Just talked to a bud who used to work on a farm and said they grew sweet corn and hand picked it, so.

Any info would be good.

The ratio of space per worker depends on the size and sophistication of the machinery, I suppose. 3 workers could be occupied by 1 or 2 acres with hand tools or hundreds or thousands of acres with the most expensive equipment available.

I wish you the best of luck and certainly agree on the soil sample(s), if you don't already know how to take a proper soil sample already, learn how before you take any or your sample(s) will be worthless at best if not misleading. Next, learn as much as you can about your soil in addition to the soil test like ho deep the topsoil is, the nature of the subsoil, whether or not you have low spots that like to flood, if there are big differences in the soil and any way from one part of your ground to another, etc..

Keep your variables down while trying to figure out what works or you'll never figure out what worked. I.E. If you planted a field with tomatoes and wanted to know how much manure to apply to it, don't use 3 different manure sources and 3 different varieties or a field of peppers with one manure rate and 3 different irrigation systems (drip, furrow and sprinkler.

Start simple and don't plant the whole darned acerage to veggies, remember for disease and weed prevention it is a very good strategy to rotate cropped fields with fallowed ones. Fallow is best done with cover crops in my opinion, you'll want to experiment with those crops also, Spring and Summer.

Do research (reading) till your eyeballs fall out of your head!

Be observant at all times in the field, I know it sounds obvious but it is worth remembering.

Keep good records of what you do and the results of what you did(nt).

Revel in your success and learn from your failures.

The things that come to mind for me are questions. Like ..Is the farm in a farming area? Has it produced good crops in the past? Is it hilly, wet, sandy, or fairly level?

Without larger equipment 20 acres would be unmanageable. If the value of the land is high and taxes too, it will need to produce income. Perhaps most of it could be sown to good legumes and some hay harvested by leasing it out and a small area utilized for fruits and vegetables.

If the land is run down some, even the gardened part could be partly in a soil building rotation.

"Do research (reading) till your eyeballs fall out of your head! "

Haha, yes I will!!! ;)

Thanks so much. I have been looking into marketing and found if we sell it not in bulk but to the high end market we will spend 50% of our time selling/marketing. We will NOT go to the "farmers market" either.

I think we will farm 1-2 acres to get a hang of it.

Hey, thanks for the tips so far.

I'd sure visit your local co-op, if I were you. So.... has anyone done a market study? Is there anyone in the group with some experience?

Organic nuts and berries are usually pretty expensive at the supermarket.

"Is there anyone in the group with some experience? "

No not at all, maybe just gardening, thats it.

Thats why we are more or less going to just make a huge 1 acre garden of various veggies. The owner has years experience growing in a small green house growing tomatoes but thats it. I have seen gardens that use ride on small tractors and golf carts, and with there system I could see they could easely of farmed way more land. If we grow mixed veggies we can sell more selection to each individual. We will keep it small at first, but I would still like to here some good hints.

The land is very flat and the area he wants to farm is a little higher elevation so it wont flood.

I think he said it was fenced too!! : )

Thanks everyone.

I do, well did, but starting up again now that I have done what I suggest in the following.
The amount you plant and the workers needed are the result of what you can sell. If you don't sell it then you are really in the organic business, making compost.
When entering into a business, any business, the first thing that should be done is a market survey. Check with the local markets and find out if they have a problem getting any veggies in demand by some of their customers.
What does the local population consist of, Asian, Latino, German, etc.? You could cater to a specific group, not much different than going organic. You should go door to door and find out what potential customers want. Restaurants should be included. Then raise it and sell direct. Once you have determined your clientele and what they want, you need to estimate how much. Ask this question when doing the survey.
The other way is grow it, stand on the corner, or at the local farmers market and just hope someone will buy what you decided to grow.

I have a small organic market garden and orchards, some 7 acres total. We use a minimum of powered equipment and make all our own compost. I've been farming this ground for nearly 20 years. New ground with its reservoir of weeds and pests, low organic content and perhaps poor tilth takes several years of management and learning before productivity is assured.

