Thanks TexasWeed for clarifying. So the guy sold me the wrong stuff. Hope I won't have a problem getting the 39-0-0 in exchange... It is weird as I told him a sod farmer recommended the 39-0-0 and instantly he started shaking his head "no" to that idea.

So how much does the 39-0-0 cost? I don't want to get sticker shock when I take this bag back. Hopefully I don't have another hour wait today exchanging this bag.

Texas Weed, any idea why this guy recommended me the 8-10-10 50% PPSCU AS TR FL (015322)for my Bermuda plugs? I did tell him I wanted the 39-0-0 slow release as per your instructions and that these were plugs planted 1 month or 2 ago.

Just got off the phone with the Lesco one town away and he wanted to sell me the 46-0-0 and I said I really need the 39-0-0, but he didn't stock it at that store, and is calling a manager and hopefully will be able to pick it up at the other store and bring it to this other store so I can exchange it this weekend.

He also mentioned a product I am curious about. It is a moisture manager liquid that will work down into the rootzone and take water from the air and will work up to 3 months. Anyone have any experience with this? I am interested in it mainly since there are severe water restrictions here and only 1 day a week watering and with the sand down here, (and no rain in the near future) that isn't cutting it.

He also recommended the bag of Milorganite but I told him the lower content of actual nitrogen was my concern and would probably negate any cost savings.

The 46-0-0 will work, too, but you'll need to adjust the amount you use to get 1 lb per 1000 sq ft. To get 1 lb N from 39-0-0 takes about 2.5 lbs. To get 1 lb N from 46-0-0 takes about 2.1 lbs.

One key thing is that originally you said TW advised you to get the fert with slow release so you want to make sure that whatever you get has some slow release N in it.

bpgreen, right. The 46-0-0 is not a slow release specific product which is what I told the Lesco rep, which he gave me sort of a "well it is a great product and I think it will work out really good for you." Do these guys really know what they are doing?

For your plugs you want a balance fertilizer to get them established. How big of an area are you talking about?

Texas-Weed they are randomly scattered in cetain sections, other spots I have them in approx a 20x20 ft area. They are pretty well established as I can't even lift the plugs out of the ground, they are solid.

The lesco guy probably sold you the balanced "shrub" fert because you told him you were trying to get the grass to spread from plugs. Either that, or he was trying to get rid of some slow moving inventory.

I agree, a more balanced fertilizer is great to help get it to spread. Then once it's going, switch back to a mainly nitrogen product. You don't want the 46-0-0 urea because it will create a feast/famine problem - you want something with some slow release nitrogen so it slowly feeds the turf instead of jacking it and then starving it.

I have used the moisture manager, and it is a great product. They sell it in a hose-end sprayer and I use it when summer comes around.

A bag of 39-0-0 100%slow release will run you around $30/bag.

Thanks guys, I did go back today and returned the bag for the 39-0-0 controlled release. It was a little over $24 so I was happy about that. Also bought 2 quarts of the Ecosential Moisture Manger. Question for you Denver, it comes in the hose end sprayer but it the amount regulated in the correct amount? What I mean is I have a Gilmour Dial - A - Spray hose end sprayer and you set the rate / per gallon of chemical depending on what you are using. This Ecosential sprayer just has ON/WATER/OFF settings. Since I will be spraying these in the areas with the plugs, how does one know how much to apply as the general rates are for 1000 sq feet, and I'm not sure how much of this product is being sprayed as in gallons per minute.

pkapeckopickldpepprz be patient my friend. I don't know what the weather is like in your area right now, but I suspect it is still a bit on the cool side. Wait til th eweather warms up before you go pushing the Bermuda grass. Daytime highs need to be 88 to 90 plus for the Bermuda goes into high gear.

I have not use Ecosetial Moisture Manager, but I am familar with it. It is a copy of something called Nitron-35. Basically home brewed beer, soap, without the alcohol, and some simple sugars. There is no specified application rate. Its made for heavy clay soils and I suspect you have sandy soils? You just apply it until you see it accumilate on th eground with some suds.

Here is a link for the moisture manager....
http://ecosentialmoisturemanager.com/
It is different than nitron. There is a video there and plenty of technical data. It is not an enzyme - it is a surfactant/soil penetrant mixed with hydretain, which attracts moisture and contains humectants, so it keeps things wet longer - in this case it keeps moisture around your root system. It is a wonderful product.

The general application rate is 9 oz per 1,000sqft, but you don't have to be all that accurate, especially if you water it in. In a perfect world, that quart would cover about 3500 sqft. I make mine cover about 4300sqft. If you use the container that it comes in, it will come out a little fast, so you have to move quickly. Spray a little bit in your potted plants on your porch as well.

