I can see that you've tried or are considering multiple somewhat-expensive solutions, but you're all over the board. Here's a relatively inexpensive recommendation: get a good (including micronutrients) soil test from UMASS through your coopertive extension service. It will cost you about $12 if I remember UMASS's charge. Then post it and ask for recommendations, and attack the problems from worst to smallest as the budget will allow. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is one "special" solution that is going to fix everything that is in a bag that you can spread in an hour and be done. Despite all the marketing claims, it doesn't exist.

Dandelions are typically among the easiest weeds to control. If multiple treatments can't kill them, I suspect that you're not applying the WBG correctly - check your mixtures and application rates again.

The pattern of failure and the pictures make me also question your watering practices. How often do you water and for how long do you water each area?

Good advice from Andy.

Most likely you have a Kentucky Bluegrass lawn?

If you do, based on your pictures and in absence of a soil test, get some Starter Fertilizer from your local John Deere/Lesco Dealer, like 18-24-12, Weed-B-Gon with the garden hose atachment, cut your lawn no higher than 2" (measure from the tip of the blade down in the ground; more difficult - or measure right after cutting the grass with a measuring tape)

If indeed you have a Bluegrass lawn, you don't have to spread more seed, the grass will spread to fill in bare spots on its own.

BTW, you don't have crabgrass right now, it hasn't germinated yet. You're probably looking at tall fescue.

This is what crabgrass looks like: (click on the link below)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:91717}}

Lynne:

Andy and Auteck have been diplomatic, I'll be blunt (it's just my nature - sorry)

Your pictures are dated 4/24/09 and you still have last fall's leaves just laying around!
Spring has arrived, by the looks of your grass, and you've yet to mow! Your grass is VERY tall and flopping over.
9 days after being concerned of the overall condition and taking pictures, you first ask for help?

Are you and your husband up for the actual labor or do you expect the lawn fairy to come and do it? (I warned ya - I'm blunt!)

Your property is _NOT_ hopeless and has a lot of promise! It really isn't as bad as you currently think, but it will take effort.
More effort than expense, but you will have to commit to the labor if you DIY.

Hi - thanks for the responses. I re-read my post, and for the life of me, I don't know how I gave the impression that I was looking for a "solution in a bag" or that I didn't want to work at it. I know I said that we aren't "lawn" people - what I meant by that is that we are not into having a perfect lawn - we are ok with a % of weeds, we let our lawn go dormant in the summer, we aren't mowing fanatics. Is that what made you think we are looking for a quick fix?

Anyway, I have a soil test kit - I'll try it. I'm sure our soil s*cks, but I don't know if it's high ph, low, not enough nitrogen, etc. Would that make a huge difference in growing grass (I'm planning on using a starter fertilizer.)

Andy, I rechecked the WBG bottle, and I applied the stuff as directed. It's premixed - I've gone through the whole 1.33 gallons of it, and I still have dandelions. Yesterday, I resprayed a whole area on my side yard. A few hours later, I picked every dandelion flower because now I know that I can't trust the WBG to kill them, and they could seed. This morning, I went out - every plant had new flowers. They didn't even look wilted this time. I took some pictures - I'll upload to shutterfly and send the link. The stuff doesn't work. I have hundreds of dandelions - hundreds, I am not exaggerating. Pulling them up is not an option. It would be great if some weed killer worked.

Regarding watering practices - well, this year so far it's been up to mother nature. When we put the grass in, I had a bunch of hoses and and sprinklers and I would water in the morning and the evening each day. If we overseed, I think we need to hook up the sprinklers again.

Autek - I don't know what kind of grass I have - contracter seed - maybe there's some bluegrass in it. Heinze 57 is more like it. Also, I do have crab grass - it looks just like the picture you attached.

Gary, I don't take offense at the blutness. Yes, we still had leaves. DH has blown them about 12 times since last fall, but they blow back on our lawn. DH mowed the lawn two days after those pictures were taken - but lots of people in our area have not mowed for the first time. I was actually thinking it was early because MOST of our grass was still so short and bare in places. But, I asked him to do it so that I could rake up the earth below the grass and add the seed - which we still haven't done.

The reason I am asking for help now - not really 9 days after becoming concerned - I really only became concerned yesterday - is because DH and I cannot agree what to do next - we had a plan (overseed, hope for the best), but now I don't think that will be too sucessful, so I wanted to hear some opinions on the best course of action for the seeding. So, thanks for the feedback.

