. The light throw is giving a bit of an interrogation room vibe. (Meant with love and a smile :)

Most lighting designers will probably tell you to get recessed lights and use some decorative pendents and sconces for extra layers of lighting. I 100% get that is not what you want. I'm on board with you. But as you can see, you are going to have to do a lot of research and experimentation to figure out how these Heidi schemes actually work.

These great designers photograph during the daytime with beautiful natural light, likely with added light from photographers, and who knows if the light in their kitchen is actually functional.

Do you have any love at all for pendents with a more open throw, frosted glass like some that Heidi has? It would help solve a lot of general lighting problems.

Remember, that just like with plumping and bathrooms that evolved so people no longer have to go to an outhouse or kill themselves climbing in and out of unsafe tubs, lighting has evolved tremendously so nobody burns their houses down with kerosine, and people can see what they are doing with widely spaced lights. It is a tall order to emulate these improvements with old looking fixtures. It can totally be done, and I'm all for you doing it, but you might be hitting a few walls as far as needing to expand your selections based on how they throw off the light.

"I am problem-solving to have a more classic, traditional British look in our old house "

"I'm going in a different direction for our 1790s farmhouse to keep that historical character"

If this is the actual goal then rows of lighting and the amount of lights is not accurate. The amount of lights that you have is a very modern, American approach no matter the style of lights used. Using seamless recessed lights and reduced ceiling and wall fixtures would actually give the general look of historic or British kitchen more so than your current plan. Not that you should change your vision, it is an increasing popular approach with some designers and can look nice if done well.

Kendrah, I took the photos you requested last night (with all the other lights off, in the dark) and it was probably the first time ever I’ve ever had all the other lights off! I really love the feel and shape of the golden light cast by the creamware pendant over my dining table; it feels so cosy and lovely. To be clear, it’s one of many other light fixtures in my kitchen, including two other DeVol pendants, a flush- mount ceiling fixture, under cabinet lights, stove hood lights, two vintage French lamps and lots of natural light. I wouldn’t want the OP to be dissuaded from selecting a DeVol fixture as part of her kitchen lighting. Here are a few photos with all the lights on- the first time I’ve ever had them all on at once:)

chinacat, you have a gorgeous kitchen. Simply beautiful.

Thank you, John!

@chinacatpeekin Thank you for sharing these great photos. Appreciate it!

@Kendrah So many great points.

1) I actually do go to NYC a few times a month for work so I like your idea of a visit to Visual Comfort for their expertise. Will also post on the board you mentioned, which is new to me. Thank you!

2) I'll also look into pendants with more open throw, like those Heidi examples. That's a possibility. I was thinking of the pendants more as task lighting for the island, so hadn't really considered them as a broad source of light around the room.

3) I love that you worked with a lighting designer -- I have a fantasy of doing that. It's such a specific niche, and there are so many factors in each light and in the space, so it's hard to guess/cobble it together as a newbie. I haven't really pursued that path because I don't know of anyone, and specifically, someone aligned with my "vision" (har har).

4) 2700K versus 3000K...WOW! My eyes are definitely not good and we put our 20+ non-dimmable blaring bright recessed lights on every time we go into our current kitchen, so I'm curious if I'll be similar to you. I also saw you posted once about Vent-a-Hood lighting being too cold. I actually wrote to Vent-a-Hood about that very concern...but never heard back.

5) So true about the architectural practicality of Gil Schafer versus the beautiful layered interiors of Heidi Caillier!

@John Liu Agree with you about research only going so far. It's tricky because most of the fixtures aren't ones I can just buy, experiment with, and possibly return if they don't work. That would be the ideal scenario. I might be able to do it with a Visual Comfort light or two.

Re: photography. They always shoot these rooms in daylight with natural light. In fact, they famously also tend to Photoshop out recessed lights, especially when these kitchens appear in magazines -- as well as outlets (or style with a convenient wood breadboard or antique jug of flowers to hide it).

I deeply appreciate everyone's insights into this. You advice is invaluable. I'm determined to crack this case!

