I don't know, but suspect they are an organic matter eater of some sort and of no consequence to your plants.

I spose a broader question would be do you really want things eating your potting mix? I know I sure wouldn't. I value the aeration and great drainage of a good potting mix and critters eating it up isn't going to do a lot to maintain that ;)

Yes, don't confuse the benefits of such activities between a potting mix and in-ground plantings.

If you don't use a different soiless mix, for sure you'll know what these things are if you start to see flies of some sort, or if your plants decline.
I would definately do as jag expressed..."value the aeration and great drainage of a good potting mix"..:-)

Might be pot worms, little white annelids GW thread on little white worms

I'm betting it's some kind of a fly maggot that got into my pots due to the organic matter, but maybe they are pot worms. They don't like the light and are not on the surface. However, if I remove a slight amount of the soil from the surface they are a good number of them. I do vermicomposting, so worms in general do not bother me. I do find these critters gross though.

Is it safe to asume that they will eventually disappear, and not cause harm to my roses? So far they still look healthy. If they are eating the dead organic matter, and not my live plants, they should theoretically leave behind beneficial castings as well as other beneficial micro organisms. These roses are in pots so that I can start a new garden when I sell my existing home and am able to purchase some land in the country. Therefore, growing roses in containers is new to me.

Sandy

All the organic matter in your planting, except for the plant, is dead, and fair game for any form of fauna that eats dead matter, which means they are dining on large soil pieces and turning them into small ones. Usually, these types of creatures thrive in moist conditions, and since they are making the soil MORE water-retentive as they break it down, it's unlikely they will eventually disappear w/o some sort of change in cultural conditions.

Using soil amendments as a N source (manure, blood meal, alfalfa, etc) often invites increased populations of these creatures, along with increased likelihood of flora like algae and various worts.

Personally, I view any type of worms or larvae in container soils as an undesirable condition because of the negative effect they have on the relationship between water retention and aeration.

Al

Al, do you feel as time goes on that the situation will correct itself? So far, the roses look fine. I also just spent a great deal of money on the potting soil, etc. that are in these pots so I don't really want to turn around after just a few days worth and change it all out. I'm not talking about just a few pots. I've repotted over 60 so far. Besides, I don't especially want to deal with the maggotty things.

If the general opinion is that the roses will be fine, I can live with things running their course. I just won't make the same mistake again.

Sandy

I don't think it will correct itself w/o some action on your part, and I do think that you'll need to take extra measures to ensure that your soil holds up for this season. I'll speak frankly when I say that the soil was a rather water-retentive one before you added the manure & other components that break down quickly, and more so after. I think your best strategy is to be sure you water very carefully. Watch your young (immature) plantings for signs of wilt & water when you first see it, instead of with the frequency your intuition tells you to. Watering like that will soon re-educate your intuition.

Tips: Add a wick to the container to help you remove excess water. Water either at the first signs of wilt, or when the soil feels dry at the drain hole; later, when the plantings are mature, water when the soil is dry at the drain hole. If you have no aversion to soluble fertilizers like Foliage-Pro or MG, switch to a soluble fertilizer. It will help slow the progression of soil collapse and may help eliminate or partially eliminate the 'worm' issue.

Al

Al, thanks so much for your concern and your help, I appreciate it very much. I went out and checked on some of the pots after a heavy rain this afternoon, and the number of "maggots" is reduced, and the remaining appear sluggish. We also had a great number of birds in our yard this morning and I am guessing they had themselves a feast!

One thing I will say is that Florida is a totally different animal compared to most states when it comes to container plants. We have intense sunshine combined with high temperatures in the summer. Potted plants absolutely need watering once a day at the minimum, and if we don't get a thunderstorm, will need watering a second time. Commercial ppotting soils are as dry as dust here in half a day. Most people in the south put compost in the mix in order to retain some moisture....otherwise we would have to water three or four times a day from May through November if we get a day without any rain. Clay pots work well for me because they do not get as hot as plastic pots, and they also breathe, which helps if we get a lot of summer rain. I haven't grown roses to a very large extent in pots before, but I have grown cooking herbs in containers for the past few years. It's actually a relief during the winter when we only need to water containers three times a week.

