I think I remember your posts from last year - lots of enthusiasm - interesting concepts - it's fun to see how different people think about how their plants function. Not too much here that's grounded in plant science or physiology, but interesting nonetheless.

Good luck this year.

Al

Interesting concepts? Last years pictures are still posted here. As for science, proof anyone can get with a razor blade and microscope. IÂve read your stuff and found you to be someone with a brain compared to many with a much better understanding. In fact your discussion helped me last year with a problem I was having with my tomatoÂs. Seems my son was using straight tap water to speed up his watering. Chlorine and yellowing leaves. Point is why be condescending? IÂve got, posted and shown my proof of what I enjoy doing. IÂm just working to say it in the right way for others to understand. Like in everything it starts in Chaos and ends with Order. This is just the beginning Chaos of understanding. So I ask what part didnÂt make sense? What parts didnÂt follow thru to the other parts. IÂm going to have to explain this to people and it doesnÂt help to have them standing there scratching their heads.

Sorry, but what you say seems rambling and a bit incoherent.

Perhaps it is because you use odd terms in place of accepted ones? Or that you capitalize words mid sentence like Chaos and Order? Maybe it is that you strung several thoughts together without using paragraphs to help me understand where one idea ended and the other began? It could also be your mentioning the "Dark Gardening Method" when I haven't a clue what that is.

Anyway, have fun.

Please provide an overview of dark gardening for those of us standing here scratching our heads.

I'm familier with hydroponic gardening, but not sure why taking the sunlight out of the process would be a plus to you or to the plants. It's a fairly consistent energy source and it's free. Hard to beat that. Or have I missed the point entirely? I wasn't on this forum last year so don't have the benefit of history on this topic.

I believe I would miss the color it imparts as well. Plants grown in the dark would be green-less, wouldn't they?

Ok IÂll except that. But thatÂs why I posted it to learn to do it better. I visualize, conceptulize then create but others get stuck on how I get from point a to point c because it doesnÂt add up to b. I know I ramble but thatÂs just because IÂm an Artist. It coverÂs everything I do. But and forgive me for being a little forward here but I say I can raise 32 stalks of corn in the same space it takes a farmer to grow one in ground. With one fifth the water, none of the energy, machine costÂs. Can be done organically or chemical. ItÂs portable and light weight not to mention recyclable. The processes to produce every part is all ready in place and in common use. You can literally do the whole thing without spending a dime. But that doesnÂt do anyone any good if I canÂt get the line of points across.

The Principles
Behind The Dark Garden Method
The toxicity levels of the three main root types,
air, water and soil
are directly proportion to their reproductive capacity
and inversely proportional to their degree of differenation

When a seed lies in the ground it can germinate without light as long as certain conditions are met. A seed has a certain "battery life" when itÂs first produced. Their just little batteries waiting for the short circuit that gets them started. But they can only grow for the life of that battery. Yes the plant will be white but thatÂs easily fixed. Think of the energy you save if you donÂt have to have light till the seeds germinate. IÂm really into tropical and some of those bad boys donÂt germinate for a year. They germinate (rest) bulbs that way already. You only need bring out the seeds that sprout You can have a huge collection of seeds in trays sitting on top of each other that you simply check everyday. See here is where the rambling and jumping paragraphs comes in. I start with light closets built with 1" PVC pipe and construction grade 8 mil plastic. Black. It measures 2'x4'x6'. There are 3 shelves each 2'x4'x2'. The bottom shelf isnÂt lighted. ItÂs just a warm chamber. The bottom chamber holds 24 - 72 chamber seed trays. I check each day to see whatÂs sprouted and move them to the upper lighted shelves. Now back to the germination. The seed now has to "decide" what kind of root it can grow. ThatÂs where the Dark Garden Method steps in. I "encourage" the plants to grow roots for the environment I created for them. ThatÂs the first step in the Dark Garden Method. Encouragement. It gets if from the mix. The first two things in the Dark Garden Method, the light closets and the mix. The next thing is the bottle. Just a plain 2 liter soda bottle redesigned to made a pressured air chamber using sunlight and evaporation. Lastly itÂs also the idea of whatÂs going on in the chamber that allows rapid growth with very little root spread. I think thereÂs a picture of a root ball on last years posts. ItÂs a picture of a corn stalk root....

OK.

I understand that seeds do not require light to germinate. I have noted that some seed packets I have indicate light is necessary for germination, but haven't found that to be true. Then again I never attempted to keep them in total darkness either.

I can also relate to encouraging a plant to develop the type of roots most suitable for the way it will be grown. For houseplants I enjoy hydroculture so with a cutting I root in water to form water roots suitable for the growing method. Same would be true for any form of hydroponics.

The part I could use some further explanation on is the last part you mention, particularly the 'rapid growth with very little root spread'.

I also do not yet understand what is meant by this:

"The toxicity levels of the three main root types,
air, water and soil
are directly proportion to their reproductive capacity
and inversely proportional to their degree of differenation"

For those of you who were not here last year, or are having a MEMORY relapse (lol), attached is a link to a bit of Georgeiii history. It was quite riveting while it lasted, I tell ya!

The threads that appear to be very long have been greatly reduced, because most of the gar-bage' has long been deleted.

