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maxlife92

First time garden- not producing. advice?

14 years ago

I planted starter plants (tomato, cucumber, and yellow squash) as well as seeds (Kabocha winter squash and carrots) around April 20th. I have no produced one single fruit! I have been watering with soaker hoses and just started with the sprinkler. I usually watered an hour soaker hose a day. But temperatures are reaching mid 90's now. Here are some pictures. Please let me know if you see what the issue is!

I was looking forward to having some veggies at this point:(

This is where the garden is placed ( now how soil,plants, and fence)

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Summer squash (only two have flowers)

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Summer squash stem..is that normal?

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Tallest tomato plant ( none have flowers!)

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While some tomatoes are still only yay tall...

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Cucumbers(some leaves below) are flowering though...is it an infestation?

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Kabocha (C Maxima Winter Squash).. still tiny sprouts!!?

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Upclose kabocha..each sprout has a few discolored bottom leaves?

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Comments (28)

  • 14 years ago

    What is you soil like?
    How well does the soil retain moisture?
    How well does this soil drain?
    What is this soils pH?
    What nutrients are in the soil?
    How many days to harvest are those vegetables supposed to take?

  • 14 years ago

    From the picture it looks as though you placed the beds pretty much in the only shade in the area. Depending on the orientation of the tree (north, south, etc.), and how far away it is, that could be your problem.

    Veggie gardens like FULL sun--for most veggies, the more sun the better.

  • 14 years ago

    I was thinking the same thing. Those plants look really puny. What did you plant them IN and WHERE did you plant them?

  • 14 years ago

    kimmsr-

    I bought excelent living-organic soil from my local natural health food store. It is John's Ladybug soil as well as compost. I have 2 bags of soil for every bag of compost. I even have one bag of orgnanic worm castings in each 4x10ft bed. This soil was very expensive, so I really am thinking it must be anything but the soil!

    I water it about 30 min AM and 30 min PM with the soaker hose these days to maintain a moist soil about 1in deep.

    Underneath the soil is about 3 layers of cardboard I placed on the existing lawn. I have noticed that if i use the soaker hose on high for one hour, there is water that has drained from underneath about 7ft out into the lawn. I wondered if this would be an issue?

    I do not know the soils pH or the specific nutrients. I do know that it is probably the best soil I could have boughten.This is a link to the info on the soil:

    http://www.ladybugbrand.com/products/Hill-Country-Garden-Soil.asp

    The compost:
    http://www.ladybugbrand.com/products/Revitalizer-Compost.asp

    As well as the worm castings:
    http://www.ladybugbrand.com/products/Earth-Worm-Castings.asp

    I believe the range is anywhere from 55-95 days. And we are just past 50 days for the Kabocha and Carrots.The yellow squash,cucumbers, and tomatoes are further along because I bought them as small plants.

    plb_ge- The tree is West. Meaning I get full morning sun and partial sun the rest of the day. I was advised to do this by a local gardener who runs the health food store because she said the hot texas sun burnt her tomatoes,etc.

  • 14 years ago

    Sorry, but how much the "soil" cost is irrelevant. You should test your soil regardless. That being said, given what you've described, I think this might be more about how much soil you've got in the beds rather than what's in the soil itself. How deep are those beds? If you've just got a couple of inches of planting medium on top of 3 layers of cardboard, you haven't given those plants any room to develop. Do you realize how deep tomato roots typically go????

  • 14 years ago

    Agreed with Mary. You could also likely determine if sun is influencing things by looking--do the beds which get the most sun have bigger plants? If not, it's probably soil depth. You could trying digging some of the plants out, putting them in pots with more soil, and seeing if that helps. (Could also place the pots differently if it appears sun IS a factor.)

    This makes my heart sad--SO frustrating to put in all that money and work and have nothing coming from it!

  • 14 years ago

    With your watering system the tomatoes should/will not burn.
    It can get over one hundred degrees up here in Minn. with ninety some being comparatively normal and I have never had the sun burn my tomatoes which get sun from pretty much sun up to sun down.

    If you do not have at least eight inches of soil under those plants you are drowning them and washing the nutrients into the lawn.

    If the lawn around those beds gets real green that is proof positive.

    Why did you put the cardboard there?
    Is your soil that sandy?

  • 14 years ago

    They remind me of what my seedlings look like when i leave them in the pot far too long and neglected them, in other words lack of nutrients in soil

  • 14 years ago

    When did you put this soil together? If in the last 2 or 3 months it may be that the Soil Food Web is not developed enough to feed those plants what is in the compost you mixed in, The plants just may not be getting fed.
    Watering that often for that short period of time may not be enough to get the soil moist enough, deep enough. The moisture needs to be where the roots are.

  • 14 years ago

    Lasagne method normally calls for 4 sheets of newspaper, or one layer of cardboard, which kills the grass but breaks down and allows the roots to reach where they need to go.