Texas-Weed, it's been in the 80's all week here. There are severe water restrictions, and that combined with sugar sand I need all the help I can get in keeping the plugs from drying out. I have been cheating by watering 2x a week.

Denverdude, I tried the Moisture Manager this morning at 7am. I watered the area pretty well first and allowed it to soak in and then 10 minutes later I applied the moisture manager. You're not kidding it foams/suds up pretty fast. I only sprayed each plug area for like a second and then turned off the flow. I wanted to err on the side of caution. Then as it soaked in I sprayed off the grass as I was told if it stands on the grass it will burn it up real quick. Hopefully I will notice a difference within a week or two.

As I mentioned in previous posts the plugs that are in mostly shade are doing GREAT! Nice deep blue/green and healthy as can be. The full sun areas with the plugs they are 50/50 tan straw colored mixed with green/blue. When I get home from work the full sun areas look very heat stressed water stressed as the green/blue color is very dull. I am glad I found out about this product as this will help during this drought along with the severe water restrictions.

Products with iron, manganese and other micronutrients will help to create and hold the green color better. Another product lesco sells is iron plus. It has no N, P, or K, but has 20% iron, as well as a bunch of other micro nutrients. A 50# bag covers 10 to 20,000sqft. You could apply that every once in a while to help hold your color since the 39-0-0 only has nitrogen and sulfur.

By the time you've created a jerry baker recipe that you think might work, you've wasted a 12 pack of coca-cola and a bottle of baby shampoo and a host of other products and spent 30 bucks anyway, and you still don't know if it will work or burn your turf. Why not just buy stuff that is intended for turf and used by professionals for the same price and less work? That's my 2 cents on the jerry baker school of thought, but i'm sure others on here totally disagree.

Denverdude, I think you are missing my point about the dull blue/green color of the Bermuda plugs. I said the dull color are the plugs that are in FULL SUN where they are probably in full sun from 10am till 6pm. In that time the sand is pretty dry.

Contrast to that are my other Bermuda plugs that are in 80% shade, (they might get 1 hour tops of direct sun) they are lush and a vivid green. Same plugs and same treatment, so it;s not like a lack of iron or some micronutrient. It is heat/drought stress on those in full sun. Who was it here that said Bermuda thrives in full sun? It may be too early to tell but I am willing to bet by the performance I see so far the shaded plugs are totally kicking the a$$ of the plugs in full sun by color and vigor.

Contrast to that are my other Bermuda plugs that are in 80% shade, (they might get 1 hour tops of direct sun) If that is the case, they will die, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Who was it here that said Bermuda thrives in full sun?
It was anyone who knows anything about bermuda.

Sorry to be a smarta** but it's the truth.

pkape-

The reason your plugs in shade is still vivid green is because there's more moisture in that ground. The ones in a lot of sun is dying for water. You need to get water in there.

pkape-

The reason your plugs in shade is still vivid green is because there's more moisture in that ground. The ones in a lot of sun is dying for water. You need to get water in there.

Hence the problem of Florida sugar sand and the reason I am incorporating OM to the soil and today the plugs didn't look AS heat/drought stressed so perhaps the moisture manager is working?

Texas Weed, you do recall these Bermuda plugs are Celebration which has the best shade tolerance of any Bermuda hybrid.

Texas Weed, you do recall these Bermuda plugs are Celebration which has the best shade tolerance of any Bermuda hybrid.

Yes I do recall, however I don't think it means what you think it means. Celebration Bermuda can tolerate some light shade, not heavy shade, no Bermuda grass can tolerate heavy shade.

If your Celebration is in as heavy of a shade as you described (90% 1-hour of sun per day) It will die off, mark my words.

Texas-Weed it gets more than 1 hour of sun, just only 1 hour of direct sun. Heck I have potted hot pepper plants that are supposed to thrive in full sun, but in the summer these get put in mostly shade/indirect sun and do MUCH better. I am having a hunch the same will be true for the Celebration Bermuda.

Hows that Bermuda doing in the Shade? Isn't anything that is not direct sun=shade?

pkapeckopickldpepprz, Your funny. I love the way you try to rationalize the facts to support your position. Your Bermuda will die. Period. Not overnight but it will die or slowly creep back to nothing. That's just the facts. No wait maybe you have with all your expertise have discovered something we have failed to observe about Bermuda. I've been growing it for 50 years and TX Weed for about a hundred I think.