I can soak a potted rose with water and 4 hours later when I pop the plant out to re-pot, the roots are totally dry.

I do use water soluble fertilizers, mostly organic based ones, but I have also used Miracle Gro and Peters. I think plants in containers need the extra boost.

I'll keep a close eye on the soil and add more if needed. The rate the roses are growing, I will need to re-pot by fall anyway. I have a call in to Our Vital Earth, which is where I purchased my vermicomposting system, and also all the bagged manure/casting material I used. When they get back to me I'll ask what they think about the worms, and post what they say. If they're not harmful, I'll let them be for now. If harmful, I'll find out what to do. I'm thinking if they were harmful I would have seen a decline in the plants by now. They are icky though!

Sandy

Sandy,

In response to what you posted above (the rapid drying out of containers in your climate) I would like to offer a suggestion.

As you noted in containers your plants appear to benefit from the synthetic, soluble ferts. There is a reason for that. The organics you are using that mix readily with water are usually not soluble. They appear to be, but they merely have small (to the eye) particles that suspend in water, but aren't really soluble and aren't readily available to plants without biological processing. That's why the MG and Peters appear to 'give a boost'. In other words, if your growing philosophy allows it, I think your plants will be much happier if you skip the organics entirely (in containers) and use water soluble synthetic ferts.

On the issue of containers drying out rapidly I am actually smiling. I am smiling because organic and peat based mixes do tend to dry too much in hot weather. As they do so they become hydrophobic and do not easily absorb water again. Much of the irrigation water runs out the pot, but if you dig down in the mix you will find it quite dry. I am smiling because what you relate reminds me of my own fears years ago. As I read Al and other sources of information tell me that getting away from organic matter/peat in containers would lead to easier success I feared how rapidly the coarse mixes would dry out. In summer I was watering daily (peat based mixes) and my thinking was 'Yeah, right, Al. Like I am going to switch to a less water retentive mix and have to stand there 24x7 with a watering can, give me a freakin break, dude!'

That's the part that makes me smile. I have since switched to much more coarse mixes, some of which have zero organic component. No compost, no soil, no peat, no coir just inorganic stuff similar to tiny rocks.

You wouldn't believe how much water mixes like this hold. I actually experiment with ways to make them retain water less long. Granted I am in Wisconsin and my climate, other than in the 'dog days' of summer, is not comparable to yours in Florida.

Still, the advantages to the plants being in a fast draining, well aerated planting mix can't be beat. You mentioned that you potted up your roses, but if you use a fast draining mix you don't need to. You can start them in their final container size with no fear of overwatering due to the fast draining nature of your potting mix. The added volume of mix means it holds more water than a smaller container would be able to regardless of what was in the mix.

In other words, forget about potting up. That's for people using mixes that hold too much water for optimal plant growth to worry about. Use a coarse, gritty mix and put young plants right into a large container. This removes the necessity of potting up AND due to greater mix volume provides ample water to last them.

I never would have mentioned what JaG just said about his early resistance to soils with better aeration (because it would have sounded like "I told you so"), but I DO remember it clearly. I'm smiling really large right now, but it doesn't have anything to do with the 'I told you so' thing. We used to go at it pretty fiercely (well, for gardeners) about soils just after the turn of the century, ;o) but for the last several years, we've been pretty much in accord. He's fierce in an argument, but he has an open mind. That, and his determination to keep learning on his own (about all aspects of gardening, not just soils) is (IMO) what has made him such a valuable asset to GW.