    Consensus from above, and from past posts I've seen about watering (I don't water, so I'm taking info that I've learned here about that) -- water for longer, but more like once a week. Anyone want to chime in on if this is true for Texas too?

    Also, the cardboard will eventually break down, so you'll have more success when that starts to happen. OR you could take a shovel and turn over what's in the beds, and your shovel will help to break up the card board and help it decompose. It sounds like the "soil" you bought is high quality, but you'll still need some "rock" as my nephew farmer/masters in agriculture likes to say -- there is no rock in the bagged stuff, that's what's in the earth, so if you mix your bagged stuff with your earth you'll have a place for the soil food web to start up shop.

    Take heart -- this will get better. Sounds like you've been doing the equivalent of trying to grow large plants in shallow pots. You've got earth under all that, and as soon as it is available to your plants, your garden will become productive.

  • 14 years ago

    Just took a peek at the ingredients in the "soil" you bought -- definitely some good stuff in it, but they do recommend mixing it with the existing soil (in ratios of more native or existing soil than their bags). There is some granite in it, and some living organisms, but that's not the same as the rock and living organism colonies in native soil.

  • 14 years ago

    maxlife92, I'm no expert in this area but they look very similar to the results I had last year when I mulched some of my Vegi beds with wood chips as an experiment Is there any wood within soil you added?

  • 14 years ago

    Thank you all for your responses.

    marymd7-The beds are 1 ft deep.

    pbl_ge- Thank you for your sympathy! this is my first time gardening so im trying not to get too let down. The bed which gets the most sun is the kabocha bed. If i tried putting a plant in a pot to experiement,how big would it have to be to support the roots?

    RpR- I was told to put cardboard underneath. I am trying to make the garden as pure and organic as possible,eliminating any possible contamination. The grass is pretty green around the beds, but i didn't notice that because it is the only area in the yard that has not been mowed..so I figure that is why it looks so lush. There is 12 in. so i dont know if that is the problem? Like I mentioned before, if i soaker hose for 1 hr the water does spill out from underneath the beds. But I usually do 30 min AM and 30 min PM.

    Kimmsr- are you reccomending I water more? That is what i originally thought the problem was. However, I do always make sure the soil is moist about 1 in deep. But i have noticed with the soaker hose it is unconsistant because it only gets most right under the hose. I did put the soil in around mid April. What should I do to develop the Soil Food Web?

    elisa_Z5- Thank you. What would you reccomend for a "rock" source? Water once a week...for how long?

    gnhelton-not that I know of!!

    ** My main concern right now is that people have mentioned the tree. And obviously that would NOT be an easy job to move the entire garden. I am a 19 yr old girl living off a college budget and was blessed to have my grandpa fund what he did for this garden. So it is up to me and the resources I already have to bring life to this garden!

  • 14 years ago

    Hi Maxlife -- And here I thought you were a middle aged guy :)

    You already have the "rock" source -- it is your native soil.
    Bagged "top soil" is not actually the same as the topsoil that is the top layer of earth that all living things grow in -- they're not digging that up and selling it. They are composting forest products and calling it top soil because it was on the top in the forest, I guess. Anyway, it doesn't have the ground up rock that makes up the earth's top layer. Pick some up and try making it into mud. It won't work.

    Normally the recommendation is to mix the bagged stuff with the native soil -- the only reason not to do this is in places where lead or cadmium or other contamination is a problem. You look like you're far from the inner cities where this is the case.

    And the bags you bought have some micro-organisms added -- which is great -- but that's not the same as the colonies of micro organisms that form cities and complex relationships within the earth's top layer. That's the Soil Food Web. And that's right under your cardboard too.

    So, given the tree and the shade issue, you can always grow your lettuce in the partial shade (it's probably too hot for lettuce now, but when things start to cool off it'll be great for lettuce and other greens, all fall and into winter.)

    Do you have a wheel barrow? And some strong friends and shovels? Or at least friends who would be willing to work for refreshments? It actually wouldn't be too hard to move things. We've all moved so many tons of manure and compost over the years, a few raised beds don't look too hard. And you *could* take the sod out of the area you're moving to (instead of laying down cardboard to kill the grass, just dig it up and throw it in the compost), and then just mix your "soil" in with the native soil, and be worlds ahead of where you are now.

    The last concern is watering. I've heard people talk about drowning plants with too frequent watering. I'm hoping an expert on watering chimes in here. I live in an area that gets decent rain fall, and we have a limited spring, so I never water. Most plants call for "one inch of water a week"
    If you water a little every day, your plants will develop shallow roots. If you water deeply once a week, they'll develop stronger roots. Even if soil feels dry, there is still moisture in there. You asked how long -- I'm not sure how long it takes to drop an inch of water, but that's what you're shooting for. That's not moisture one inch deep -- an inch of water will hopefully moisten the soil 8 -- 12 inches deep. Then leave it alone for a week.