I second the recommendation that you don't plant anything until you have a market, and not just vague promises either. I also say start small so that your mistakes are smaller. Do not grow for wholesale at the scale of proposed operation. Direct marketing is best although time-consuming. Well over 50% of my labor costs involves marketing. Of course, my operation is as much a demonstration urban mini-farm as it is a production unit. So we tend to grow a great variety of fruits, herbs, and vegetables and use somewhat expensive techniques to enhance growing environments.

Marshall, it might help the OP (and others) to know about how many man-hours go into an intensive 7-acre operation using a minimum of powered equipment, and what does that latter statement mean? Rototillers only, or small tractor with non-hydraulic implements, or mid-size tractor/s with typical 3-point hitch implements?

Pat, I'll come back and do the details tonight.

Hey, thanks guys. I am so glad to hear the info. Thanks for taking the time. : )

I just found there is a apple orchard on the farm too!!! So cant wait till spring but the work starts soon. Like I said after looking into the market we will probably just grow organic small farm for friends and family. Just take it one step at a time, thats all.

Thanks for the help, I will be going into this more informative becuse of your help.

Master Gardener,
I think that is a wise move on your part. I found out the hard way that taking something you love as a hobby and turn into a business can change your attitude in a hurry.
Not always but sometimes.

The rule of thumb for managing an intensive mixed cropping operation without heavy equipment is the one acre-one ag worker rule. With some equipment, like a good rototiller or small tractor and diversified tool bar, one ag worker can manage 4 acres of good ground. With better equipment and more limited crop selection, the amount of ground managed can rise higher but the limit is set more by needs to harvest and sell product.

In my market farming I use my landscape management crew to handle yard waste and composting and to do orchard chores several times a year. I have two other workers that help with gopher and rabbit trapping, bed prep and some weeding. I would judge that they spend about a quarter of their time "farming". I spend a similar amount of time purchasing supplies, doing starts, seeding and transplanting and some weeding. So let's say that about one man-day is dedicated to cultivating the market garden of nearly 2 acres.

I have 3 people who work about two man-days a week in direct marketing, including harvesting and handling, bagging and boxing and deliveries as needed They also collectively spend another man-day/week helping with plant grooming and some planting/transplanting.

My market garden beds are permanent and have been double dug and amended so that they are very productive and require a minimum of weeding.We use growth promoting materials and techniques, especially floating row covers to protect against pests and, in season, various plastic bed covers. For much of the year we rely on drip tape for irrigation and limit overhead sprinkler irrigation to covercropped areas.

Marshall, that old rule of thumb, one worker with hand tools to one acre of intensive means more-or-less full time, right? So we are talking about 1500 hours I presume, or at least a thousand. I would think that would leave time for marketing, as well. Even four hours a day five days a week for an experienced able-bodied hand is a lot of time in the field.

This is apropos, because I am finally getting serious about ramping up production at an acre that I rent. Myself and another are going to build an 8-foot deer fence around the whole acre - which the lack of for the past 12 years has kept me from putting in serious field time - and then she will take a third for flowers while I will expand to keep the other two thirds well managed (IOW, put in enough time to prevent take-over by grass and shrubs).

It is an amount of space that is right on the cusp of being slightly too large to manage with the time I have available and too small to justify buying serious equipment. We can hire tractors on occasion - in fact we just hired a rotovator -but the drive is considerable. I personally feel that frequent roto-tilling is a very damaging practice otherwise I would simply buy a large walk-behind and the problem would be affordably solved. Maybe I should buy it anyway and just use it for areas that get out of control. Or maybe with a good deer fence it will be worth putting in 500 hours a year of hand labor. If it were prime soil it would be worth it, unfortunately it is over-drained sandy soil.

Pat, Are you on an island? If so, how do you get to the mainland ?

Pat, the general consensus supports the idea that intensive ag is tough on the body and on the pocketbook. You or I would have to produce high-valued crops to make it pay. I fight this notion with a couple of guys who insist in growing cover crops for 5 months and then complain about pest and weeds over the remaining 7 months of growing out saleable crops. And having the farming not pay the bills.

