As Gardengal explained on your trees forum thread, landscaping isn't really about plant selection; there are a few people here who will talk specific plants in some cases but mostly you'll get more engagement on layout, views, scale, hardscape, and so on.

But it's always worth a shot - if you invest the time in taking and posting photos, many of us will invest a little time in helping out.

Here is a link that might be useful: First question

Jeff, for the Church - see what organizations within the church will help back you in your efforts to relandscape it. I understand your willingness to do it yourself, but you have to consider the landscape as part of the church itself. 20, 30, 50 years down the road, will you still be there to maintain and manage it?

The church I attend back in Ottawa have an annual spring clean-up, which tackles both the inside and outside of the Church. See if there are any such "traditions" already in place, and tailor your design so that current maintenance activities can easily accomodate it.

-Audric

At my age and experience in life, I know what plants I want to select; I just want their arrangement as to shape and size to be the best. After I`m lond dead and gone there will be many people who can do the maintenance. The local methodist church is mostly landscaped by blue hollies, green velvet boxwood trimmed in pyramids or globes. 2 knock out roses. That is one of the "best" in my area. I want more than that. I don`t like a cone near each corner or door-way with something every square inch in between.

Then what do you want? Poufy shapes at the corners? Beds extending in to the middle of the lawn? Quiet corners to sit? Places for kids to play? The list is really endless. Once you get those basics down, certain things start falling into place.

Then you are ready to start talking about plants. Don't underestimate the power of good design in making common, everyday plants look good.

I want the landscape to reflect what the church is ;something special. Something of seasonal interest, something that isn`t a maintenace nightmare. I have read that the pointy thing at each corner is not landscaping; merely planting plants with no imagination or creativity. I want to help the church to fit into its surroundings, but with a little more class than what I normally see. Like you say it is not so much the plants selected but the arrangement of them. What I seek is the concept expressed by karinl and how to achieve the design concepts.

We seem to be talking in circles......you keep referring to plants and others keep bringing in the design element. Virtually any plant can look good if care is given to its placement within the comtext of the final composition.

Look to the basics: scale and proportion, form and shape, texture and color, balance and repetition. Within this framework, move around the mental images of the plants you prefer (or use whatever imaging software at your disposal) to generate an aesthetically pleasing composition, keeping in mind the recommended growing conditions the plants in question require. And there you have it! If this is beyond your experience base, then look for some assistance with one of the DIY landscaping texts I referred to in the other thread. Any of them will explain in detail how to combine these design elements to create a well-considered composition.

btw, there is no hard and fast rule that pointy or cone-shaped plants can or can't be used to define entrances or corners of structures - it all boils down to context; with the structure, with the layout and with the other plants.

Jeff: you seem to have yourself in a knot here. One tree that expressed your belief would do it wouldn't it? Watch one tree grow, flower, fruit, drop its leaves and come back again. Are you looking for more than that?

So post your pictures already. You'll be given some advice that you can take or leave. Why argue in advance of getting the advice whether it is what you want or not?

My intention wasn`t to argue with anyone, but to share information. Personally, I like some formality, mixed with some plants that look natural.

I think inkognito's suggestion a few posts up is inspired. Have you been considering it, midwestjeff? Beautifully simple and fecund. And completely consonant, I think, with what you have been saying you want.

Let's see your pictures so we can start to think about how it (or any other idea) might be carried through in your situation.

Oh dear. I've just received an off-list note from Midwest Jeff. It wasn't really very complimentary. Nonetheless, I drafted up an answer, but I don't feel like sending it offlist as I don't engage in accusing backchat, but want Jeff to know that his note has been received and his points duly considered.

So I'm going to post my answer here. Of course I can't post Jeff's note as it was not intended for public consumption.

Dear Jeff,

Garden Web reaches a global audience and so the forums do include people who don't speak English as a first language. That doesn't make them stupid.

Although many people have criticized the LD forum for being rude, I have never seen the rudeness emerge wihtout an initial display of rudeness or inconsideration from a person posting a query or responding to advice. But to tell you the truth, I've been in a good number of forums and I've never found one where a person who tries to tell a forum what kind of advice to give has gotten what they want, and they often get told off in far stronger terms than anything that's been said to you here. In fact, what WAS said that got you all upset?

Do the people here know a lot about landscape design? Well, you'll never find out if you don't give us a shot at your projects, will you? But good luck with the tactful nursery landscape architect that you've met. At least this will likely be a person who is more interested in plants than in landscaping. I'm sure that if you ever change your mind about posting pictures here the forum will be as willing as we are today to offer some input.

Finally, as to whether Ink is inspired or not, why don't you run his suggestion by the pastor of your church, and see what s/he thinks.