Well about 2 years after I planted the area mostly indirect light and shade it is doing better than any other full sun area I have planted the Celebration Bermuda. I have no explanation as to why this is other than it may get more water due to a few potted plants that may have a slight amount of water runoff to this area, but still this area is thriving and filled in nicely, all from plugs 2 years ago.

{{gwi:84573}}

Here is a picture of the full sun area and you can see spots of Bermuda but nothing like the other picture in the shady area. I used plugs in both areas but the shady area took off much better more consistently.

{{gwi:84574}}

Granted there are spots of weeds, but this is February and I guess with Bermuda, I'm lucky it's still green and not dormant at this point this time of year.

other than it may get more water due to a few potted plants that may have a slight amount of water runoff to this area

So what do you put in the water for the plants? Any liquid fertilizer?

I use a mild fertilizer every time I water the plants but I usually only water sparingly with little to no water running out the bottom. This shadier area does get more sun this time of year which is why I moved the potted plants there. Even still I only recently moved the pots there in October, but all last spring and summer before the pots were there, this area was thriving and I didn't fertilize this area any diffently than other areas of the lawn which got the Lesco 39-0-0 slow release nitrogen.

I want to mention the area isn't in full shade but only gets indirect sun with little to no full sun. It is nearest to the 6 foot tall fence on the west side of the property. In the morning it gets sun but afternoon shade, plus there are two large palm trees providing much afternoon shade.

Looking back I think I only used the Lesco 3-4 times all summer with coffee grounds and compost in between the Lesco applications.

pkapeckopickldpepprz:

Are you a model railroader? Where do you see any grass?

All I see is lichen - the stuff they use to make a model RR scene look like it has grass/weeds/bushes, in between some weeds, in this picture

{{gwi:84573}}

Gary that's not lichen that's Celebration Bermuda grass. The blue green color is the giveaway there. I do like model trains but I do not own any FWIW.

TW-

Any latest news over Tifgrand's supposedly "shade" tolerance? Since you're a big fan of other tif cultivar, it must be good enough. you got shady area where other bermuda is thinning out to do an experiment on Tifgrand?

Hello TW and all. I have posted this pick of my tifgreen bernuda lawn. I ha e since gone through and picked out all the weeds, and this was taken a few weeks ago in southern ca. Weather is starting to turn and the green is coming back. Its really sparse though and I am trying to find the best method to fill it back in. Specifics are greatly appreciated as this is my first lawn maintenance project. Thankyou all

As a first time home owner, I decided to trust that TW knew what he was talking about. I quickly saw that he did! The first season was needed to get the lawn healthy again. The second season I tried to take it to the next level with a trucut reel mower with a front roller.

Thanks again TW.

morabii, it looks like your bermuda is surrounded on 2 sides with either fence or building. Bemuda needs 6-8 hours of full sun per day to become dense.

Where are you in SoCal? Please be fairly specific as the hills cause conditions to change quickly. For example Pomona and West Covina are not far apart but there's a big hill between them that traps the sea breeze moisture to the west and causes adiabatic heating in Pomona.

If you are west of the 5 or 405, I would suggest fescue for you. If you are elsewhere, then St Augustine would work better in that spot.

Oh and TW does not post here anymore.

Hello dchall, thanks for the reply. I live in foothill ranch area, in the foothills of the saddleback mountains. Just east of lake forest in south orange county. There is my house on one side and a 6ft tall fence on the other side. It gets about 5 hrs of direct sunshine max. It was put in and did very well until it got trampled by some workers while it was raining for 2 days straight. Is there a way to maybe add seed with a top cover of soil and fertilizer to help new growth?

I might post here.

Moabel as Dave pointed out it appears the area just not get enough sun light. 5 hours is just not enough. Might I suggest you try Zoysia or Tif Grand might work.

However before you do that, give this a try. Take a yard rake and lightly loosen the soil, but not so much you do a lot of damage to what grass is left. You just want to loosen up the bare soil and lightly loosen the soil where their is grass.

Then apply a thin layer of compost and work it in a bit with a rake. Apply a good quality fertilizer like 10-10-10 or 20-20-20 (cheap) and water it in. Stay off the lawn and keep it watered. With luck and warmer weather, the Bermuda will wake up and turn on. Within a couple of weeks you should see it spreading and filling back in. If not plan B.

You are welcome Mr Watson.

texas_weed(7A)

I might post here.

The master returns!! Great to hear from you, TW. Hope all is well, and please hang around. There is a lot of bermuda interest this year.

Thanks TW. will give that a try. would adding some seed into the mix under the compost help at all?

NOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO! No, don't add seed. Tifgreen is a hybrid type of bermuda. Seed is a wild type of bermuda. If you mix them it will look weedy. You have bermuda. It will come back whether you like it or not. ...unless there's too much shade.

