I interplant companion herbs fairly closely--like, planting basil thickly around my tomatoes and peppers, and putting dill plants right in amongst the cukes. The thing is, dill and basil have shallow root systems and tend to get shade-limited as their companions grow up, so they're pretty much non-competitive.

And as far as whether 5' is too much or not enough space between dill and carrots...well...isn't it possible you're driving yourself a little too crazy with the analysis? When I hear you say "my head is spinning" I wonder if the planning has stopped being fun, and if it has, you might be overthinking.

If that's the case, my two pence is to go with five feet and see if it works. There's always next year.

Yer real-person-type pal...

Ed

then instead of a row of basil i should plant between each plant? Well that is a thunk i hadn't thunk of!!!! can i plant my dill even if i am trellising (sp) my cukes? and if i can do that then that will put my dill over 12' away and that even i wouldn't be worried about.

as far as stopped being fun - no the planning is what i thrive on during these below 0 wind @ 30mph days watching my husband load the firewood boxes for a change!!!!

Any thoughts on the Oregano?

Well...when you say "should" plant between each plant...I'm just saying you can if you want.

Hmm...thoughts on oregano. Well, it'll run like crazy and take over whatever space you give it, so I'd put it in its own little area and keep it cut back. But it plays well with others, in my experience. I have it on the end of a row where it can spread out a little. I've grown it next to garlic and sweet potatoes and tomatoes and peppers and carrots and radishes.

Dill and cukes: in east Tennessee I start dill by about the first of May, and I don't start cukes until the second week of June or so...so the dill gets the jump on the cukes and then the cukes catch up.

Ed

the should i was really meant to be a can i? I didn't know if they would compete too much being that close together.

if oregano is that much of a take over then i think i will leave it out until i get my bearings with the larger space.

do you start your dill and cukes inside?

No, I direct-sow both in the garden. Cucurbits don't like being transplanted, and dill's a quick grower.

Ed

I like to plant the basil between the tomatoes too. It gets huge and I've never had problems with hook worms and the bees are thick if I let it flower and then cut it way back a few times during the season.

I've never done the dill thing but I'm trying it this year. Maybe the dill interspersed with the cucumbers will keep the cucumber beetles to a minimum.

You might want to plant some onions around the tomatoes too or some clives.

I am trying the wide row garden this year does that make a difference in how much basil in between the tomatoes? and should tomatoe plants really be as close together as the "joy of gardening" book says (1-1/2 feet)?

and can you tell me what a clive is?

clive? Perhaps you mean chives which are an oniony herb.
See link below.

1½ feet between tomatoes is a bit close for normal sized varieties....2½ sounds better.

Here is a link that might be useful: chives

In Dick Raymond's book "Joy of Gardening" he says he had planted 18 tomatoe plants in a 30' length that would put them at 1.66 feet apart. He states that planted that close together they shade the ground providing better moisture rentention as well as keeping the weeds shaded so as to keep them at bay. Did I get the wrong book to learn about the wide row method?

I figured shebear meant chive but wanted to be sure! Maybe something new had popped up along the way!

1 1/2 feet will work IF you plan to do a massive amount of pruning of the plants. But if you plan to do little or no pruning then 3-4' apart is the usual recommendation. But it also depends on how to plan to support them - cages or stakes? Staked tomatoes can be planted closer than caged tomatoes.

The Joy of Gardening is a rather old and somewhat outdated book. Not that it is bad but it isn't ideal for a beginner and like all things in gardening, it should be taken with a grain of salt. There is no absolutely one right way to garden. ;)

You will have more than enough problems your first few years while learning without adding overcrowding and the problems that causes to the mix. A garden plan is a great thing but it is just a plan and it needs to be as flexible as possible because the real garden seldom sticks to the plan.

Also keep in mind that while companion planting is subscribed to by some, it isn't subscribed to by all or even most gardeners so please don't consider it mandatory in any way. Millions of us garden very successfully without using any companion planting.

Plan your garden around the vegetables you wish to grow, not around the compaion plantings. Companion plants can always be added to established rows, tucked in here and there as needed or desired.

Meanwhile, check out the Companion Planting forum here for specific details on this particular approach to gardening.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Companion Planting

amprice, Do you buy and eat brussel sprouts? One of my mistakes as a beginning gardener was planting too many vegetables that I had rarely (if ever) eaten. Swiss Chard comes to mind. To me, it was mysterious and pretty but I didn't eat one bit of it! Don't get me wrong. Growing new vegetables is fun and good for your health if you end up liking them. But when I first started, I went overboard and had a disappointing season or two.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some vegetables are more labor intensive than others - like sweet corn. I love sweet corn but found I was better off buying it from the farmerÂs stand down the road. It gave me more room to grow tomatoes. We consume far more tomatoes than corn and canÂt find (or am not willing to pay the high price for) heirloom tomato varieties at market.

