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eyesofthewolf

Help In over my head

16 years ago

Oh man I got carried away ordering plants through Henry Fields, I really am new to gardening, I think alot of us are changing from ornamentals to fruit and veggie production. Well anyway I ordered 2 Yumm Yumm nectarine trees and a grape vine, they were shipped bare root(something I am not familar with) and I recieved them today, I put them in 3 gallon pots with pine bark mulch (damp) just until I figure out what to do. This is my situation. I have sandy loam for 12inches then it starts to clay for about 6 more inches then to crumbles of limestone for another 8 to 10 inches below that is fairly heavy limstone, I have a bartlett pear tree that is 20 years old and seems to handle the poor growing conditions well I always get a great crop. my question is should I start these guys off by putting them in a raised bed of sandy loam maybe a foot thick just to get these kick started and then the roots will get established and later down the road 5 to 6 years from now they would be strong enough to grow through the scattered limestone? The second part of my question is after they are planted they say to prune the leading top branch off and trim the lateral branchs, seems so very drastic, they have broke dormancy and are in the very eairly stages of waking up. The grape vine is still sleeping, I am not so worried about the grape vine I have done my homework on those guys. I am so sorry to bother everyone on this website from the tomato growers to the soil forum I seemed to have bit off more than I can chew in my fervor to get the ediable garden to grow lol. I have scattered posts everywhere asking for help I think I am going to change my name from eyesofthewolf to NEEDY NEWBIE. Thank you to all you who share your knowledge with us greenhorns. :o)Deanna

Comments (18)

  • 16 years ago

    Henry Fields, huh? Wow, you really did take a gamble there. I hope you got what you ordered and that what you got arrived in good condition. Henry Fields has a very poor reputation. Next time (unless you're feeling lucky), you might want to check out potential suppliers with Garden Watchdog before ordering.

    As for your soil...how's the drainage? That is going to be the most critical factor. The vast majority of the roots of even most very large trees are in the top 12" to 18" of soil. If the drainage is good, there's no reason not to plant directly in the ground at normal level. If the drainage is poor, a large (as in wide) raised bed is often a good solution. I will provide a link to what I think are good planting directions, below. If you have any questions or comments about them, please email me.

    And now for pruning (at planting)...I wouldn't. There is really no reason to get in a hurry and prune at planting. In fact, there are reasons not to! Significant pruning (as in removing the top of the leader) slows establishment. This topic has been covered in a number of threads in this forum and others. If I were you, I'd wait to prune. There are many many threads throughout this forum about how and when to prune. Hopefully Gardenweb has enough threads archived (after all the data loss lately) to supply you with the info you desire. If not, just ask!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Planting a Tree or Shrub

  • 16 years ago

    Yep. Brandon's got it exactly right.

  • 16 years ago

    Well, since it's Brandon, I just have to suggest another angle. Nectarines will tend to do better in almost any soil on berns and if your soil is shallow probably other species as well. It sounds like your soil is much too shallow for optimum fruit production although mulch in itself can compensate a lot.

    It is a common practice in commercial fruit production that when topsoil is limited soil is scraped from the middles and moved to the tree rows. In a home orchard you can more easily create mounds of about 6-8' diameter- make em like a plateau so water doesn't run off and mulch them with wood chips or similar mulch to stop erosion and enrichen the soil. I like them to be about 18" higher then surrounding soil.

    It takes some added shovel work but the trees will respond with much better vigor and be less vulnerable to drought.

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks everyone, Yeah I know Henry is a big corp and I may run into trouble but my knowledge base is limited and I wanted to start somewhere. I will start the shoveling tommorrow and do the best I can. I am so glad you advised against drastic pruning that scared the *&%&^ out of me. I didn`t want to end up with dead trees. Thanks :o) Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    "I am so glad you advised against drastic pruning that scared the *&%&^ out of me."

    Deanna, don't let pruning scare you. You have some time, but you still need to address the pruning eventually. After you get the tree planted, take some time during the next few months to review threads related to pruning here in this forum. Prepare yourself, but don't worry too much about it. Many new fruit tree growers make too big of a deal about pruning technique and needlessly worry.

    When you are reviewing what others say about pruning, remember to take anything that Harvestman advises with a grain of a block of salt. ROFL

  • 16 years ago

    Brandon, I didn't say anything here about pruning, but if you have any specific issues, it is probably more useful to discus them directly, because I believe I can pretty much justify my methods and teqniques which are probably based on 100 times the volume of your actual experience and probably considerably more experience than anyone you use as a reference.