The reason I was recommending the UMASS soil test is that large quantities of dandelions that are very tough to beat is the number 1 sign of a bad Calcium/Magnesium ratio. If the soil is deficient in Calcium (or the amount if Magnesium is too high) then dandelions become the "king of the hill" for the lawn. There is an entire book on the subject called "Weeds and Why They Grow". Dandelions are specialist plants that are capable of carrying Calcium from deep in the soil to the surface. I succeeded in getting the ratio to 8:1, and I have absolutely NO dandelions this year. None. And I didn't use a broadleaf weed killer to do it. I'll have to spot-treat some Wild Violets - but that's a different story.

I didn't mean to accuse you of trying to find the "solution in a bag" - I meant don't fall into the trap of falling for the marketing that is all of the TV right now. I'm trying to recommend a methodical solution to avoid spending lots on products that won't help.

I think you mostly just have the timing wrong with some of your practices. Seeding in spring isn't a good use of time/money. You'll have to water it daily to get the seed to grow. That encourages lots of weeds to grow as well. Then, in the summer, the young grass will die rather than go dormant if you don't water it. Overall, you do a lot of work and get poor results.

As a long term plan, I would suggest seeding in fall. You won't have all the weed problems then and the grass can get a good head start before facing its first summer.

In the shortrun, you can overseed now and just work on the weed problem this year. You won't get it completely under control because weeds grow in bare spots no matter what you do. To get the bulk of the problem fixed, make sure you mow at least once a week (preferably twice in spring) and water no more than once a week (as long as you aren't starting seeds). Then, get yourself a Weedhound. It is a little step tool that just pops dandelions and similar weeds right out of the ground with just a step. If you just do that for 5 minutes a day when you get home from work, you'll knock out the problem in short order. you can easily do 5 per minute = 25 per day = 700+ per month.

Billl,

Where can you buy this Weedhound tool?

Thank you

I got a weedhound at Home Depot. I think they're available at most of the big box stores.

lovlilynne, I'm going to say it again, you DO NOT have crabgrass. It is impossible for you to have grabgrass in MA this time of year. It hasn't germinated here in Raleigh, NC yet; we're about 600 miles south from MA and about 1 or possibly 2 zones warmer than you. You are probably looking at Wheat Straw which is what Contractors use when seeding in the Fall to protect the new seeds from getting too dry and from rain runoff and birds, too.

You're spending more time writing and reading messages on this forum than your are working on your lawn. Here's what you need to do:

1.- Mow the grass down to 2 inches and keep it that height for the next 4 weeks.
2.- Put starter fertilizer down in liu of a soil test
3.- Apply Weed-B-Gon (you can buy Bayer or Total Kill; your choice) with the hose-end sprayer so you get the right rate (read the label)
4.- Find your local John Deere/Lesco dealer and get a bag of 0-0-7 Dimension to prevent Crabgrass from germinating.
5.- Water the fertilizer to about half inch or so.

Dandelions are sometimes a sign of Low level soil PH, have you checked your soil PH? You can go to HomeDepot or Lowe's and get a kit to test the soil PH and do it yourself.

That's all, I hope you follow our advice and post again in the near future the good results.

Good day.

Auteck

Curious about the mowing height recommendation - why 2 inches? I know the lawn is thin, but would the lower cutting height affect the fertilizer application? Or are you hoping that by cutting the tips of the weeds, the herbicide will be more effective?

Lynne - Weed-b-gone may take several days to work. If you used the whole 1.5 gallons - give your lawn (and the environment) a rest for a week or so and see what the effects are.

Autek - wow, I wasn't even going to reply because you've gone from blunt to rude, but I just have to say:
1. YES I DO have CRABGRASS (see pictures)
2. I don't work on my lawn at 10 PM at night, and I've only been looking at this thread.
3. You obviously don't know what you are talking about (reference #1)
Now I'll just ignore you.

Andy, thanks for the clarification. I have the Umass instructions up and will be sending in my soil sample this weekend. It could be my soil, or it could be that my daughters, 7 and 3, blew about a million seeds last year.

Bill - thanks for the advice - that is what I need to hear. We did overseed and water last fall, trying to do just what you said. I had some luck, but not enough I guess.

