Can't help with most questions. But can say 2 Caroline berries filled up my 3 x 7 foot bed in the second season. Although many are just baby plants, but it has over a hundred seedlings.

Thanks for the help. Wow, I wouldn't have thought 2 plants would fill that much that quickly. Good to know! Did you get berries off of them last year? How many?

The amount you want depends on what you want to do with them. If you want the occasional berries for your cereal kind of thing you will have enough. If you want to make raspberry cobbler etc you will find that not enough. This is raspberries. Blackberries will give you more for the space. For my family of four I just put in 40' of blackberries and 60' of raspberries. I had an old planting of about 80' total but it was not getting enough sun and was more in the "berries for cereal" category.

Scott

Oh, I was looking more for cobbler - I'd like to be able to get the quantity of fresh berries that are too expensive to buy in the store. Will two 3x7 beds of Blackberries or Boysenberries be enough for a few cobblers or some jelly? It is a small space - maybe I should just move on from the berry idea.

Thanks again for the info.

14' of blackberries should be plenty for cobblers, once the plants have some maturity. Trellised varieties produce more than erect.

Thanks! I will stick with Blackberries then, instead of giving up on the berries. I am looking forward to having them.

I also agree that blackberries are a better use of space. Since that is a concern for you, you might want to check out the most productive blackberry (that I've ever heard of)... Doyle. According to Jellyman (and others), they really are as productive as the site describes. Although I already have others, I just planted my Doyles yesterday. -Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: DOYLES THORNLESS BLACKBERRIES BACK HOME AGAIN IN INDIANA (page 12)

Thanks for the link - those sound amazing. I remembered reading about them on here recently, so went back & looked at those posts. It sounds like they really do deliver what they say.

The spot I am thinking of has the beds running north/south. If I have the berries trellised on either the east or west side of those beds, will that work? I guess that way they will get either morning or afternoon shade. Is one better than the other?

Thanks again!

tisiree-
Hopefully I'll be able to vouch for them myself next year! (when I get berries)

I guess I'm not sure of your question... My other blackberry trellis runs North/South and it's not a problem... They get sun on the east side in the morning, and on the west side in the afternoon. The trellis is just some pipe and wire. Are you talking about some sort of solid trellis which wouldn't allow sun on both sides? If so, I'd avoid that. I'd think you'd want to give them as much sun as possible.
-Glenn

"How many plants could I fit in 2 3'x7' raised beds? We are a family of 4 - I don't want to use the bed space if we will not end up with enough berries to make it worthwhile"

I've read several times that it's more beneficial to have afternoon light than morning light if you have to choose. With such little space you may want to look in to intensive or compact gardening methods to use every square foot to it's potential. ie. Growing cane fruit down the center foot of the beds with compact shrubs at the sides and strawberries along the edges. You could also have a dwarfing standard fruit tree at the north sides. That's still 14 square foot of blackberries and raspberries, a barrowload of strawberries and too many blueberries! :D
Personally I'd try going even more intensive with trellises at the north sides and 3 small standards along each bed but that's just me. If you do this kind of thing you would need to partition the soil to keep the rubus contained and the vaccinium in it's optimal pH. I don't think a lack of sunlight would pose a problem where you are, this kind of arrangement should easily provide enough fruit.

"I've read several times that it's more beneficial to have afternoon light than morning light if you have to choose."

That's one of the tough things about gardening... it always seems like there is all sorts of conflicting advice. On this forum, especially with apples and other fruits that get diseases, I've always seen the opposite advice... that morning sun is better because it dries off the plants quicker in the a.m. and that helps a lot with disease. Also, some plants can take the full morning sun, but don't do well with the very hot afternoon sun (my gooseberries are that way for example).
-Glenn

Those are very good points that I've never heard before. In fact I have some plants that are apparently supposed to be shaded from morning light (I think Feijoa is one). I've only been growing anything for about 5 years so I'd hate my comments to carry more weight than they're worth, I was mostly referring to the intensity of sunlight in the afternoon being greater (11 - 2pm being greatest) when I said beneficial. I'll bear your post in mind when I plant in future, thanks.