I said all that, just so I could say I hope you weigh carefully what he said. It's very good advice. ;o)

Al

I have an earthworm that's been living in my cactus for 2 months now. Awesome. I check on the little bugger (safely) every once in a while. =)

Well, I spoke with Bernie from Our Vital Earth. The little white worms are just soldier fly larvae and are part of the composting system nature uses. They don't cause any harm and will eventually fly off. As mentioned, my roses are looking wonderfiul and putting on new growth...I just hadn't noticed white worms before.

I appreciate all the advice here. I honestly have no issues or problems with the way I blend my soil mix for my plants. Their health has assured me of that. I don't have a situation with the soil drying to the point that it is running down the sides without actually soaking the roots of the plant first, because of the fact that I do use some compost mixed in. Every climate has it's own unique things to deal with, and as I said, Florida is a totally different environment from anywhere else. In the summer we can have scorching dry heat, or we can get afternoons of torrential rains for days. Summer is our rainy season, so the mix has to be fairly fast draining, but not too much, and I use clay pots to further let the plant roots breathe. Otherwise fungus sets in. It really cannot be compared to anyone living further north than here. I used to live in Upstate N.Y and gardened there also. Like comparing apples and oranges. It could get very hot up there too, but it didn't last. Sometimes 60 degree days would follow 90 degree days. Wisconsin is a beautiful state, and we had gone to the Oshkosh fly-in in July for several years in a row. Sometimes I would need a down jacket, especially at night, and other years it would be 104 for 3 days in a row. Here we are hot every day this time of year with very little temperature fluctuation. (Don't believe me, come down in August some time. It can be downright miserable). However, both the north and the south are fun places to garden.

I also have used soluble non organic fertilizers, such as Miracle Gro, but only once in a blue moon. I primarily use things like Mills Liquid Feed or fish emulsion, and then only once in a while. I can't be bothered with it in the heat of summer here. We've been in the high 90's since May. I usually just put Mills Magic Mix or Purely Organic sprinkled in the container periodically. With our heat and humidity, very slow release organic mixes work the best. Other fertilizers can release nutrients too quickly in our heat and harm the plant. Even with something like Osmocote, the rule of thumb here is that if the package says it lasts 4 months, it will last only 2 here.

And I have to say, with roses, they have to gradually be potted up a size. If you put them in too large a pot to begin with they don't like it and usually die. Doesn't matter what the soil mix is. Other plants aren't as fussy about things, as I've put dinky herb plants in large pots with no problems.

tn veggie gardener, that's awesome you have an earthworm in your cactus. It means the environment for your plant is a good one.

justaguy2 and Al thanks so much. Maybe we'll get a chance to meet someday at some plant function. It would be fun to compare notes. I'm actually keeping your advice in mind, as my husband and I will most likely work towards being able to split our time between the north and south in the future. I truly feel that what you have discovered works so well for you, would be how I would have to approach things "up there".

Likewise, if you ever head south, I have loads of advice for you too.

Sandy

I don't think a few handfuls of bagged manure and wormcastings would impact a quality peat mix to the degree mentioned.

It wouldn't even be 10% of mix.

And I also understand that alfalfa is particularly recommended by some rosarians as it contains a chemical supposedly beneficial to roses so I can see why you included it.

The larvae wouldn't bother me one bit even though they look yukky. It wouldn't be a permanent situation anyway once the soldier flies take off. You can also mulch the top.

The crux of the matter is the belief that since you are not planting in a predominately bark based (or gritty) ) mix you will have poor or second rate results, period.

Though I understand that you do not want to redo what you have already done I think it would be interesting (and not very expensive) to mix up a small batch of a well draining mix and try it out on just 2 or 3 roses--for experimental purposes maybe a small bag of cactus or orchid mix with some coarse sand or Napa floor dry would do and then compare the two mixes. You would have to use MG fertilizer or something similar (dyna gro 9-3-6)as proponents of such a mix do not have good results with organic fertilizers.