Absolutely Love brussel sprouts (even frozen). Everything I have chosen are things that even my picky teenage daughter will eat. Already knew I wasn't doing corn - friends do 2 acres just up the road that we can get cheap. Going to try doing a wide row of multi crop with carrots,radishes, spinach, and lettuce to see how that works. Don't know about anybody else but i am already stir crazy - we have had so much snow already I can't even tell where my garden fence is. Come on SPRING!!!

I used to have a home garden plot about that size, and while I was growing corn and pumpkins, it was still really too big. Over the years I have evolved from a 3000 sq foot garden down to a series of smaller gardens that amount to about 250 square feet of bio-intensive potager-type gardens, similar to square foot gardens, with lots of containers. (in zone 5 you will find that some heat lovers just do so much better in containers).

But, I was a full time stay at home mom back when I was growing on 3k sq ft. When the kids got older, able to care for themselves (read too busy/cool to hang with mom) and college got closer my priorities changed, and with a full time job, gardening time is reduced so you have to stick to what is important and brings you the most pleasure. It all depends on your situation, and you know situations are constantly changing.

By the way, you will find that your picky daughter just gets pickier once she gets used to garden-fresh veggies. My teen-age sons look down their noses at canned and frozen veggies. Unless they are canned or froze at home.

Kay.

While I am not quite a "stay at home mom" I am as close as I have ever been (6 hours 3 days a week in the office) with 1 teenager left at home (3 grown and 1 granddaughter) who I am hoping will help with this spread in the summer. I want very badly for the 60 x 45 to evolve into the rest of the 2 acres into producing grounds. We are researching chickens and have also planted 2 varities of apples, peach and pear along with 2 blueberry bushes. You see my drive to the office is just under an hour and I hate it. Any advice I can get from past experience seems to me to be the most beneficial and appreciated.

And when I serve veggies at dinner the first question now is "are these ours?". But really the only one that I can't seem to get the complete thumbs up for is Peas, she says they are just not as sweet and too hard. How can I preserve these other than a quick blanch and frozen to get her approval?

For peas--forego the shelling peas and go for sugar snaps. Less waste, sweeter, and tend to please even the picky pea eaters.

For those looking to go large...if you're not into canning or have the space to freeze...you might want to reconsider what to grow (including fruit trees) unless you have a social group (church/charity/friends/neighbors) you can give excess to once you labor all of it out of your garden.

Never underestimate what more than just "a couple" of summer squash/zucchini plants can do or how quickly they can do it for you.

If you are into canning/freezing...you're going to have a lot of fun and eat some good food.

If you're not sure you're into canning/freezing. The upfront costs of both can be a downer, but they pay off if you do it right for long enough.

Can't help with the peas. We are not a pea eating family - with the exception of snow peas! The guys go nuts when I pick a mess of snow peas and will eat them all even if it means that snow peas is all they eat for dinner.
Oh, definitely do the chickens!! I have a hen house and will never be without one. Mind, no roosters are allowed in my hen house. I have had a few bad experiences with angry roosters and now put them in a stew pot before they first crow. There is just no comparison between store bought eggs and those fresh from your own healthy chickens! They are thicker, firmer, cook slower and have this thing that store bought eggs don't. It's called flavor. Amazing.

I used to keep 20-30 laying hens, which netted me about 15-25 eggs per day. Which was fine when I was at home because the "fresh eggs" sign on the front lawns meant drop-ins all week long. It paid for all the feed and gave me some pocket change to boot. Now I keep half a dozen or so and that is enough for us, the boys and the in-laws. What I don't give to friends and neighbors I sell at work.

And then there is the easy composting. You can feed your chickens literally ALL of your food scraps, including meat and bones. They convert it all to a lovely brown substance that your gardens will love.

Kay.

Made a quick stop at one of our local second hand stores while I was in town this morning and was able to pick up a 2nd canning pot with the accossories for $5. Oh I did a little happy dance thinking how much quicker I can get through all those apples (applesauce, jelly) grapes (just jelly) and tomatoes next harvest.

Kay - how many eggs does 6 chickens lay on average? And I see you are in 5A so you must be close to us - we are right on the mississippi river bordering Iowa and Illinois about 40 miles north of the quad cities - so did you have to get any kind of license or permit to sell your eggs? Did you sell any of your vegetable excess as well?

Does anybody know about special permits for Illinois to sell at a road side stand?