My gooseberries are the same I learned the hard way, even in this climate where every bit of sunshine counts. I grew them in full shade under pines the first summer and they loved it, had lots of new shoots, flowers and fruit started developing well but I needed them moved. In full sunlight they really did badly. I got about 20 smallish berries on the 6 plants the next year. The year after was even worse, 1 berry amongst them and the leaves were all getting eaten as they appeared. They went in to dormancy that year looking very poor with very few leaves between them but all survived. By that spring I'd almost wiped out my slug problem and they fared much better. Keeping the plants well watered during the heat helped a lot too. This year they're getting back to their original form so far and I may even get some good new growth. I'll put a suitable mulch down, keep killing the slugs and keep them watered but if I'd known how badly they dislike too much sun, I'd certainly have left them in the shade.
Of these varieties; Pax, Winham's Industry, Leveller, Black Velvet, Whitesmith and Hinomaki Red, the Pax seemed to take these conditions the best though there wasn't much between them.
I've got currants and a few other Ribes dotted around, divaricatum, aureum, gayanum and alpinium. They're all looking good but no berries to try as yet apart from the usual currant varieties. None of them mind full sun either as far as I can tell, just the gooseberries. Cheers.

Mootube-
I'm sure the is a bit of truth in both sides of the argument depending on where you live and other enviormental conditions.

It seems that your gooseberry experience with full day sun is similar to mine, and others. We were talking about that recently on this thread.
Have a good one...
-Glenn

That settles it then, they'll have to be moved again. Not such a bad thing as full sun spots are at a premium here but I'm not short of shadier areas. I thought I was doing them a favour.
I'd love to see the Black Velvet in particular produce some fruit. Thanks Glenn.

Hi mootube-
Glad to help! Though, don't put too much stock in what I say... I only have one Gooseberry... but I've seen that same story repeated quite a few times now here on these forums. In contrast though, it was surprising that very-experienced Harvestman was able to grow them in full sun. Make sure you get a few opinions, and that those stories match closely with yours before moving your gooses. Reply back here on the subject when you know the verdict! Good luck! -Glenn

"Are you talking about some sort of solid trellis which wouldn't allow sun on both sides?"

I guess I was thinking that when the berries grew up, they would block the sunlight from going through the trellis. I am new at this so having a hard time picturing everything. The only blackberries I have ever seen were growing wild, and HUGE - no sunlight got through them. Our summer days are so long and 100 degree hot that I doubt they would mind a little shade if they did get it, though.

"Growing cane fruit down the center foot of the beds with compact shrubs at the sides and strawberries along the edges."

Would there be room to do this in a 3' wide bed with Doyle blackberries? I was thinking they would need the trellis on one side or the other of the bed so they had the whole 3' of width to stretch into. I am trying to plant intensively, though, and the more I can cram in (without harming the plants), the better! Plus, visually, it would be better with the trellis in the middle just because of where the beds will be.

Thanks!

Hi Tisiree-
Hmmm...
Yes, when the blackberries fill in, they may indeed stop light from going through the trellis. But, that's not really the point. The trellis is very thin and stops very little light... so, for the sake of argument, let's pretend it's not even there. If you had a plant standing all by itself, and it had sun on it all day, you wouldn't even think too much about what side of the plant was getting the sun... it's simply that the plant, as a whole, gets full sun.

If you take a look at one of my trellises in this thread, you may see what I mean. In morning, it gets sun from the back, and in the afternoon, it gets sun from the front... but we don't worry about that... it's the total combined sun that matters. Unless of course you were using some sort of solid trellis which blocks light.

Also, I'm trying to understand the 3' wide part. When you grow the blackberries on a trellis, they're almost 2D. (Yes, there are laterals which stick out towards the top, but especially towards the bottom, in my mind, the plant is 2D. Therefore, my blackberry beds are only 1Â wide or so (though IÂm sure the roots go under the grass, etc.) But, you do need to allow quite a bit of room on either side of the Doyles. Their instructions say you need about 6 feet of trellis. This was also backed up by Olpea in this thread..