I have also found in-situ experiments with mockups to be hugely useful! While it might not be feasible to buy the exact lights you have your eye on to experiment with, I'd bet you can find similar-ish ones on Wayfair, just to test out generally what kind of light a ceramic cone shade throws vs a white glass one - that sort of thing.

@chinacatpeekin - Wow, what a kitchen. So fabulous. 1,000 times more interesting than most I see on here. Is the tile look on your floor actual tile or a mat?

@buckscountyclassic - You've got me down a rabbit hole wondering about how these Heidi / DeVol places are lit. Some mysteries solved - how do you see what the recessed lights look like if they are photoshopped out? I just learned about For the Love of Kitchens on HBO, a purely promotional show all about DeVol kitchens.

If you watch the very end of each episode where the kitchen is completed and they are going in for the photoshoot you can learn a whole lot.

A. Some of these 17th century homes with wood beams and not a recessed light in sight actually DO have recessed lights. They are just so freaking well hidden, painted the same color as the ceiling, small, directional, you really have to look hard to see them. Other homes the lights are really obvious and some quite ugly! Yes, ugly recessed coexisting with beautiful DeVol pendents and sconces and handmade furniture and plaster walls. Ugh. They just get cropped out because a lot of the DeVol kitchen shots are real close ups of the furniture.

B. There are a lot of photography lights at these shoots that brighten up the spaces. Magic. And what the hell happens after everyone leaves? Who knows? One kitchen was just so dark. No recessed lights, pendents and sconces. There was a chair towards the corner and they brought in a floor lamp. It just goes to show that the lighting was really focused in pools and didn't reach out to the corners of the rooms.

C. Others has a freaking smattering of pendents littered throughout the kitchen. Almost like recessed lights had just come down on a string.

D. Glare - nope, these folks are not even considering it. There is a ton of impracticality about these kitchen and I don't think they give a flying F if their clients have glare. However, a lot of their bulbs were frosted.

So just watch each episode at the very end and see what you learn.

I'm curious if you can find a good lighting designer who would be able to incorporate your aesthetic. My guess is they are rare. You may ask at Visual Comfort or another good lighting store in the city if they can recommend someone to work with.

Rita Konig's Victorian farmhouse.

How is this enough lighting?

Oh dear!

Looks like they forgot to photoshop one out of this kitchen ...

This off pink kitchen has two quite cleverly hidden, likely high powered sconces that probably shine light far up the wall and illuminate the ceiling. Can you find them?

I really like these white little upside down bowl lights because the blend into the ceiling and wall color so nicely. There is less to see of them and the other fixtures become the jewelry. Does this appeal?

This is a choice... not one I love, but a choice none the less.

Kendrah- thanks so much! The rug is a vinyl mat from Hudson and Vine. They come in many patterns, lie very flat on the floor (no tripping), and are easily wiped clean.
I really enjoyed “For the Love of Kitchens” - they are marketing geniuses…and obviously I love the look.

I think Julie S's post "While it might not be feasible to buy the exact lights you have your eye on to experiment with, I'd bet you can find similar-ish ones on Wayfair, just to test" is a very practical solution.

Don't buy the $$$$ dream lights for the test, instead buy nearly-disposable cheapo lights of the same general type and "geometry", and try bulbs of your choice, higher/lower wattage and warmer/colder temperature.

@Julie S @John Liu Great suggestion about experimenting with similar lights/actual bulbs! That is truly probably my best bet. Along with a consult from Visual Comfort as @Kendrah wisely suggested.

@Kendrah I keep seeing more sneaky examples where the can lights are photoshopped out, but then there's a video and, voila, there they are!

Your example of the little white upside-down bowl fixtures DOES appeal. I like how they blend somewhat. It does go back to my initial concern about glare from an exposed bulb. OR, are exposed bulbs ok if it's one like this?

Tala Globe E26 Matte White LED Bulb, Dim to Warm

The concern about glare is what led me in the direction of this Urban Archaeology/Visual Comfort Siena (or the the maritme example you shared).