Though I don't grow roses in containers I can imagine they would appreciate a well draining and aerated mix. Here is an article where they add a huge amount of compost and manure. But I frequently find articles may or may not have good advice. (certainly don't add the drainage in the bottom as recommended but that recommendation will not go away any time soon)

I just think experimenting leads to better methods and results over time as you either confirm or dispel firmly held cultural practices. I just wouldn't do 60 containers with one type of mix as you have nothing to evaluate your 'good' results against. Regardless, good luck with all your roses.

[Jag, while I appreciate what you are saying about eliminating the 'potting -up' step I wouldn't really like a small plant in a big pot from a purely aesthetic point of view. Yes it will grow eventually but you want it to fit proportionally to the pot.]

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses in Containers super dense mix

I think it depends on what your goals are. If you're using a well aerated mix, you have the option of choosing your container size based on your goals, and options are a good thing, especially if maximizing the increase in biomass is one of or the only goal. If you're using a heavy mix, you don't have the latitude to choose your container size to the same degree. Containers that are small from the necessity resultant from heavy soils limit growth, period.

Al

[Jag, while I appreciate what you are saying about eliminating the 'potting -up' step I wouldn't really like a small plant in a big pot from a purely aesthetic point of view. Yes it will grow eventually but you want it to fit proportionally to the pot.]

Agreed, aesthetically it may not be pleasing.

However, hearing that roses don't tolerate large pots when small regardless of the mix is interesting to me as I am growing roses this year for the very first time. I have a #1 rose in a 20" pot. It came potted and was pretty well rooted, but was in a 1 gal pot. So, it basically went from a 1 gal pot where it wasn't root bound to a 15-20 gallon pot. I guess time will tell how it does, but it's already blooming again and putting out new growth in spite of cruddy/cold weather in Wisconsin this year. It's in 75% bark, 25% turface.

Roses seem to be one of those plants that many regard as 'mystical' and requiring different care than most plants.

We shall see. My primary interest in growing a couple this year was to see (I doubt they are any different than any other plant). I have read so much info on roses that is contradictory and found so many who say they require special techniques that I figured I would just put it in a pot large enough for it full size and feed it Foliage Pro 9-3-6 and see how it goes.

Jag. one thing all the articles I have read mention is don't use a small container for roses. I didn't mean to imply that I would put a small rose in a small container.
I just wouldn't put it in a way-too-big pot if it looked 'funny'.

I agree that if you are going to add all sorts of dense additives (in reasonable and small amounts) it is better to have a big container. Plus maybe increase the good drainage components.

I have problem a similar to Sandy's. I am a novice organic gardener growing veges in containers on my balcony. My zucchini and cucumber plants have begun to flower, so I recently mixed bone meal fertilizer into the top layer of potting mix in both pots then covered them with cedar mulch to keep the surface dry. Still I have noticed flies hovering about and was afraid they might be laying eggs so I went to investigate.

Under the mulch there are now tons of maggots rooting about in my zucchini pot. So far the cucumber pot is clean but still attracting flies and I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before they get their eggs in there, if they haven't already. Is it the general consensus that the maggots themselves won't hurt the plant, but will affect the aeration maybe harming the plant in the long run?

I've put so much work into the plants (see link below for some photos). I could probably pull and re-pot the zucchini, but the cucumber vines are well established and attached to my balcony railing system already! I would really appreciate some advice.

thanks,
Ayma

p.s. I am in new york, where it has rained pretty much every day this June.

Here is a link that might be useful: Have Knives Will Cook

What the maggots will eat depends on what they are. Some maggots eat live plant material, others only decaying plant and/or animal matter. Perhaps they're there because the adult flies were attracted to the odor of the bone meal. BTW - bone meal breaks down so slowly in containers that it is of very little value. It's probably best used as a long term P and Ca amendment in the garden.

There are soil drenches that will effectively get rid of them, but I see you're employing organic methods, so I don't have any 'good' suggestions in that regard. Can you remove/replace the soil that contains the bone meal & get rid of the mulch so the top few inches of soil can eventually dry out?

Al