KarinL

As I seem to have been discussed in a private e-mail and with only the response shown here I can only fill in the gaps for myself so let me answer what I think is the question. Am I inspired? Sometimes. Is my suggestion about planting one tree at the church inspired? Yes, and furthermore chartreuse agrees with me. Why is it inspired? Because it is a suggestion to get in touch with what the garden is meant to represent or to reflect what is special about the church in its simplest form. Now for some speculation, when someone says "I like some formality, mixed with some plants that look natural" or "I want to help the church to fit into its surroundings, but with a little more class than what I normally see," and this is the designer speaking it suggests to me that they are being guided more by ego than the church. I don't think I am being rude here, or at least not as rude as what I am reading between the lines. BTW karin I think you should post that e-mail.

First of all when I go to forum, I go there for one reason. To learn plain and simple. Karin1 I`m impressed with your credentials and accomplishments. I don`t know any of you; I simply know what I read. Being told to plant all Green Giants Arborvitae by someone I don`t consider helpful. I am a self admitted plant addict. I tend to push the limits in my own landscape and if it survives 5-10 years I`ll put it a friends house (with them knowing the risk) I want to keep 2 existing Jap Maples Crimson Queen, take one Cedrus libani `Stenocoma` out of my own yard. I want to combine some grasses, some knockout roses and using the design principles mentioned. I`ve got a limited education in horticulture. I graduated from a 2 year vocational program, and then finished a BS at a 4 year college in that course of study. Back eons ago there were only 2 professors of horticulture at that college. One had a concentrated knowledge of roses, and he was design teacher. I don`t attempt to make a living at landscaping: I`m a grain farmer. No offense intended, but unless I feel qualified to give advice on any subject I don`t give any. Education isn`t the only basis to be intelligent or street smart : some us learn by hard knocks.

Thank you for that jeff, I now have a better understanding. I wish you luck with your project.

Go ahead and post the photos of the church so that you get more specific feedback! Take them from different angles, including looking out from the church towards the street, tell us what the exposure is, the soil conditions, etc, and I am willing you will get lots more specific comments.

You are absolutely right that Karin knows what she is talking about, and presents her comments in a very constructive, straight forward manner. No doubt she is more diplomatic than Tony can be because she deals with the public on a daily basis, and isn't snow bound for weeks at a time like Tony/Ink must be this time of year.

It doesn't hurt to give people the benefit of the doubt, and respond to the useful in replies, rather than getting all hot and bothered. It is unfortunate that we can't all just easily sketch out solutions and easily post them in response to your query, but not all of us are set up to do overlay sketches from a posted photo, and we get bogged down in semantics, as seems to have happened here.

OK, Jeff... from one Midwestern clod-kicker to another:

Part of the problem here (And it is nobody's fault.) is that there are essentially two different languages being spoken. I have no doubt that you know the look you are striving for but are uncertain as to the best way to achieve it. Because of the underlying problem of words having several meanings, dependent upon the listener's frame of reference, most on this forum get confused when you say things like; "I like some formality, mixed with some plants that look natural" or "I want to help the church to fit into its surroundings, but with a little more class than what I normally see." This confusion, on our part, is why there have been requests for photos.

Personally, I think for this particular design situation, your predilection as "a self admitted plant addict" is actually hampering your ability to design. It is typically difficult for plant addicts to set their horticultural fascination aside and actually concentrate on design. I *think* you are probably confident that you can rely upon really great specimens to lend class to this design. This is largely untrue. It is the setting (design) into which great plants are displayed which sets the tone -- not the other way around. Also, bear in mind that this is a public setting. 98% of the folks looking at your wonderful Cedrus libani `Stenocoma` (or whatever) will say, "Oh, yeah... a pine tree." It is the design, not the plants, that will be noticed by the general public.

As a side note: You mentioned ornamental grasses. Experience has shown that these should not be planted in close proximity to public buildings. For example: McDonalds restaurants used these quite extensively when grasses first became all the rage. However, they soon discovered that the wonderful, dried "winter interest" all too often became a tender box for errant cigarette butts or even vandals. I'm sure you are familiar with how quickly and hot grasses can burn. If you use them, stage them well away from the building.

IronBelly

Dear Jeff,

First of all, I am a professional, but not in the field from which you are seeking advice. I am a minister, specifically serving churches that require an interim pastor and / or a pastor skilled in congregational transformation. I've worked with churches in suburbs, cities, and those in small town and rural settings. I've served on a national committee awarding grants for new church development and congregational transformation.

