Grrrrr. You should have read the entire label BEFORE you sprayed your field.

Truly, if you are not going to read and understand the labels of pesticides, you have no business using them. If you cannot read and understand them, find someone responsible who CAN and will instruct you on the proper and legal use of your pesticides.

The use of RoundUp, or any other glyphosate product, is not acceptable to any organic grower. No responsible organic grower would use that stuff and then come to an oprganic gardening forum to ask whether it is okay to use around anything, much less livestock.
My opinion is keep your livestock, and everything else, off that land for about 5 years.

Aside from the fact that I agree with kimmsr and rhizo, Monsanto's Round-up is horrible stuff, I'd have to ask why you didn't plow the weeds under? Certainly (3) acres is enough room to get a tractor in, and if you don't own one rent or borrow one.

Greg
Southern Nevada

The more I think about this posting, the more I think that it might be the work of a troll who knew exactly what buttons to push.

Could be, rhizo we'll see if he or she returns to the thread.

Greg
Southern Nevada

Lloyd wrote:

"I can also understand why this forum doesn't seem to get many people posting."

Well, Lloyd with all due respect, when someone comes to an "Organic Gardening" forum and openly admits to spraying Monsanto's Round-Up, (a poison), where livestock are grazing, I would think that they should expect some negative comments. While I don't agree that they should be kept away for (5) years, I do not think that I would allow my animals to graze there for some time. I feel that the OP should get the message that it wasn't a good idea to do so and look for alternative methods to rid his/her field of weeds in the future, so their question was answered, wasn't it?

Greg
Southern Nevada

LD50 is a standard measure of chemical toxicity. It is the median lethal dose that will kill 50% of the tested animal population. The animals usually are mice, rats or rabbits. The dose measure is expressed as the mass of substance administered per unit mass of test subject. This is most commonly mg/kg. The lower the dose, the more toxic the substance.

Roundup
Acute oral toxicity
Rat, LD50 (limit test): > 5,000 mg/kg body weight

Aspirin
Oral, rat: LD50 = 200 mg/kg;

So it is obvious that aspirin is more toxic than Roundup.

Roundup is a herbicide and there really is no organic herbicide so we can not make a real comparison. But let us just look at a very common organic insecticide.

ROTENONE
LD50 Oral Rat 60 mg/kg

Now why would organic proponents want to use such a toxic natural material when more benign synthetic insecticides are available?

As for the cows; after a day, they will be fine.

The issue is that he sprayed first and thought about it later. I am also deeply concerned that, since he did not have the label information about how long to prevent grazing on a sprayed field, he also doesn't know any of the other safety and use directions.

The interim between application and grazing depends upon the rate at which the chemical was applied, and the crop it was sprayed on. It can vary from 3 to about 25 days, all which is clearly described ON THE FREAKIN' LABEL!

As you said Greg, with all due respect, certainly, the OP got his negative comments but speculation about his motive for posting when a 15 second search would have revealed previous posts from him seems downright unfriendly. I see other posts from members of this forum discussing GMOs or using chemicals yet no similar speculation or admonishment for betraying the purity of organics. Seems to be a multiple standard.

You were wondering why people don't post on this forum on a different thread, I was pointing out a possible explanation. Certainly the claim can be made that I am the pot calling the kettle black, fair enough, but I usually respect a persons opinion and questions until such time as they demonstrate to me they no longer deserve my respect.

And BTW, if only organic people are allowed to post here, there ought to be a disclaimer so that none of us unclean people come around. I am more than willing to stay away and let the falsehoods be propogated further if that is in fact the case.

Lloyd

cowgirl2, a chemical can cause health problems and not have a low LD50. I would be very hesitant to make a statement like "As for the cows; after a day, they will be fine." based only on LD50 values. Do you have any additional scientific data to support your conclusion (a cow is a very significant investment).

