>Do they actually have two different types of trees? For example, a red delicious
>apple orchard with yellow delicious apples scattered around. It just doesn't >seem right.

Yes, they have different kinds of trees. The pick your own orchard I go to actually has crabapple trees scattered throughout the orchard just for pollination. I'm not getting what doesn't seem "right" about it?

>But what if you say took two seeds from one honeycrisp apple and planted
>them. Once they grow they will still be the same cultivar as the apple in
>which they came,

They are not the same cultivar. Each of them would be a new cultivar.

>but they are genetically different. They are not the same exactly. Will these
>be able to pollinate each other since they are not exactly the same?

Probably, but not all apple cultivars can be pollinated by all other apple cultivars. I don't know if it's just a timing issue (ie, if they don't flower at the same time) or something else, but the fruit catalogs frequently include a pollination chart, showing which apples can be pollinated by which. Like the chart here:
http://www.fruit-tree.com/applepollen.html

>Say you have a honey crisp apple tree. You take some two pieces of it and
>graft them on to two rootstocks. They grow and get large to the point of
>fruiting capability. Now these will not be able to pollinate each other, right?
>Becuase they ARE the same exact tree. Am I getting this?

That is correct.

Alex

"You need two different types of apple trees in order to pollinate, correct? "
Yup, you have to have two different genotypes in order for pollination to occur. Not just two trees.

"If this is the case, then how do big time fruit orchards that sell fruit to our grocery stores work? Do they actually have two different types of trees? For example, a red delicious apple orchard with yellow delicious apples scattered around. It just doesn't seem right."
Large commercial orchards that have large blocks of the same cultivar use crabapples as pollinators. They generally have a long bloom period, so they make good pollinators. However, smaller orchardists can get away with not having to plant crabapple pollinators through effective orchard design....if they only have a couple of rows of many different cultivars, they can simply plant their orchard in "order" of bloom time.

"But what if you say took two seeds from one honeycrisp apple and planted them. Once they grow they will still be the same cultivar as the apple in which they came, but they are genetically different. They are not the same exactly. Will these be able to pollinate each other since they are not exactly the same?"
If you planted two seeds from a Honeycrisp apple, they will be different, just like any siblings (think human kids here) are different. In fact, if they were genotypes in a breeding program, they'd be referred to as "full sibs." And just to correct something Alex said, they aren't cultivars unless they are released as a cultivar. Until then, they'd just be genotypes. :) The two trees would probably be able to pollinate each other, but I'm not positive on how apple self-incompatability works (ie, how many genes are involved and such).

"Say you have a honey crisp apple tree. You take some two pieces of it and graft them on to two rootstocks. They grow and get large to the point of fruiting capability. Now these will not be able to pollinate each other, right? Becuase they ARE the same exact tree. Am I getting this?"
That's right. Two apples that are the same cultivar, will never be able to pollinate each other.

Why doesn't it seem right? Haven't you ever heard of diversification?
With crops diversification protects you from total crop loss and extends your income period.

Thanks for clearing that up people. When i said it didn't seem right, i just thought it seemed unorganized. Thats all.

And...
Can anyone else clarrify whether the seedlings would be different cultivars or genotypes?

thanks

The seedlings would be different genotypes. Cultivar=cultivated variety. They won't "become" known as cultivars unless they are given a name and sold on the market.

So, not all genotypes become cultivars, but each cultivar is a separate genotype.

alright thanks, makes sense.

I think it might also help clarify the issue to point out that all trees of a particular cultivar are actually part of the same tree, genetically. It takes two individuals (genotypes) to cross pollinate. Two seedlings are indeed two genotypes (individuals).

I disagree with most here. The best pollinator for apple trees are BEES, not the cultivar or Genotypes to cross pollinate. Orchards are set up with hundreds of the same trees & rootstocks. They hire colonies of bees to do the job if necessary.

Taking seeds from grocery apples are not good choices because they're grown in different zones. Organics are usually grown in South or Central America. before attempting to plant seeds.

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Anything !

GPmaniac, you seem aptly named. Pollinators are useless without the pollen so the correct pollen and pollinators are equally essential.

The questioner was only asking about the the requirement of another variety for succesful pollination. All the info I read above was not only correct but articulately stated. If the questioner had asked about the necessity of pollinators I imagine the respondents would have answered that much different question correctly also.

" I disagree with most here. The best pollinator for apple trees are BEES, not the cultivar or Genotypes to cross pollinate"

What????
You are confused to the extreme. Bees carry the pollen they don't create it.

Some apples will pollinate with themselves. Most will not. You need to have pollen from A pollinate B. There is also a type of apple pollen that won't pollinate anything, C needs A or B, A and B need each other but not C.
That is the reason you won't have good odds planting apple seeds. Within an apple you could have seeds crossed with just about any other apple OR crabapple within range of the bees and other pollinating insects. Bees travel a lot farther than most people realize. The further they have to travel the less likely they will find the proper flower. So while you may see some pollination from a wild crabapple a mile away it likely won't be heavy.

This is very well proven by growing apples in enclosed spaces like greenhouses and indoors in pots.

Zones and "Organics" has nothing to do with this.