If Visual Comfort, I can potentially use the Tala lightbulbs.

If Urban Archaeology, they come with their own built-in AC LED engine. I can go to their store in NYC and pick their brains a bit.

I was thinking a few of these fixtures would throw enough ambient light throughout.

Then pendants over island could be task lights for that work area (so maybe ok if light insn't broadly spread).

And wall lights, over windows and on walls, could be task lights for the sink/stove/perimeter counters.

Then a single picture light/spot light just for funsies (-:

I love that you referenced Rita Konig. I subscribed to Create Academy for her 2 courses, and actually got the plans for her recent Plain English kitchen from it. I also took their lighting design course but it wasn't that helpful for my specific situation right now.

I'd order one of the bulbs you posted, screw it into a clamp lamp like - something like this, get some extension cords and start playing around with it to test out glare. Clamp it to your ceiling, beams, whatever. Do you have other overhead fixtures in your house you can take the shade/glass off of and screw it into?

Make a simple call to Visual Comfort to ask about how far the throw of the flush mount is that you like, how many you would need to light your space, and include the fact that there are 8" beams.

I have sworn off fixtures with built-in LEDs. I purchased a small node fixture from Visual Comfort. We had a leak in the ceiling and it fried the entire fixture. It had to be thrown out. Were it a regular fixture with a changeable bulb it would not have been a problem.

I do not have 1 recessed light in my house and I am thankful for it. I love the direction you are going and can't wait to see this when it is done. I was going to suggest what Kendrah did above. You could even grab a lamp and put it on top of something and see what you think about a clear bulb vs frosted.

Good luck!

@Debbi Washburn It's so nice to hear this first-hand from someone who doesn't have recessed lights. There's certainly a dogma around it!

Thank you @Kendrah. This is so smart. It's time to experiment IRL!

You might not be surprised to know that I've opened a can of worms on multiple other aspects of our kitchen renovation: no toe-kicks with cabinet bases to floor (Plain English style), hand-painted finish on top of spray + waterborne poly instead of CV. It seems for every default approach, I am looking to try something different (that seems basic and not that outrageous, but yet it's not the standard).

Really grateful for the input!

So I think this is a very interesting post. My house is the opposite-new, fairly modern, minimal, beautiful in a totally different way, with lots of natural light. I have never lived in a house with recessed lights until now. We have a lot of recessed lights, but we have many other options as well. We use the other options more than recessed. There are times when the recessed are needed/useful, and I am glad to have them. Almost all of our installed lights are on dimmers. I highly recommend doing that no matter what type of fixture(s) you use.

I am not a fan of the "cold nipple light"-ha! ha! I think that some of the other options look better. I think that you will be working on your lighting plan for a while to get it right. It may not be common, which makes it more challenging and interesting. Also if it goes with the style of your older home, that will feel "right" in the design.

There is an lighting store called Olde Brick Lighting> It's a small business, and their store is in Pennsylvania, and you can shop online. They have beautiful quality fixtures, reasonable prices, and good service. They make most of the lights from antique molds. So the designs that they have might be of interest to you in your project. Also a lot of their designs will give you choices between clear or milk glass.

This is a bit off topic, but maybe helpful if you are going to have under cabinet, or under shelf lighting. Our under cabinet lights can be switched from warm, to neutral, to cool, and have a high and low light switch, and it also works on a dimmer. I don't have any idea what brand, because our lighting designer ordered them. When you talk with someone at the lighting store, you may want to ask about that, if it's relevant for you. I would imagine this is probably pretty common these days, but I actually just discovered I could change the temperature.

Good luck with the planning, hunting, and gathering. :)

I would also suggest in areas, like the living room and bedroom, having an outlet on a switch. I love walking into the living room , flipping a switch and turning on floor lamps. I also don't have huge rooms. I am in a small home so I think it is much easier to light with decorative fixtures.

I also like the unconventional and don't always follow the "norm". A designer once said "do what makes your heart happy" - that has always stuck with me.