If you think you're confused now......

Here is a link that might be useful: Click!

I was having fun
thinking of the little history you present
but your so bent
to such an extend
I thought IÂd give a little history too
Then IÂll get back to you.
Let me give you a mumble
how humble I can be
My name is first because
I should really introduce myself
when talking to someone I donÂt know
My Prenatal given name is George Davis
ItÂs simple I know
But it goes to show
ThatÂs always the way to go
Now My Earth given name is Christian Warlock
I got it from 3 Nuns I taught how to steal
George just didnÂt seem bad enough for me just then
Now where were we, cause like a rootlet
IÂm starting to spread
Oh, yeah the bad boy part
Because the bad boy part got me
to be a photographer at the Whitehouse
from 71 to 72
had dinner with the President
11 times
knew rummie and dicky too
GOT LESSONS FROM DEAN RUSK
DEAN RUSK OF ALL MEN
he had a busy elbow at parties
but when that mouth opened
there were words for all time
an I just 21
ThatÂs rootletÂs section two
Now here begins a journey in the sun
4 years of my life from the first I held my breath
I made love to princesses and school teachers
on top of Diamond Head
ThereÂs a stairway up the back
itÂs thirty years later
and I bet you didnÂt know that.
Since this is sort of a resume
IÂll try to speed thing upThereÂs a list of stories
I can tell
but only in names
but what the hell
IÂm an Artist, Photographer, Capricorn, Humanist
and Meta-morph
ItÂs a "being" I learned from an unkind hand
IÂm using it right now
canÂt you feel those rootletÂs in the words
I taught Green Berets and Special forces
how to fight close quarters,
hand to hand, man to
man
so understand thereÂs no ego in this for me
from then to now is a long road indeed
so I skip ahead
to how you are fed
and how youÂve been touched
my me
Haaaahhaaaaa you hear that a lot
coming out of my throat
Haaha thatÂs right from here in my darken room
I had a finger on you
I made candy by the ton, somedays20 to 35 tonÂs
a night.
Maybe you heard their names
5th Avenue bar, The York Peppermint Patty, Mellow Mint, Queen Ann
Hell I can get deeper than that
How bout jelly beans, cough drops, caramels, circus peanuts too
Man I had a hell of a list
thatÂs just one facet of my life
Now I come here and my Diamond is shining on you.
I have ideaÂs
The Dark Garden Method is here
IÂm not shy about putting them out

First let me explain why I donÂt use hydroponics. And
!!!PLEASE, PLEASE
DONÂT MISUNDERSTAND.
HYDROPONICS WORKS!!!
ALL THESE METHODS WORK NO ARGUMENT FROM ME!!!
It all works, itÂs just that I noticed something. Each pod with itÂs own aeration grew less roots than those who flood and drained with a main aeration chamber. They also branched rather than just elongate. But thatÂs itÂs problem, too much root.
Too much waste run off. Most people just throw that stuff down the john rather than have a purpose for it. ItÂs wasteful. Most common small hydroponics gardens are what? 20 gallons. Which is taken care of how? Now here is a humble mumble for a comparison. Those 20 gallons turn into about 100 liters. So if I use 2 liters per day on 8 plants( itÂs only 1 in the beginning) I have 50 days and no run off or toilet flushes. Root growth and root spread. I should have said rootlet spread. Roots are tuff little suckers that plow and pry themselves into the earth. But rootletÂs are stringy, hair thin, their there to absorb what a plant needs from the Earth. Rootlets are also how plants breathe. If a root passes thru a good pocket of earth it sends out rootletÂs and keeps digging. The more rootletÂs the slower the root growth. The root can stop "seeking" because all of the roots needs are being met thru the rootletÂs..

Now for another one of those humble mumbles
"The toxicity levels of the three main root types,
air, water and soil
are directly proportion to their reproductive capacity
and inversely proportional to their degree of differenation"

The toxicity levels: mainly here weÂre talking about salt. The measure of water pressure from one side of the cell wall to the other. It varies from air, to water to soil. The same is said for the different rates of growth. Because each medium allows different rates of growth thru them. But you can effect the rate of rootlet growth by using outside influences. ThatÂs the inverse part of the equation Using the increased pressure formed in the bottle we over come NatureÂs barrier wall so the plant will take in nutrients and water at a lower ph. Think of it like cotton candy being spread thru out your medium by pressurize evaporation

Are you saying your growing method overcomes the problem of reverse osmosis caused by excessive salinity of the growing medium due to increased pressure in the bottle?

YES!!! Interesting isn't it. Makes you want to read that mumble again doesn't it. That's the science of Chaos and Order. Somewhere along the line of Chaos Order is formed before it reverses back into Chaos. Over and over from Chaos to Order. That's how all things are formed,how the chance of life was formed. That took billions of years. It's like the horse and buggy facing the automobile. The horse is fine. It will get you where you want to go. But there's problems with horses even tho their cute and fuzzie. But somebody went hmmmmmmmm. We got the auto. But there's problems with the auto too. The problem of what you put in is what you get out. That applys to plants as well. That's another conversation about cooking in dirt.

That's why the container is so much smaller. The amount of toxicity is overcome by the sooooo much bigger plant using it.