    You are on the right path, you're just not there yet.
    Keep on learning and trying different things.
    Visit the four season gardening forum -- in Texas you'll be able to grow things all winter, so just because your summer garden isn't working well, your year is far from a failure.

    Elisa

  • 14 years ago

    Do you have a ruler? If so, get it out and slide it into the dirt until it hits the cardboard. Based on the pictures and the amount of cardboard you say you used, I'm betting the soil depth is 6" or less. See the link below for how deep common veggie roots go. This would also be your guide for how big pots would need to be.

    And keep in mind that most gardeners have had many, many failures over the years. Oh, the plants we've killed! It's not at all surprising that your first year is a struggle, so don't feel bad.

    You might try to find someone from your area who'd be willing to come check out your situation and give you advice. I've gardened in TN, in Seattle, and now in Western NYS, but I'm quite certain that nothing I've done would prepare me for southern TX, and I suspect most posters here are also from very different climates. Perhaps someone from the garden store where you bought all that expensive soil would be willing to take a look if you asked super nicely? Or a neighbor? Or someone from your local master gardener's org? Most gardeners are very generous and would be delighted to help out a young newbie.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Raised beds

  • 14 years ago

    As Elisa said ther is no need for the cardboard. To many people read that x, y or z is the miracle method without realizing that in most conditions where the soil is simply soil, all latest and greatest are a waste of time and money.

    I agree also looking at those pictures, unless your sideboards are two-feet high there is not twelve inches of soil in there.

    If you move them, simply take sand shovel and turn the ground over, putting grass side down and set the commerical soil right over this.
    Water will no longer flush out of the planting box and keep all where it should be.
    Even up here where we have had over a foot of hard rains, when I worked in the garden last week I found top three inches moist and below that only damp hard, packed by rain soil.
    Your cardboard is taking the water and fertlizer and making the lawn happy.
    I assuime you are using corrogated fiber-board rather than true card-board.
    I burn about half of the ones I get, small and large and have found that some contain "stuff" that makes them hard to burn, do not want to ignite; therefore I wonder what ever the stuff is, does to absorbing water and rotting.

    My rose gardens which are in a broad sense similar to yours due to haveing wooden borders, I take five gallon pails and flood the area, partly to water, as part of the time there fertilizer in there and at some other times there is Serenade in the water to kill goblins.

  • 14 years ago

    elisa- Thank you for your in depth response, really appreciate it! I was looking at the soil, and it has small fragments of rock in it, so I don't know if that means anything. But I am trying to use a process of elimination here, and I feel it is either the tree or the cardboard. Either way that would require me to move the beds. Unfortunately I have absolutely no one but myself, so that would be quite a project. Do you have any experience or ideas for how to do that? My biggest fear is that I cannot buy all new soil.
    Also, I have been watering everyday out of fear they are thirsty with this Texas sun. I have heard the once a week grows better roots idea before but i am always being told from different sources to water everyday...

    pbl_ge-Thank you. I just measured the soil: 11in. I may have a neighbor who built the beds for me take a look.But I am really questioning his judgement because he placed the beds underneath the tree for me (he has his own large garden) and didn't say it may be a problem.

    RpR-I agree. The only reason my soil and compost was so expensive I imagine is because it is so hard to find true organic. Some of the cardboard I layed down was from things such as a TV box where there was a "picture" like material which may not decompose as easily. I sure hope if the cardboard is the issue here, that it will hurry up and decompose! I just used the soaker hose for 45 minutes and the water poured out from under the beds about 20 ft! That must mean the cardboard is still too hard for roots to penetrate, therefore the plants dont grow?

  • 14 years ago

    Oy. Sounds like the cardboard is the main culprit right now.
    On moving -- yes, I have moved so much manure by myself, it makes a raised bed look like nothing. If you can borrow a wheel barrow and start digging, just start. Digging is fun, and you can decide to work on one bed. That will be your test to see if more sun is better. As RpR said, you can just turn the soil over in the new spot and put your bagged soil on top.

    For the other beds, I'm thinking of something very simple and quick that really should help. Take something sharp -- a digging fork would be perfect. Borrow one if you have to. And step and stab all over the bed (stick it in the soil, step on it to dig it down to penetrate that cardboard. If you're small like me, you'll have to jump on it with both feet.) The holes should do 3 things: 1. let the water seep down into the native soil and stop flooding your lawn. 2. give the roots a way to find their way down to the native soil and 3. break up the cardboard to help it rot.

    That tree looks a little spindly, so I think there might be hope that you've got enough sun. It's not a black walnut, is it?

