>"yard for the dogs which means grass that will stand up to my dogs running around"

>"Normally do not water, have never fertilized"

>"a bit of shade"

>"southern Ontario"

>"do this in the least costly way as possible"

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Grass? that's an "impossible dream" - aint going to happen.

You may have to look into something "forage" from your local farm bureau agency. Millet comes to mind ... but Ontario might be too cool for millet.

Hey now Gary, let's not be too negative. Sod is probably not going to work out for you since it can be pricey, but not sure what units you are using when you say 20X30, feet or meters? If it's feet, then that's not too big, and the cost might be less than you think, especially if you do the labor of laying it. You need to call some sod farms to get a ballpark price, that's your job. If you decide to seed, then the dogs are going to have to stay off the area for at least 6 weeks, 8 would be better. Maybe split the yard with a temporary fence and do half now, the other half in late summer. Ideally the seed bed should be free of weeds, and graded. You can do this yourself, to a degree, but a professional with a box blade is going to do a much better job (this would also be the case if you sod). For seed, I would either go with a Kentucky bluegrass blend that uses traffic tolerant cultivars that do well in your area i.e. ones with longer growing seasons like Rush, Four Seasons, etc. The other option would be to use Poa Supina. This is a European grass found in the Alps that has a long growing season, spreads aggressively, tolerates shade, does very well in traffic, and in some instances does better if there is traffic. The seed is pricey (35 bucks a pound), and you will need 2-3 lbs per 1000 square feet. Which ever grass you choose, you will have to water in extended periods of no rain, and you will have to fertilize.

I would put 2+ inches of mulch where the dogs run. You can't put in new grass and expect them to stop playing. They will love the mulch. If they dig in it, you just kick it back into the hole with your foot. You'd have to add more next year. Sure beats mud.

Thanks folks, I am going to have grass in my yard and your suggestions are appreciated. My numbers were in feet, not meters. And I should have said in the past I have not fertilized or watered (except when pumping water out of the pond or when I clenaed the pond filters) . I will of course have to when I redo the lawn. This all started because the lawn was water logged from too much rain, and haveing the dogs out there.... Wish there was a place that I could let them run free other then my yard but thats not an option. So the plan make a mulch path from the house to the back area that is still green and along the area that the dogs chase one and other, fence off each section grade and sod or seed depending on cost. I will be looking for your seed sugestions. Then keep the dogs off for 2 months. Water often at least one inch at a time, I think watering just after dawn is best??? Then when I get grass back fertilize fall and early spring to keep it healthy. And keep the dogs out of the yard when water logged. So thanks! It is such a help to be able to get good realistic advice. When you go to business or store, with your information I somtimes find they just steer you in the direction of what they want to sell you wheather it is right or not,or when you are trying to do things cheaply they don't want to help at all. So thanks again.

Water often??? No. Water infrequently, not frequently. Assuming you have a lawn, you should water once a month in the cool months and work your way up to every 7 days in the hottest heat of summer. The 1-inch rule is a starting point. In a normal summer I water 3/8 inch once a week. That is all my lawn needs. When the heat really kicks in, I go to 5/8 inch. If the heat is prolonged, like our last drought, I will up it to 7/8 inch per week until the heat breaks back to normal.

Hmm, when I said often I ment when getting the sod or seed established. Once a week or more often depending on how fast the soil dries out. For the 6 weeks I am keeping the dogs and me off this area. But now less then the inch. Am I wrong in thinking this? Then cut back to when needed between rains. thanks.