You are plagued with an excessively sandy soil, meaning your expenses for amendments are high and yields of many crops lower than would be the case with growing on better soil. You have an advantage of being able to grow a cover crop/green manure crop in the Fall, allowing winter kill and having some residual effects for the Spring planting.

How much money have you got to spend? What are the fields in now? as in weeds, grass, tilled bare ground?
although I am NOT a farmer, I'd get all of the land worked and start working on organic matter and weed comtrol by growing soil building crops such as peas oats vetch mix, buckwheat or alfalfa. have you got outlets for abundances? have you got off farm income? There was a farmer in aroostook county maine that won the lottery. The media asked him what he was going to do with all that money. He said he'd just keep farming til the money was all gone....Not trying to discourage you... I want to do the same thing too.

"The media asked him what he was going to do with all that money. He said he'd just keep farming til the money was all gone....Not trying to discourage you... I want to do the same thing too"

If you read back this is why we are not going to farm for profit. After looking into the market the big farms ran out small farmers long ago, just like these huge depatment stores that run out mom and pop, not going to name any names.

So when there is all poor people and only a few rich, who will the rich sell to? ;)

Wayne, I am on martha's vineyard. We have a major ferry line here, runs every day 15 hours or more depending on the season.

Marshall, indeed it is a tragedy that my rental piece is not on some of the prime ag land that makes up about 1% of the island. That land is pretty tough to get a crack at as you can imagine. People that are willing to waste a lot more time than me have it all wrapped up :)

What I meant to say was we should focus on small business to benefit everyone, thats all. I enjoy cheap products which we would not have if it was not for big business so don't get me wrong.

pnbrown,

Feel free to be on your subject, I enjoy learning anything new. : )

Yes, I am guilty of hijacking your thread. Sorry.

Proviso: I don't earn any money whatsoever from agriculture nor horticulture so take anything i say with that grain of salt.

MasterGardener, why do you want to fertilize with a golf cart?

Whats a cheaper method?

By hand, using a bucket or wheelbarrow for small acreage. Otherwise, add a fertilizer box or two or three to you toolbar attached to the small tractor.

Golf carts are good to use for rigging your own seed planter behind, using less gas moving quiker then a tractor to do tasks. They come in handy.

I didn't realize they were fueled by gas or diesel. How many HP? What kind of ground clearance?

Got to get me one of those.

We had one in fla. Low HP, could be good for pulling small spreaders.

Yea, after seeing someone using on on their farm, I could see all the uses it has.

I have been testing the waters on farm sales for several years, and believe it may have potential.
Find a crop that will sell and get it out 'early' so that a premium price can be called for, as a 'wholesaler' to a Farm Market.

Harvesting IS the biggest problem and is often considered to take up to 60% of your labor, even though the harvest may run only a few weeks to a month or so, of your 5-7 month season of toil. I often discovered that when harvest begins, most of the rest of your life stops. Kind of like Dairy Farming. :)

I thought this over some more... farm the least amount of land as you can tend 'very' well.

I have nearly decided to get a BCS two-wheel tractor and rotary plow (amazing machine, check it out on tube). The tractor comes with rototiller as well, of course.

Anybody have first-hand experience with these?

I almost bought a BCS unit Pat. It had all the attachments I wanted except the lawnmower wasn't wide enough. Ended up with the Simplicity Sovereign tractor with blower/tiller/mower instead. I still go back and look at the BCS and if I were to have a large vegetable garden area, I'd definitely consider one.

A neighbour runs a vegetable market on five acres just up the road from me. He says growing the stuff is the easy part, marketing and harvesting is the hard part (he really loved to garden). I've sold compost to a couple who tried the CSA route but they got drowned out and then the municipality shut them down due to zoning regs. I think the CSA would work well but it would require a huge leap of faith on the part of the shareholders.

Lloyd

I know one guy in Hawaii that is "almost" making a living from 2 acres of lettuce. He sells ONLY to restaurants in his area. Just he & his son, part-time (after school, weekends) do all the work.
Call your local county extension office for some help. They can usually help with the soil tests too....both explaining how to gather them & maybe even sending them to your state U for testing. Here in Ga. it costs $6 per test & they have a tool they loan out for soil gathering, a soil probe.