Gags, good to know - I'll try to be patient. In the meantime, I'm picking the flowers by hand. What do they say, for every DL that goes to seed, it's 25 more plants?

Here are my pictures - there are the original pictures and some of the dandelions that came back the next day, and today I took pictures of my crabgrass. See the captions - they might answer questions.

Thanks again.

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8AbM2rZm0ZMml6

Here is a link that might be useful: 2009 Lawn Pictures

lovlilynne,

I wasn't going to reply either, but giving the nature of this forum and the need to clarify, I'm going to.

First, I did not mean offend you with my comments, but to simply give you the best advice for your situation. If I offended you, then I apologize. I can asure you that was not the intention. In fact, I didn't think you were going to get offended at all.

Second, you don't have Crabgrass. It might look like it, but I can asure you that it is NOT. Not in a million years. I've been around turfgrass too long to know, so trust me when I tell you that you don't have crabgrass. What you have is most likely Wheat Straw grass. It is pretty common when overseeding in the fall. Homeowers and contractors use it because it's cheap and gets the job done. The problem shows up later on. Anyway, no worries, wheat straw will die on its own due to constant mowing, summer heat, and casual drought. It has little to no tolerance for neither of those 3 issues I just mentioned.

Anyway, keep us posted on the progress of your lawn.

Regards,

Auteck

I always thought the way Weed B Gone worked is it made the plant grow excessively fast and the root could not keep up with the growth and eventually die. When I use Weed B Gone, the plants shoot up and the blooms turn to seed pods and the seeds replant the area. Youve just multiplied the crop and guess what? You need to purchase more Weed B Gone. Nice for business. Am I off on this?

lovlilynne - I checked the picks, and that isn't crabgrass. Many people refer to all grassy weeds as crabgrass, but each has their own name and growth patterns. You certainly have a grassy weed there, but it isn't crabgrass. Auteck is right. It is too early for crabgrass in your area.

A significant number of grassy weeds are annuals and will go away on their own as long as you keep them mowed and make sure they don't reseed. If you need an immediate fix, the fastest way is to just pull them (a weedhound works for most of them too.)

Bill - thanks for your response. Since posting to this forum and having my assumption that I had crabgrass challenged, I have done a lot of research.

Aside from all the friends and relatives that I've asked about my pictures or the actual plant (100% responded: Crabgrass) because that is not scientific, I found that crabgrass will germinate in soil temps that have been above 55 degrees for 24-48 hours.

I found that the UMass Extension of Landscape Nursery and Urban Forestry tracks soil temps in our state. I would fall in the East or Metro West region, and lo and behold - soil temps above 55 degrees now for several weeks.

So, being that it is possible that I have crabgrass, and being that this is the very same weed that grows and grows in my lawn, filling every nook and cranny by July, and that every person I have asked to identify it - either by photo or in person - has said crabgrass, I am going with crabgrass!

Why do I care? Well - obviously treatment is different for each type of weed. As you mention, if this is just a grassy weed that "will go away on it's own" then I don't have to do anything, right? Well, basically, aside from a spring pre-emergent, that is what I have been doing for the last 10 years or so, and this stuff IS my lawn by July. I'm not pulling them out. I have a full time job and 3 kids, I don't have time, nor do I want to spend my time pulling weeds - maybe when they are less numerous - if they ever are.

Here are some links where I saw the reference to soil temps:
http://kentcoopextension.blogspot.com/2009/02/turf-crabgrass-germination-and.html
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7456.html
http://www.greenviewfertilizer.com/articles/crabgrass-myths/
(see myth #3)

MSMA is very effective sprayed on crabgrass.

Gary, she does not have crabgrass, you know that. Crabgrass just germinated here in Raleigh in the past few days, they're still inmature and not fully grown like in the pictures.

There's an old saying, there's no worst blind that the one that does NOT want to see.

She's a lost cause. She comes here for advice, but has yet to follow any of it.

She has crabgrass and I just came back from the moon last night...

I normally lurk, but had to check in here.

First, while crabgrass may just be showing up in Raleigh, but here in CT where I am and Ma where lovlilynne is, we had a week of extremely warm weather in the high 80's near 90's a day or two, and yes, crabgrass did germinate. I have some in my lawn that I have picked. We have cold weather that moved in since, but we did have enough for crabgrass to get moving.