Thanks for the location. That helps. Do you get a seabreeze in the afternoon or are you hidden from that? I was in your area once looking for the motorcycle park (probably long overcome by development). I remember it was hot back in there considering how close to the beach you are.

And now comes bpgreen! It's a great week!!

I had TIF 419 Bermuda sod installed in late November. It is now late June and with growing season i have these long willowy weeds. I was afraid

to do pre-emergent and now whatever this is the coverage is now 15%. I am in Plano Texas. Should i do a weed control or high nitrogen to bolster the bermuda. I cut once a week but these weeds grow twice as fast so frustrating. Your help would be greatly appreciated! thanks so much!!!!!

ckalchthaler you should have opened a new topic, but it looks like you have an invasion of St Augustine. Do the new blade tips on the invader look rounded instead of pointed? It will wipe out your bermuda - as you can see it is doing a good job already.

If it is St Augustine you can kill it by stopping watering for a month. Bermuda goes dormant without water and will come back when you start to water again. St Augustine goes right to dead. Mow it very short to keep the St Aug from shading the bermuda. Also if you were going to spray Weed-b-Gon for other weeds, spray the St Aug, too. It does not like most weed killers.

No it is nut grass for sure. Picture not very representative trying to get too close.

leaves have a spine and triangular stem.I have St Augustine in the front where i have shade so familiar intimately with that. lol I cut my own lawn. I had tried St A in the back where this is and lost all of it to east facing full sun hence the TIF Bermuda new sod with three dogs I was wiping 108 paws a day in the rain.. So nutsedge it is. I also have some other random weeds that i want to spray but not kill new turf.

thanks! Sorry did not know how to do new topic but will be cognizant next time.

Any wisdom? I googled Nutgrass and if you pull it it multiplies-nice-not!

thanks!

Not to butt-in, but...Bonide Sedge ender. It kills nutsedge & members of the crab family, which I would bet green money on from your picture. That ain't nutsedge, but I'm sure you have plenty of that too in your new turf. A crab head that size should be pulled manually, followed by a spray of Sedge Ender to kill roots & prevent return, as it includes a dose of prodiamine in the spray for you. This is in every piece of Texas sod I've come across the last 2 years. I recommend this particular chemical because it handles both the most common Bermuda weeds. You are also in an area where dallisgrass was widely planted for cattle grazing, for future reference.

Edit:Upon closer inspection, there are a few nutsedge blades in there as well. Same product recommendation stands though, it'll take them both out. Get on a good preM program or they'll all be back shortly.

texas_weed, is there a way to contact you? I've got some questions and I'd like to pick your brain. I can't figure out how to direct message someone through this site. Thanks!

Bryan

Bryan, I'm not sure how much TW posts on here anymore. Any questions you have, I am sure there are plenty of people on here who can help. There are a lot of Bermuda enthusiasts on here with amazing lawns. Most of us have read and/or used the Bermuda bible. Let us know how we can help.

Thanks @sherm1082! So I've been in my house since August of 2013. It's a new house which the builder sodded with Tif419. I've been following the bermuda bible for the past 2 years. I have a TruCut Reel mower that I cut the grass at about 1" religiously every 2-3 days (3 days max). So this year I decided to sand my lawn to remove a lot of dips and valleys in the lawn (which as we all know are exacerbated when your grass is only 1" tall). I used SuperSod's leveling mix which is 30% compost, 70% sand. Its really great stuff. I put this down last weekend (Memorial Day weekend). Anyways, now my bermuda seems to be sending up seed heads. They are tiny and white but really take away from the appearance of the lawn. I understand that means the grass is stressed in some way. I watered the leveling mix in and we've gotten some rain since then but I forget exactly how much. Any ideas? I'm thinking of getting a soil test as I have not done that yet on this lawn. Thanks for any help and guidance you can provide!

Note: My last fertilization was early May with 34-0-0 slow release (1lb per/k).

I live in texas . I just have my bermuda sod installed. I would like to know when I should fertilize my sod and what type of fertilizer I should use. Thanks for helping me.

Just quoting from TW's 2009 reply...

I have been very consistent in my advice on Bermuda lawn care. For the first application I always recommend a 3-1-2 or 4-1-2 (15-5-10, 20-15-10) ratio fertilizer, followed up by straight nitrogen (39-0-0) for the rest of the season.

You can apply the first one now and the second one every month thereafter during the growing season.

If you have other questions about your lawn, please start a new topic. When you do, tell us where you live. "Texas" is too big and covers too many climates and soil types.