IÂve only been growing blackberries for about 3 years, so definitely get other opinions! Does this clarify things at all? Anyway, hope this helps.
-Glenn

Glenn, it's tempting to try to do what Harvestman has succeeded at and have them equipped to deal with the sun but my idea was to have a variety and watch it naturaly thrive in it's environment with minimal help so I'll stick with the rest of us and have them in conditions they are comfortable in. Plenty of sun with a bit of shade in morning or afternoon I think, where the soil won't get too dry in the hottest months. It has been disheartening these p[ast few years until I saw that thread, so thanks a lot.

Tisiree, I was thinking of upright canes that wouldn't need trellising though looking at this lovely picture of Doyle, I can imagine your central trellis working really well. http://www.rlrouse.com/pic-of-the-day/doyle-blackberries.jpg
Doyle is producing some fruit at a low height in the pic, you may have some fruit that won't develop but unless the rows of shrubs are very densely leaved, even these should be ok. Pruning some of the heavily shaded low fruit early will allow the blackberries to transfer their energy resources to other places too and the keepers should benefit. From the picture, it even looks like any added depth over 1 - 1.5 foot on the trellised doyle is wasted space you can do without in your beds

I think a layout like we're talking about would use your beds very well. To grow blueberries, select the shorter, non vigorous cultivars (I like Goldtraube as one if it suits your environment) and don't use any tap water, just collected water from streams or rainfall. Of course there are other small shrubs you can use too, I also wanted to mention Cape Gooseberry to you as something to try. If you prune every branch of these to about 30cm, they'll bush out and deliver a lot of rich tangy fruit. As someone said, if Microsoft designed a fruit, it would be this (Physalis peruviana). I think he is too big a fan of Mr Gates myself. Try out one of these in your bed, it will also yield hundreds of easy to grow seeds if (more like when) you want more.

If you get 100 degree temps you will want morning sun and afternoon shade, or else use shade cloth on your berries as they start to ripen (the blooms will be mostly over by then and insects will be long done pollinating); hot afternoons will reduce the quality of the berries once they turn a dark color. Harvest before noon, or even earlier on hot days. Do not spray water on plants with ripening fruit--the berries might mold.

Caneberries require room to harvest, they are not a 1-foot operation! Unless you can reach all the potential fruit without stepping up on or into your raised bed (and do pruning), put any other plants directly in line with the caneberry row. You may need to keep your canes lower than the typical 5- or 6-feet tall, otherwise you will be climbing into bed with these berries, or using small ladders. It is hard to keep some ripe and over-ripe fruit from falling on the ground, and the seeds readily sprout and need pulling when 2-3 inches tall. This could occur anyplace in the 3x7 foot bed.

I need to make a correction for my post above (too bad GW doesn't allow editing of posts!). My Doyle instructions actually say they want 8 feet of space on the trellis, not 6. Good thing I put the iron pipe crosses on the ends of my trellis... to allow for future expansion... and in this case, I may make little "wings" that come off the top.
-Glenn

This has all been really helpful to me!

Glenn,

I saw a picture of your trellis on that other post after I posted here yesterday. It looks really clean and nice. I guess the trellis I had in mind was redwood ready-made stuff - that blocks a significant amount of light on its own. I would much rather copy your idea, or get my husband to copy your idea, that is. :)

I think I will look at decreasing the width of the raised beds to 1.5' or so. They will be accesible from both sides, and at that width I would not have to step into the beds much (I think). Until I saw your pictures, I had never seen such a controlled blackberry before. I was thinking of the six foot mounds of thorny canes we had wild in our "backyard" further north in California growing up. I honestly never would have thought they could look so nice (and not frightening to small children :)

Just to clarify, when you say Doyle need 8 feet of space on the trellis, do you mean vertical or horizontal space? May be a dumb question, but I wasn't sure. If you did mean vertical, then how far apart should the plants be spaced in the ground?

I've never had a gooseberry before - what are they like? If the Doyle is THAT prolific, maybe I could do one bed of Doyle and another bed of something else. If I put a redwood trellis with something growing on it at the west side of one of the beds, that would give them some afternoon shade as the summer gets really hot.

Sorry if I am overthinking all of this - I have learned it is cheaper and less frustrating to look at all of the options on paper than it is to plant without knowledge. I've lost way too many plants that way before!