    Many of my customers are very knowledgeable gardeners (including one commercial grower who credits me for vastly increasing his yealds- google Thompson Cider Mill, Ossining NY, where he praises my work)and wouldn't pay my high fees if they didn't get results. My local cooperative extension sends me business with rave revues- you can call them at 845 278-6738 and ask for either of their horticulturalists in staff for a reference on Alan Haigh. I also was for years a paid instructer for the New York Botanical Garden's hort shchool on orchard establishment and care.

    Yes, I'm being defensive, and I know you'll claim you were only joking, but this is my profession and even on this forum I will defend my professional reputation- I've gotten a scattering of business from this site, after all. Not nearly enough to justify the time I've dedicated to it, but I just love blabbing fruit trees and trying to help other fans (equal parts kindness and ego, I'd guess).

    That said, Deanna, I think you can generally rely on Brandon's advice because he's a careful researcher and cares deeply about trees of all kinds. He sure doesn't much seem to like to have his research contradicted, though.

    By the way, Deanna, I don't know where you live, but in humid parts of the country, nectarines are a big challenge to grow.

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks for the input guys. Brandon Yes I will be studying up on pruning of trees, I am still confused about blackberries they seem so hard to understand what to prune maybe as they grow I will figure it out. But for this year I will leave the nectrines alone.
    Harvestman I live close to Austin texas and Fredricksburg peaches are a local crop so I thought if peaches can grow here maybe nectrines will be ok, I do meet the chill requirements we get average 700 chill hours, but our summers are hotter than hades last year we had a record year of 100 degrees plus for 67 days in a row, average humidity is 50 to 60% bugs are a problem. Our big cash crops are pecans and peaches. Figs do well. Other fruit trees I was thinking about are plums I am not sure if they can make fruit? They sell everything here at the local big box stores but no one really can tell you if they will thrive. Apple and Cherry trees are a no no here. I also planted pomagranit and have a container for my manderine tree, I will be hauling that baby in and out of the house for years until I get to old to do so, which isn`t to far away. Oh goodness I am rambling, I need to go start digging.
    P.S. drainage isn`t a problem I NEVER have standing water even in the most horrible of rain storms. Thanks :o) Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    Peaches don't suffer nearly as much from cracking and brown rot as nectarines and commercial growers will have a very active spray regimen against rot (amongst other pests) where you are, even for peaches. I say "even for peaches" not because they're easy but just easier than nectarines.

    I would recommend against your choice of nectarines strongly as a first foray into fruit growing, but I had to cut down most of the trees in my first eastcoast orchard experiment so don't feel alone if your first effort is more educational than fruitful.

    Glad you have good drainage- Brandon was (as usual) quite correct in his advice on that. That isn't to say that mound culture would have no advantage but it probably isn't at all necessary to go to the extra trouble. Especially if you mulch.

  • 16 years ago

    don't stress about pruning blackberries. 30 second lesson on blackberry pruning.

    1. Let it grow this year without pruning, unless a cane is bothering you. Cut it out if its blocking a path or something (cutting any cane out of a blackberry should be done about 2-3 inches above soil line)

    2. End of season, cut out any canes that have produced fruit (florocane). Leave any that haven't produced fruit (primocane)

    3. Cut out any thin, scraggly canes that emerge from base.

    that's it.

    ~Chills

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks Chills for simple instructions, the videos I have watched I think they try to make it difficult to follow them and when I get on the aggie websites they are way over my base of knowledge, :o) Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    Deanna there are some low chill apple and cherry trees that should thrive and produce nice fruit where you live.

    Cherries...

    Minnie Royal
    Medium-sized red cherry; firm with good flavor: ripens 11-14 days ahead of Bing; tree is very productive with a low chill requirement; mainly used as a pollinizer for Royal Lee. Pollenized by Royal Lee. Estimated chilling requirement: 200 to 300 hours. (US Plant Patent # 12942 Â Zaiger)

    Royal Lee
    Medium-large red cherry; heart shaped, very firm with excellent flavor; ripens 11-14 days ahead of Bing; tree is very productive with a low chill requirement; Pollenized by Minnie Royal (US Plant Patent # 12472 Â Zaiger) Estimated chilling requirement: 200 to 300 hours.

    Apples....

    Anna
    Remarkable fruit for mild-winter climates in So. Calif., So. Ariz. Heavy crops of sweet, crisp, flavorful apples even in low desert. Fresh/cooked. Keeps 2 months in refrigerator. 200 hours. Self-fruitful or pollenized by Dorsett Golden or Einshemer.

    Dorsett Golden
    Outstanding sweet apple for warm winter areas. Firm, very flavorful, sweet like Golden Delicious. Productive throughout So. California and Phoenix, Arizona. Good early season sweet apple for Central Calif. 100 hours. Self fruitful.