^ love that Debbi - i am also a big user of timers for my lamps, esp in the winter

@buckscountyclassic - Who did you end up using as your cabinet maker?

Out of both love of old things and insane allergies to vocs and other chemicals, I too never take the straight and easy path to constructions and purchasing.

I hope we get to see plenty of pictures when your kitchen is complete!

@Kendrah Superior Woodcraft! Michelle is incredible - you were right.

What finish/"paint" product have you used for your kitchen cabinetry projects? We're still exploring doing a hand-painted final coat, but it sounds like it may be BM Advance even though it takes about a day between coats (their standard go-to is a SW catalyzed conversion varnish). I also want to ensure BM Advance is durable enough. They will help connect me with their finisher/painter to discuss and do samples.

Based on my research, while CCV is a default, it seems like a water based 2K urethane based finish like Milesi, Renner, or Envirolak is the gold standard for low VOC and durability. I contacted Milesi and they said they could achieve the look with their products.

I get a bit nervous experimenting with myself as the guinea pig, for such an expensive investment. But, even if I scrap the hand-painting, I'm still interested in an alternative to CCV.

I suspect you may have some wise advice on this topic!

Cheers to old things and no chemicals!

The hand painting thing is interesting. I didn't end up painting my cabinets, but the plan was to brush paint and be "strategically imperfect", so the finished product could pass for much older furnishings.

@John Liu Exactly. It would be very subtle hand brushstrokes so more artisanal versus a perfect 'factory finish'. In addition, if it ever needed to be repainted it could. That's the idea of Plain English kitchens - they are intended to last in perpetuity and can be touched up if needed.

We shall see if this is viable and if it's within budget.

Plain English and Devol are similar to Crown Point and Kennebec cabinetry that were pretty popular 15 years ago. There were several posts similar to yours on the old Gardenweb, quite a few really unique and beautiful kitchens. Definitely at least one against recessed lighting that turned out really well but I can not remember who it was and the search has not helped.

Glad you are also having a good experience with Michelle. Please tell her I said hello, though my name is not actually Kendrah! (She did our kitchen in Fairmount and in NYC. She'll know who you're talking about.)

I hate a CCV look. Seems so plastic to me. I cannot remember what they did for our Fairmount kitchen. For our NYC kitchen, we experimented with them using Farrow and Ball. I do not recommend it. It has not held up well. I can hardly blame Michelle. It was nice enough of her agree to experiment.

Through this I learned paint is not just color, it can be a truly hardened protective coating, which is useful. Is there a way to get hardened curing without a plastic like look? I dunno. Maybe Ben Moore Advanced looks ok?

Part of the problem too is that we had our cabinet hung high. More space than usual between counter and uppers. The bottom shelf of the uppers is really high. We wanted it that way because our kitchen is small and this really helped it feel more open. And, we are tall enough to reach up high. BUT, it is easier to knock the corner of the cabinet where the bottom shelf opening is and that is where a lot of our dings are.

Brush painting is certainly within budget.

Remember what we are trying to duplicate or be harmonious with. Cabinets site-built, by skilled but hardly upscale craftspersons, brushpainted with the oil-based paints of the day, then dinged and dirtied for decades, brushpainted again, kicked and whacked and indifferently abused for decades more, when the once fine house was a den of hippies, finally valued and brushpainted again, a century of surviving captured in the runs and dents, chips and brush marks.

If I ever do summon the energy to paint my cabinets, I’ll do it DIY, with reasonable but not fastidious, competent but not professional, care and all the runs and buildup will simply add to the character.

Old houses are 100 in character, 10 in perfection. I don’t strive for more than 50 perfection in my projects in this 1911 house.

@Kendrah I'll definitely say hi -- I'm sure she'll get a kick out of us connecting! You confirmed one of my fears about regular paint, and completely articulated the objective: a hardened curing without a plastic-like look.

@John Liu I'm going to remember this formula, it sums it up so well. 100 in character, 10 in perfection. Meant to last and be lived in. I love it.