Hi Tisiree-
Glad this has been helpful. When I started doing fruit about 3 years ago, I really had no clue. I asked a lot of questions up here (and still do), and lots of people have really helped me along the way which is why I like to (try to) help others in areas that I think I can.

There are some advantages of a redwood trellis. For one, I think it would be quite a bit less expensive. All the hardware in one of my trellises really adds up.

Right having the beds be assessable from both sides is key. I made this mistake with my original beds (both raspberries and blackberries), and so we often wind up walking on our very steep slope to get around the back. But, then again, with the layout of my yard, I didnÂt have a whole lot of choice, and might wind up doing it that way again. With the new trellis, I can easily walk around back and I even made it just wide enough that I can run one pass with the mower.

Well, my blackberry trellises are 8 feet high simply because thatÂs how high I can reach. (IÂm 6Â4"). But, I have heard of people making them much shorter. Because youÂre interested in maximizing your space, IÂd recommend making them as tall as you can reach comfortably. But, what I had meant was that DoyleÂs want 8 of horizontal space (according to their planting instructions). This is a case of "do what I say, not as I do" because I have really only allowed for 6 feet for my Doyles but, I could (and may) add a 2 extension on the side of my trellis to make up for it.

ItÂs hard to describe a gooseberry sort of a mix of sweet and tart with the texture like a tough grape. IÂd say theyÂre good, but not as good as something like a ripe blackberry. Then again, the Pixwell variety I have is considered to be inferior in the flavor department. Hopefully my Hinnomaki which is coming in a month will taste better. Sure, if you plan it properly, you may be able to use your blackberries to shade the goose from the hot afternoon sun. Good luck with planning your shadows!

I make my best planting decisions when I have a long time to think about them. If I try to rush a new idea the day before itÂs time to put it in the ground, I often donÂt make the best choice (variety, location, etc). Already thinking about what to add for next year!

Good luck!
-Glenn

Wow, eight feet of horizontal space - so only 1 plant per 7' bed? But if they are as prolific as everyone says, that would be enough, wouldn't it?

Thanks again for the help - hopefully in a few years I will know enough to help someone else who needs it!

A raised bed 1.5 or 2 feet wide (extends one foot each side of the canes) would be OK and prevent entering the bed to harvest or prune.

You can space your canes as close as 2 feet without the roots interfering much with each other, but pruning such a dense row would be a chore. Given 7 feet (most wood comes in 8-foot lengths, do you run out of room at 7 feet?) I would use two plants, about 1.5 feet in from each end. You don't want to rely on one berry clump because if anything happens to it, you are out of luck for that year!

For height, a short 2- or 3-step ladder on solid ground could make harvesting easier on 6-foot or taller raised-bed canes. Or measure your husband. Remember that you will likely be plucking hundreds of berries at one picking, several pickings per year, and you don't want to be reaching out for each and every fruit.

Tisiree-
Define "enough"! Someone once said I'd just need a couple raspberry beds. 15 beds later.... Are these berries for fresh-eating just you and your husband? kids? are you planning on making things with them as well?

Larry-
I get the impression that the Doyle's really do take up the 8 feet (like their literature says). If she can only do a 7 foot bed, I'd only do 1 plant in the middle. I agree, you'd prefer not to put all your eggs in one basket... so, even better would be to go with 2 7-8' trellises for 2 plants!
-Glenn

Larry,

My husband got a kick out of that. I do have a very tall sister...

I do run out of room at 7', at least the way I am thinking of laying everything out now. So far this year I have doubled my planned bed space and cut my lawn in half, though, so who knows?

Glenn,

Oh, enough is a tough question. The two of us and two boys who will be teenagers in the not-too-distant future. I would love to have enough for pies and such, so I guess I really would like to have a lot.

Please post your experiences as your Doyles grow this year - I really am curious as to spacing and taste. I won't be doing those beds until next year, so I still have time to change things around.

Thanks!

-Kristi

Hi Kristi-
Well, it actually won't be until next year that I actually start getting the berries, but you can find tons of info right now. Start with this posting from Jellyman (Don Yellman). His info has evolved a little over the years, so make sure to read his more recent posts here on GW. Just search for "Doyle Don Yellman", and you'll find more info than I could ever give!
-Glenn

I'll look at those - thanks!

-Kristi