Here are some questions that come to mind off the top of my headÂ
1. Who do you need to ask? The pastor? The governing board? A committee? The congregation?
2. Is the usual entrance to the church clear, welcoming and easily found by newcomers?
3. Is there an accessible entrance that meets ADA specifications? New church construction has to comply, old not, but think message here.
4. What size church property is this? Rural? Small town--often platted for the township as double lots? Suburban from around the 1950s--usual size 2 to 5 acres? Newer site--often 10 to 40 acres?
5. Site considerations? Type of sewage system? Existing trees, flower beds, pathways, stairways, storage sheds, access to building exterior, signage, burn barrel? Believe me about that last one!

There isn't an easy way to arrange a set of plants without knowing the answers to these questions and others. That's also why it would help greatly if you would post pictures.

I am thinking about sending more information on the "messages" congregations send, often without thinking about it, through their use of space, both inside and outside of the church building.

Wellspring

Dear Jeff,

I thought it might stir your imagination if I shared some examples of the "messages" churches send through their use of space. the key element in most of these examples is not plant material and may have nothing to do with your church situation. Your project sounds like it will be something different, more along the lines of a way for you to share a gift and personal interest in plants. That may be fine, if it fits with the way your church makes decisions and as long as it is done well, which is probably why you are asking for input. ButÂyour project will send a message. The question is: What will that message be?

What message is sent whenÂ

> Members of a church use an entrance that "everyone" knows about, except newcomers who feel lost and confused after trying the locked front door.
> Members tolerate a serious odor issue--I once overheard the child of a visiting family ask, "Mom, why does it stink in here?"
> Additions to a church create a rectangular structure with an exterior courtyard in its center. It is tended for years by a primary donor, but after her death the tiny garden is mowed and hacked back and left forlorn.
> Three times in 10 years a congregation votes down a proposal to install an elevator with exterior access, although fewer and fewer elderly members can safely navigate the 15 or so steps to enter the sanctuary or the 11 steps to go to a fellowship dinner in the basement.

Now try theseÂ

> A congregation carefully thinks through how to indicate the usual entrance: signs, sidewalks, greeters.
> A congregation debates intensely the merits of putting in additional parking, creating a playground, or providing a memorial garden to honor the memory of members who have died. They decide on a capital fund drive to purchase a neighboring property so they can increase parking. They will build the play area on the existing property to meet a community need.
> A congregation in rural Illinois discovers a desire to deepen its spiritual life and builds a prayer labyrinth in the neighboring cornfield (acreage belonging to the church). They invite the region to make use of this experience. The income from harvesting the corn goes toward local mission efforts.

So, I guess I'm wondering what message your congregation feels called to send to its community?

Wellspring

Just emerging from a long swoon to thank you, Bahia, for the compliment... and to empathize, truly, with Ink about the weather.

Good luck Jeff!

Since Jeff has not enabled email on his GW account, I have to go this route again to communicate directly with him... but am happy in any case to say that I've received a really nice note from Jeff, an apology with a bit of musing about his plant interests and feeling weather-bound in winter (something in common with Ink :-)).

Dear Jeff,

Thanks very much for your note, and if anyone understands the winter blahs it is fellow gardeners and plant nuts... which many of us are in the LD forum although when here, we try to focus on the bigger picture and on attributes of plants other than their botanical ones. I've learned a lot here; sometimes by saying my piece and seeing it shot down.

I don't know about the others but because it's as slow on the forum in winter as it is in the garden, I'm always glad to have some food for thought, hence my interest in seeing your pictures. If you decide to go ahead and post, you'll need to upload your pictures to a photohosting website such as www.photobucket.com and then copy the TAG line from the photo there into the text of your message here on GW. When you hit Preview Message, the photo(s) should appear. And if I were you, I'd just do it in this thread, not start a new one, since you've already given some contextual information here that will be helpful to anyone wanting to pitch in. Wellspring's questions will also help to guide advice for the church in particular.

Till then,

KarinL

Another note to Jeff in response to an off-list email:

Dear Jeff,

First, if you want to communicate with people off-list it would be nice if you would enable email to be sent to you via GardenWeb. I can't respond via my personal email address for personal reasons.

Second, I'm sorry I can't post your pictures for you. To participate on GW you do need to figure out how to post pictures:

I assume you are starting with digital photos that are on your computer. Now, go to a site called Photobucket (www.photobucket.com, I think) and open a free account there so you get an album. Upload your photos into your Photobucket album. Once your photos are uploaded into Photobucket, each photo will have a tag line. Copy the entire tag line and paste it into the body of your message to post on GW. When you hit "preview message" your photos should appear, and you can add any commentary you want.

Also, I do want to correct your apparent misapprehension - I am a layperson in the area of landscape design; not a professional.

Good luck,

Karin