Second, the pics you've posted to shutterfly do NOT reflect crabgrass lovlilynne. It does appear to be some sort of plantain or something.

To get an accurate diagnosis of your exact weed, I would highly suggest pulling a plant and bringing it to your local county extension office for identification.

After pulling thousands of crabgrass plants over the 11 years we've owned our home, no, that is not crabgrass.

If you want to spot treat your weeds, try Bayers All in One Weed control. Follow the directions to a tea. You'll continue to have weed issues until you get a soil test, amend your soil and get it ready for a nice, lush lawn.

Hi - thanks for all the help and advice. I came on here for answers to 2 questions: 1) Any suggestions for something that works on dandelions; 2) Should we slice seed or overseed and hope it works or do one section at a time - possibly adding loam where needed.

I ended up getting a whole lot more advice. I am awaiting results of soil test. I don't even know where my "local county extension office" is - I took a few of my crabgrass plants to the Agway were I was purchasing my weed control stuff and fertilizer (and returning my empty WBG container for a full refund since it didn't work), and they confirmed that it is crabgrass. I then stopped at two other lawn and garden places that are along the way, and they agreed that the plants I had were crabgrass. I thought about getting signed affadavits from them that I could scan and upload for you, but I figured you still wouldn't believe me, so what's the point?

Sandra, I know that the pictures are hard to see with the grass in and around the crabgrass, but I really don't see the difference from the pictures that autek posted:

{{gwi:91720}}
and mine:
{{gwi:91722}}
Except for the size of the plant.

As far as getting the grass to fill in and grow - I haven't done anything yet - probably losing some good spring growing time, but I got so confused by all the advice and options, I'm just in analysis paralysis. I had some loam delivered because we need it to fill in holes where my DH had dug out big rocks from the lawn, and I figure I'll spread some of it in the worst areas and try to get some grass to grow there. In the other areas, green stuff has filled in - about 40-50% of it's weeds, but oh well, it's green.

This is my last update. I appreciate your advice, but I'm going to stick with my local resources for advice from here on out as they seem to know the turf (pun intended) better. :-)

So sorry Lovlilynne, that IS crabgrass which you do know by now. I thought you were trying to identify the fat leafed, lighter colored weed that seems to be prevalent in your lawn and is shown in your pics #57 - #60 with a closeup in #60. The pic you have above here is in fact crabgrass, which yes, you know. I do think many here also thought you were trying to identify that same weed I was looking at which is not crabgrass.

As to your original questions, Bayer has a blue bottled weed product sold at Lowes adn Walmart which works well on lots of weeds. I have always found the Bayer products to work better than Weed b Gone, for me at least. I don't use them often, I tend to spot treat if and when I do, sicne I lean mostly to organics but will pull in a chemical control if I need to.

A great tool to use against weeds is the weed hound, found at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. You can pull up both the crabgrass and dandelions. It's more time consuming, but does work. When my husband uses it, he pulls a weed, drops some seed in the hole that is left.

You are on the right track with a soil test. Once you get those results, you'll know what you are working with and what you need to amend. A top dressing of compost would, in my opinion, be a good thing regardless, but once you get those results, they should have suggestions on what your soil needs. I use a UCONN testing center here and they provide both organic and non-organic recommendations with their test results. Personally, I would work on amending your soil and then slit-seeding in the fall. It will mean battling the weeds for a few months. Otherwise, you can try to seed although you'd be battling heat on your seedlings during August which may make things a bit difficult depending on the size of your lot. If you have a manageable lot and the ability to water less frequently, but deeply when you do, you may be able to make it through the summer just fine. I am not sure where in Mass. you are. With our current temps, if you acted very quickly, got amendments in and seeded, you may be fine as well. Most recommend fall seeding, but in our climate we can actually seed in the spring if it is timed properly. Right now, I'd say you are past prime time, but it may be doable if you gave the lawn lots of attention this year, really baby it. You'll also want to grow your lawn high, mow high, keep the lawn long, 3.5 - 4 inches, and you'll end up with a healthy lawn.

Good luck!!

I had a great time at the moon last week... I can't wait to go back...

Speaking of baptism by fire...I hope the rest of your experiences with GW are better than this one. Y'all got off track early and it went downhill from there.