    Pink Lady (Cripps Pink)
    Hot climate apple from Western Australia. Very crisp, sweet-tart, distinct flavor, good keeper. Skin reddish-pink over green when ripe. White flesh resists browning. Harvest begins late October in Central CA, about three weeks after Fuji. Self-fruitful. 4-500 hours. Pat.No. 7880.

    There others too.

  • 16 years ago

    eyesofthewolf is right that apples are very difficult in most of Texas, because cotton root rot kills the trees, there are only about 250 acres in the state.

    (excerpt from linked article)

    "SOIL

    Cotton Root Rot- An indigenous soil-borne fungus (Phymatotrichum omnivorum) that is a serious death threat to apple trees planted on alkaline soils (pH above 7). The best option is to plant on soils with a pH below 6.5 (suitable soils are found primarily in the northern portion of the Hill Country (Gillespie, Mason, Llano, McCulloch, San Saba, and Burnet Counties).

    Attempts to battle cotton root rot- by soil acidification (with sulfur or sulfuric acid) and/or soil fumigation- can be expensive (around $1,800/acre) and results have been erratic. No apple rootstock has tolerance or resistance to cotton root rot.

    Cotton root rot infests as much as 50% of alkaline Hill Country soils. There is no reliable pre-plant test to determine if a site has cotton root rot. Trees planted on badly infested sites usually begin to die within 1-5 years after planting.
    Phytopthora Collar Rot- can cause tree death on soils with moderate to fair water drainage.
    MM 106 rootstock is particularly susceptible and should not be used on such sites."

    For cherries I'd suggest cherry-plum bushes which do well here. Womack's has one named Hiawatha.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Texas Apples

  • 16 years ago

    thisisme thanks for the list the royal lee sounds great,
    eskota that information on apples clears up a question I had when my apple tree declined and died it put up a fight but lost I had no idea then what had killed it. I just read over the list of resistant or tolerent trees and there are not many fruit trees on the list :( I may have to stick with dwarf fruit trees in containers. Thats to bad too, my mom has 1 acre of land that used to be farm land 25 years ago, all the rocks and trees have been removed I had wanted to set up a small varied orchard a few trees of whatever I could find that does well here, might be a gamble now that I know cotton root rot is a problem. Thanks for the info. :o)Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    Deanna, most fruit trees will do well for you there, but apples would probably need the soil sterilized before planting. I'd ask for advice locally (extension agents, nearby orchards, nurseries) about your project before spending hundreds of dollars.

  • 16 years ago

    Yes eskota I will do my homework before I lay out cash, and really apples are not my favorite fruit so I can live without. I really love nectarines, plums, cherries and a good juicy pear.:o)Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    Would someone who grows fruit in TX give Deanna a heads up about the generally required spray regimen for succesful nectarine culture there? Here in southeasten NY they generally require double the spray as peaches for brown rot control IME. Fruitnut considers it worthwhile to do all his production under plastic where he is in TX.

    Deanna, one thing I can tell you that definately will apply to your climate- the stonefruit that ripens earliest will tend to be the least susceptable to brown rot.

    Have you researched pest control at all? Are you prepared for that aspect of your tree managment? I really consider this worthwhile to be aware of ahead of time because it usually makes or breaks fruit production in home orchards anywhere in the country that gets significant summer rain. It is not enough to get disease resistant varieties, because they protect against only a fraction of potential pests.

  • 16 years ago

    Harvestman, I do need to research on pest control for sure but I think that rain is not a problem because after May we have dry conditions, we are not like east texas or around the Houston area, we may not see any rain for weeks at a time in fact I will have to water during the hot summer months, our major rain fall is winter and spring not so much even in the Fall last year we went like 70 days no rain, I just read over our county aggie lit and the main concern for peaches and nectarines is that we have a late freeze it warms up and they bud then zap in comes a freeze not every year about 1 in 3. I am not looking to sell fruit I just want a few trees for the family. And if I don`t try then I will be stuck buying from the store for sure. My granddaughter is 3 now and I think that it would be so cool if she remembers her Oma`s house the place she could go out and pick something from a tree and eat it. So I will do research, ask questions and give it my best shot, and I won`t buy anymore trees from anyone that isn`t a local nursery. Thanks for your concern Harvestman I know you don`t want to see someone spend money and have failures. Hope you have a great growing season :o)Deanna

  • 16 years ago

    Deana,good, I was only familiar with the weather in the eastern side of the state- you are lucky not to have to deal with summer rain and high humidity. I take back my dire warnings but as you are realizing, it will probably be easier to grow varieties, including nectarines, that are proven where you are. I'm sure you'll work it out and I really hope you have a wonderful adventure with your orchard.

    Good luck, Alan H.