    And yeah, I saw the pieces of rock in the photos -- that must be the granite. Still not the same as living soil. But you've got living soil under the cardboard -- so not a problem. Just need to make it available.

    Hey -- report to us what happens with this garden, okay?

  • 14 years ago

    I'm very hesitant to even think about moving the garden because I would have to move the entire fence and everything. Ah!! Thank you for the ideas. I will see what I can do. I wish I could narrow it down to the exact problem.

    I am so determined to get my organic veggies!

    I will let you know..for sure!

    thanks again

  • 14 years ago

    The only other thing that comes to mind at the moment is that something is preventing good root development. Did you loosen the root balls as you planted? Make sure there were no large air bubbles around the plants? Is it possible you have burrowing animals eating at the roots? You could try digging up a plant or two and examining the roots to see if you could get a hint. And, if they came in pots that were supposed to be biodegradable, I'd dig them up and remove the pots. After this much time the roots should be extending well into the surrounding soil. If they're not, you've identified the problem (although the cause is something else).

    It IS possible that the daily watering is a problem, but that shouldn't be stunting them quite like this--they'd look a bit more rotten and less like malnourished orphans.

    If you do have to move, you can keep everything you've bought, and you shouldn't need to buy anything else. But if multiple local people have told you not to move yet, I wouldn't until you've done a test, like removing a plant, putting it in the same soil in a pot in a different place, and watching to see if the sole change of location improves matters.

    Maybe dig a couple of things up and take some pictures of the roots?

  • 14 years ago

    I did not "loosen the root balls", Im not sure what that means. I am pretty certain there are no animals getting in either. I did not plant them in pots, those were plastic and i took them out. If the plants are in 11inches wouldnt that be enough for them to grow their roots without needing to go beyond the bottom layer (cardboard)? If so,moving the garden would not do me any good. If its not the tree, then I do not want to go through the hassle, ya know?
    If I dig up one of the plants-what should I specifically be looking for?

    I really appreciate the help, im obviously not too educated on all of this, but i am trying!

  • 14 years ago

    Never mind my answer above. I just reread your original post and saw you planted two months ago. I had in my mind that you planted them recently.

  • 14 years ago

    Okay, so- I had a neighbor gardener who actually built the beds for me come out and take a look. He was a little bit stumped until I told him about the three layers of cardboard. And then he reached down 11in into the soil-pure slop.

    He said that the plants were trapped and had no oxygen because there was no drainage.

    Our game plan:
    -Take out plants and put them into temporary pots.
    -Get a yard worker to come out and push over the soil, section by section, and remove the cardboard. And put the soil back in place.
    -Replant my stunted plants with some sort of "rock" supplement.I forget the name.
    -Build a well around each plant
    -Hand water every morning
    -Supplement every 2-4wks with "Hasta Gro Plant Food"

    Sound good?

  • 14 years ago

    I was looking at how far beneath the top of the bed is to the top of the board. You are pretty shallow on soil. You also have a lot of space between your plants. This is just a suggestion, use the soil out of one bed to raise the level of the other two and crowd those plants a little into the two beds. Get the two beds up and running. then worry about the third. The soil should be level with the top and even hump up in the middle a little. If that is all organic soil, you are going to loose up to 25% a year as it rots and breaks down.

  • 14 years ago

    You are fortunate the boards allowed the water to escape or you would have hand tiny or dead plants.

    I have seen a lot of plants that were over watered in pot and they generally look and act like your did.

    Your lawn, or at least part of it, probably is in love with you right now.

  • 14 years ago

    Yes! Get RID of that dang cardboard. Even better than stabbing it or moving the whole bed. I really think that's most, if not all, of your problem, and the plan you made with your neighbor sounds great.

    Looks like Hasta Gro might have an organic version and a non-organic version, and since you've said you want your OG veggies, just make sure you get the OG version (which is also kinder to the Soil Food Web members)

    Rough start. I think your luck is about to turn around. :)

  • 14 years ago

    Those of us who have been gardening for many seasons make it sound easy. Organic Gardening is not easy, it is better for a lot of reasons. The hardest part(IMO) is building the soil the first three years. The first two gardens were on my Father rich farm soil with some kind of compost already in it. Third garden was in a sandy waste land where I was renting & I failed, got some crops, land lord laughed at me.
    I have made compost & soil building my main priority, planting, watering,mulching then worry about bugs & harvesting.

  • 14 years ago

    I live in south Texas and I can guarantee you the cardboard IS necessary--brings the worms up anyway. Also, the garden appears to be situated in the right spot--I am shading even my squash to keep it from burning up. Many plants are waiting for cooler weather (be awhile) to produce, so it's either baby them along or jerk 'em, work on the soil, and replant for cooler weather. I am south-southeast of San Antonio--let me know if I can help. It's been a real learning experience for me cuz I am from southern CA.