We just bought a nearly-new BCS 732, gas engine. Planning to get the rotary plow for it.

I am not a farmer and don't know if any of my suggestions will help, so here it goes. Without knowing the state that the farm is in I will tell you what I know is going on in zone 6 NC. I would do Permiculture, you can always change back in the future and farm all 20 acres.

I'm picturing your 20 acre farm as one big square field.

Back left corner fenced off 3 acres
I would plant Hazelnut trees and grow truffles
I would also grow berries for now in between the trees, away from the trees roots. Later on you might have to stop growing berries around the trees.
I would also have bee hives in that fenced off area
The link below is info on how they are growing truffles in zone 6/NC and the state is giving grant money, see about this in your state. Also what other crops your state is helping farmers grow with grant money. As stated above by art 1 organic nuts and berries cost a small fortune.

Front right corner feced off 2/3 acres
I would get movable sheds to have chickens, organic large eggs cost min 6.00 a dozen.
I would also get a couple of jersey cows.
Then with the chickens and cows I would use the mob stocking technique. The cows would be eating all natural grass, weeds, flowers, ect. Then produce manure onto the ground. Then the chickens will dig through all of the manure in hunt for maggots and things, spreading the manure all around and making fertilizer for the cows food to grow better each time.
Then of course you have all of the manure from the chickens and cows in bedding to make your own compost.

Moving 5 acres
I would grow all of the grains (cover crop) for the chickens to eat.
Then when they were done I would grow my veggies on that plot and move the grains to the next 5 acres.

If you have any forest acres
I would go on some nature hikes and find wild ramp beds and transplant them in the forest area. Ramps sell for 15.99 a pound. After transplanting you should only have to let nature do the work. Zone 6 is perfect for ramps.

Hope some of this helped.

Here is a link that might be useful: NC truffle growing

Ramps sell for that kind of money delivered to a high-end urban market. I guess in between tramping in the woods for wild ramps, tending beehives, sowing and tilling under cover crops, planting trees, tending them, picking nuts and processing them, planting berries and tending them, picking berries, moving chicken tractors, keeping varmints out of crops and chickens, building up the land with amendments to start with, one can drive many miles a day to get the top dollar for nuts and ramps and berries.

Permaculture is the way to go, but it would be doing good if it paid taxes on the land in addition to providing good sustainable food for the operators. Really the same goes for all forms of agriculture. The only way to wring cash renumeration comparable to doing something else for a living is to mine the land in some way. The years and years of people trying to get money out of land has resulted in severe demineralization. The minerals have been stripped, sold, and sent to the bottom of the ocean. That is why I spend absurd amounts of time and quite a lot of money growing food that is better mineralized, because it virtually can't be bought.

I'm all for permaculture, in fact it's the only answer, but driving tony high-priced gourmet crops for miles when one could be spending their time improving the permaculture system is idiocy, IMO. Let people get their own fancy crops, I say. Which makes more sense - spend some of your time doing something that fetches many times the money per hour, and then use the money to create a superior horticulture, or to allow the exigencies of an economy that places no value on horticulture whatsoever to force you to create a crappy system that ultimately leaves the land no better or worse than you found it?

With 20 acres you could do gardening herbs & vegetables.
Later go into strawberries,Blueberries,Nut trees, other fruit trees. Christmas trees & Honeybees.

Doing most of 20 acres in crops certainly could be daunting unless you'all have health, energy, time, and desire for that. In the meantime, I would suggest having about 18 acres conditioned [and soil tested] for alfalfa or a mixture of deep rooted grasses and legumes to build up the soil in that meantime.

Practically every small farmer I know has a second job, or spouse has a job, to bring a paycheck to pay the bills and to set aside money for retirement and/or education costs for children. Farming 20 acres of row crops without major farm equipment is impractical and too time-consuming. Growing for wholesale markets on 20 acres is not going to be worth the effort unless you raise a very high-valued crop, such as strawberries. But then try picking and culling strawberries off 20 acres two or three times a week and haul off to a cold storage facility to take off the field heat.