You can have a weed free, low maintenance lawn, and do it without routine use of Weed-B-Gone. It is a matter of 1) growing grass that is suited to the location, 2) proper watering, 3) proper mowing, and 4) regular fertilizer. You are trying to hit todays issues but you have the recent memory of last year's issues weighing you down. I'm going to focus on this year's issues.

The current symptom seems to be that your grass is too thin and it is allowing a variety of weeds to come and take over. Can you find the bag of seed you bought and tell us what the Guaranteed Analysis part of the bag says? I'm hoping that will explain the entire block of problems so far this year. I'm also hoping it will suggest a solution to be implemented in the fall. Fall is by far the best time to seed in the north. If you seed in the spring (early or late) there are weed seeds sitting there waiting to germinate. When you put in grass seed, all the weed seeds will germinate, too. You can prevent the summer weed seeds from germinating by seeding in the fall. Then in the spring you will be using a mature turf care program. That involves keeping the soil relatively dry and providing a tall grass to shade the soil. Keeping weed seeds dry in the spring can be hard with Mother Nature helping to water, but if you gain some sort of control over the moisture, then you should water deeply once every 1-2 weeks. Get out the hoses and sprinkler (I like an oscillating sprinkler). Keeping the grass tall seems to be your nature so that's good; however, when you do mow, mow at the highest setting on the mower. Auteck has not explained why he suggested mowing at 2 inches, but over the years the general consensus here at GW is that really tall grass is much better than anything else. Four inches works better for keeping weeds out and reducing your summer watering requirements. In the summer when the heat really hits, you can go without mowing for a month or two, but you should still water every week or two.

The second problem with seeding in the spring is the new grass plants cannot tolerate the summer heat. Could that be why your lawn died last summer? Fall seeded grass has all winter and spring to develop deeper roots that can stand the heat and low moisture.

Regardless of what the weeds are, you have some and need to get rid of them. The reason you have any weeds at all is your turf is not very dense. I am questioning auteck's idea that you have Kentucky bluegrass, because you should not have that thin a turf with KBG - unless that was what you seeded with this year (need the Guaranteed Analysis). The "dandelion" weed should die with WBG, but since it has not, I'm going to suggest that you fertilize right now, and then in 2 weeks, try the WBG again. Weeds that are not very healthy will not absorb the WBG and can even resist it. I know it seems crazy to fertilize the weeds so you can kill them, but that is exactly what I'm suggesting. Again, this is the consensus of Internet forum users over the ages. If you don't have a favorite fertilizer, look for a fertilizer like plain old Turf Builder that does not have any other additives like herbicide or insecticide - just fertilizer. If you are interested in an inexpensive organic lawn care program, here's a link to one.

Also, it looks like you live in the woods. Does your lawn get much sunlight during the day in the summer? It must get enough for "crabgrass" to grow. True crabgrass needs full sun or it won't do well. Whatever your weed is, it acts exactly like crabgrass and looks much the same. I'm okay calling it crabgrass. I've been reading here for years and it always surprises me how early crabgrass appears in various parts of the country. My approach would be to discourage it with proper watering and mowing and to tolerate it (meaning no herbicides) one more season with anticipation and the hope of getting such a dense lawn next year that it will not come back. Yes, it can be done.

For the fall, would you consider hiring a landscaper to resurface your entire lawn? In one morning he could fix the spots where the trees were, give you the best drainage possible, and prepare the soil for new seed. It would be a complete renovation which is why I don't suggest you spend a lot of money killing weeds this season. However, I'm not saying you should abdicate lawn care either. Treat the lawn as if it was the perfect lawn (despite the weeds) and it will surprise you.

I should say that since you are not lawn people (yet, and I'm optimistic you will be), I have some doubt about the quality of the grass seed you have already purchased. It is very easy to buy a bag full of weed seeds when you are not experienced at reading the bags. It would be a shame to renovate and get the same problems back.

2,4-D was and is the safest and most effect tool for broadleaf weed control. But a bunch of libs with high pitched voices injected THEIR lifestyles on us by forcing the government to make it look like they were doing something for you. Contact the government and ban banning. Banning is outlawing legal products tested by Health Canada and Killex has been around since 1948 but these environMENTALists have no problem lying and fear mongering like the neocons they hate in their quest for brotherly love.