Indeed, Harvestman. Call me what you will. The question was this: "You need two different types of apple trees in order to pollinate, correct?" . Answer: Let the bees worry about that. They travel up to 3 miles to gather pollens, all kinds. Chances are very good that in those 3 miles there is a different type of apple tree in the vicinity.

"Will these be able to pollinate each other since they are not exactly the same?". Answer: Bees will take care of that.

"Now these will not be able to pollinate each other, right?". How would anyone know unless these genetically same trees where isolated from bees and any other form of pollination ?

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Anything !

Myk1,

"You are confused to the extreme. Bees carry the pollen they don't create it".

Do you have any bees ? Who's confused here is not me. Bees carry many different type of pollens, true. When they land on a specific flower, this case apple blossoms, some of the pollen gets knocked off onto the stigma (ovary). The ovary is selective in collecting the correct type of pollen for its purposes if present. Without these selective properties, we'd have a bunch of mutated fruits on the trees.

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Anything !

greenpowermaniac:
Yes, bees or other pollinators are essential in pollinating apples and many, many, many other species. The simple fact is that commercial orchards that are planed in large blocks of the same cultivar use crabapples as pollinators. It's true that they bring in bees to move the pollen around. Basically, you must have bees and you must have "different" pollen in order to get fruit. And while bees can and do travel great distances, the chances of cross pollination occuring are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH greater if you've got pollinators close by.

And you're wrong about having "mutated" fruit without the selective properties. There wouldn't be ANY fruit.

It's semantics, but words do have meaning, and 'pollenate/pollenator' are very frequently misused in the catalogs - as well as here on this forum.

gpm is correct - in the case of apples, etc., bees and other insects are the pollenators; the fruit varieties themselves need to be selected with their capability to act as pollenizers.
So...Golden Delicious can serve as a pollenizer for, say, Red Delicious - but you've got to have a pollenator(bee, etc.) to accomplish the job.
Apples that are considered to be self-fertile are actually self-pollenizing, not self-pollenating - something still has to accomplish the act of moving the pollen from the stamens to the pistil.

Green Power,

You're swimming upstream against a wealth of experience and research. I've never read any research that would recommend relying on a pollen source miles away for apples.

While sometimes a dissenting approach is helpful (no has to travel in "lock step" here) such approach should be born out of experience or solid research. The advice you've been giving so far here, demonstrates you're fairly new at intensive fruit growing, as well as beekeeping, which is OK, no one has to be an "expert" before contributing. But be advised, there are many on this forum who are very very serious about this "hobby". As such, they are very well read, and/or extremely experienced.

Would suggest reading some research before criticizing my experiences.

Open your minds to new possibilities.

Do you have any research to back your statements up? People are trying to be nice , I sense that is wearing thin.

Numbers of fruits per tree were determined in a solid block of Granny Smith apple trees into which shoots of the pollen donor Abas had been placed at flowering time. Fruit numbers declined rapidly from 46 per tree nearest the donor to a background level of 0-2 fruits 12 m distant. This distance was taken as the limit of cross-pollination. Apart from a significant spread of setting with the prevailing wind, fruit numbers were related to distance from the pollen donor. This relationship was described by an equation involving the limited work-range of an individual bee (12m), the dilution of donor pollen with increasing distance from the source (0.67m-1) and a scaling factor determining the general level of setting. It was assumed that donor pollen density was so low that multiple pollination could be ignored. Seed counts per fruit averaged 1.4 on windfalls, 2.3 on a random sample of picked fruit, and 5.2 on trees nearest the pollen donors. Fruits from heavily cropping orchards nearby with established pollen donors averaged between four and six seeds per fruit.

Here is a link that might be useful: research

How about you post some links to reliable sources that support what you're saying?

I'm providing one from University of Missouri Extension.

Here is a link that might be useful: fruit pollination

I think you guys are being very generous. I guess that's a good thing, but where do you get your patience? I don't mind someone making mistakes but as an arrogant person myself, I really think you should at least earn your arrogance just a little bit with real knowledge and experience before exerting extreme attitude.

Anyone with any knowledge of commercial fruit growing knows how much trouble these growers go to to assure adequate pollination. If adequate pollination could occur with a 2 mile distant "pollenizer" (that semantic summersault, where gpmaniac was granted some validation, was pretty generous as well) every text book I've every read about commercial fruit growing is wrong as well as every grower I've ever met.

This is something that has been very closely studied because it is of great economic importance. These orchards are not selling crabapples and yet many devote space to them. Not one every 2 miles, of course. It would also be far more efficient to grow single blocks of apple varieties,instead of alternating rows with compatible varieties, if it was productive. Picking crews could work more efficiently, for one thing.

How close a pollenizer must be depends on the variety, Red Delicious (gag) has to have one extremely close while Yellow Delicious, which is partially self-fertile, can be seperated by several rows from a compatable pollenizer. 2 miles is almost 2 miles to far for most any commercial variety.

"You need two different types of apple trees in order to pollinate, correct?"

The poster wasnt talking to you. They were talking to a bee.

Egocentric =)

Sub

Well that was interesting..
Thanks

Yeah, for me too. I actually wasn't aware of the definitions of pollenizor and pollinator. I feel bad that I was excessively hard on gpmaniac though. Rereading his posts I see he wasn't as obnoxiously aggressive in asserting his ignorance as I first took him. There's no crime in being a little nutty (or I'd be in jail).