Stay small enough to handle the work, develop local retail marketing program, and concentrate on quality.

IOW, "farming", in the traditional sense, does not pay. There is very little our society values less than growing food. Those who do manage to make some more significant income out of a small op are getting paid for processing and presentation, in effect. It always involves a retail portion.

As the old adage out here says: "Don't plant anything you don'e already have sold."

Shortly I will have invested close to 5k in 2/3 of an acre, simply to make it productive. Zero on the sales end. It will take years to get the money back, if ever. And this is public land that inflicts no cost on me, imagine if I had to pay taxes on it, to say nothing of buying it in the first place.

Some of us farm for the pure pleasure of it. Any net income is a bonus.

Lloyd

I am an anomaly-Farming is my only income and now That I have switched from farmers markets to CSA I expect to make an almost middle class income and more than enough to cover my expenses and likely enough to start some improvements on the farm such as a green house and a barn roof

And I am very much a small farmer as my farm is under 10 acres and the growing takes place on under 4 acres. of course it did take close to 20 years to get here and the big secret is to stay out of debt as much as possible

boulderbelt,

You no doubt have lots of hard work in your work. I have to tip the hat to you.

My agricultural pursuits generate perhaps 1/3 of my income, about $7k/acre/year, with very specifically focused marketing. There are a lot of ways to make this game work, but doing the same thing as your neighbor isn't one of them. I do derive pleasure from it, but haven't the luxury of doing it for that reason only. I grow ONLY specialty crops, not because I'm a snob, but because I want my kids to go to Ivy League schools, and the people who buy my specialty crops are less subject to the economic fluctuations that the rest of us are. Because of that, I have no problem with marketing my product while some of my local "competitors" are coming home from the farmers market and feeding their produce to their livestock or compost piles. Poor planning is the reason most beginning farmers fail; they don't understand the complexity of the business, underestimate costs and time required, fail to do adequate market research, fail to diversify not only crops, but markets and techniques, and do not incorporate flexibility into their business plan so that they can recover if unexpected circumstances occur. The other frequent cause of failure, as with those in the restaurant industry I serve, is under-capitalization. IMHO, one should not depend on ANY income from a new large-scale farming operation for the first five years, because it takes that long to establish a viable and profitable system that incorporates sufficient diversity, redundancy, and flexibility to weather the inevitable misfortunes that everyone in this industry encounters.

And yes to BCS, with 33" tiller, moldboard plow, brush mower, and chipper shredder attachments. Get the Honda motor if possible. Hire a tractor for larger jobs unless you can buy one and be the one hired.

That is just what I have always supposed, when thinking about making a real jump to growing and selling crops for a living: minimum 5 years of full-time effort before clearing expenses. If land cost was ignored.

Problem is, once it's a business, it is no longer much fun. If I must do something that is not a great deal of fun, most of the time, I might as well do whatever brings the most income. If that was farming, I'd be doing it.

My commercial gardens were designed specifically to be a pleasant place to work. I have continually tried to integrate systems that reduce long-term drudgery, I have outdoor Bose speakers that bring music and NPR to my work, my garden shed has a woodstove, armchair, bookshelves, refrigerator and running water. My production beds are surrounded by flowers and fruit trees, and my location is such that I am not pestered by unwanted guests, so working in a state of extreme unclothedness is not an issue, should I feel so inclined.

My gardening started as an outgrowth of my career in restaurants, and as such has in fact always been profitable, because I had the market before I started, and have for most of my career followed that approach. As I became more skilled, I introduced new crops and techniques that allowed me to have products that were unavailable elsewhere, and were thus high-value to the chefs I serve. I have my own opinions about how small-holding growers should manage their businesses that are frequently at odds with others on these forums, but I think the profitability of my operation is a strong argument for the viability of my business model. The bottom line must by necessity be the primary decision-driver of any business, and all of my crop decisions eventually devolve to the $/sq.ft./year calculation, with all of the wonderful complexities that entails, but the fact that it is still a business should not preclude the possibility that it is, if not always enjoyable, at least nearly always satisfying, and sometimes a true delight.