Here is a link that might be useful: scorecard link for glyphosate

There were many concerned answers about the misuse (or in this case just "use") of the herbicide known as Round Up, I took the time to further research this efficient weed killing chemical to find that Glyphosate (the main ingredient) had some damaging effects to the soil. Not many people (including myself) realize that that these Glyphosates stills exist in the soil for an extended amount of time after the initial application. It does so by clinging to the soil particles, causing the newly growing plants to be more susceptible to certain diseases and infections. Its effects can be magnified when rains wash these chemicals into our lakes and streams. Glyphosate has been known to raise the water temperatures and ph levels among bodies of water which can lead to depletion of oxygen. This can lead to death for much of the residing wildlife in the ecosystem.
I also found that Round Ups persistence is soils is not definite but has been recorded in soils as long as a year. I believe the livestock should be able to go back to grazing tomorrow and decided to take extra precautions today by putting up temporary fencing around areas receiving most of the treatment.
After reading a handful of answers posted, it prompted me to verify that my question was as how I intended it to be. I couldnt understand how I flustered so many people and then I saw the forum category. "ORGANIC GARDENING" At that point, it all made sense to me. I thought I had cut someoneÂs arm off with the responses I received. (LOL) However, I do appreciate yÂall standing up for what you believe. (And you did) It has given me a new found respect for what come out of organic methods. It is something we must all embrace or we may be the very reason for our extinction.
And to think that Glyphosates are the most widely used herbicide in the world! I wish for one moment our higher authorities would look overlook their large income they continue to rake in and realize we are cutting our own throat. Changes must be made to ensure NatureÂs remarkable features are here for generations to come.
IÂll try to be more wary of the category I post my questions in next time! (Laughing)
Now I have an appropriate question. What would yÂall suggest I do about future weed problems?
Thanks for all answers,
Joe

greenbriar - Thank you for getting back and responding. I don't think that anyone thought you were trying to cut their arm off. As you alluded to, they were/are standing by what they believe in. I also don't think that you have to be wary of what you post here either. Just be prepared to read about how people feel about the subject. As far as future weed problems: I would get a plow on a tractor and plow them under "Before They Go To Seed." The organic material will be good for the soil, and eventually you'll get a handle on them. Thanks again for coming back with your thoughts.

Greg
Southern Nevada

Well Joe; glad you are ok with it, my self I find the reaction to your post be very offensive in nature. I am not organic and right now I am very happy I am not! Not use the land for 5 years, give me a break and from a long term member, and to attack you personalty. Well that's enough of that. I also hate cides but do not fear them!

Curt

You know, Greenbriar...I don't care one bit what forum you posted in. I've helped many people with chemical questions in this forum. What bothered me, as I said earlier, was that you didn't seem to have a rudimentary understanding of the label instructions. Spraying first and thinking later is just a good thing! It scares the daylights outta me.

But, I'll bet that next time you'll think before you spray. At least, I hope so.

ANY time that you're not real sure about application rates or when or how to use a chemical that you've purchased, I invite you to email me personally and if I can help, I will absolutely do so. I mean that, and I hope you take me up on it. It would be my pleasure to help.

I feel that U.S. label precautions of many agricultural chemicals are often in the catagory of probably "necessary" but also possibly "not sufficient" as it takes time for new research to be translated into EPA label requirement "action".

Joe a conventional method is to mow with a brush hog I assume your talking thistles and such that your cows don't eat well they probably won't eat it now either so it shouldn't be to much of a problem if you have sprayed the whole three acres there is not going to be much to eat at all for a few months there are defiantly better sprays than roundup for pasture use ask at the local mill for the best info

You could consider a goat to eat the weeds also

I would be quite hesitant to take advise form somebody who insults you and then refers to roundup as a pesticide

Just a few points to the OP. In your 8/23 post you say that "Today I sprayed Round Up all about a 3 acre field" . & "After giving it some thought, I began to wonder what effect it may have on the livestock that graze the area. Should I prevent them from going into this field for a day or two? Or is it safe to let them go back to the area as soon as it dries. "

Several of the responses chided you for spraying first and asking later, which they characterized as misuse. But in your 8/24 post, you characterize your uninformed spraying as use rather than misuse and then stated "I took the time to further research this efficient weed killing chemical ." Followed by a long anti-RoundUp screed.

Which does make me wonder if your OP wasnt a set up to encourage discussion of RU. Ie: you went from spraying 3 acres with a powerful herbicide on one day to "It is something we must all embrace or we may be the very reason for our extinction. " the next day. Thats a quick turn around.

Actually I have no objection to engaging in a discussion. But going around the back door to incite arguments is the kind of disingenuous device used by the spray and kill folks.

jonas....a 'pesticide' is any chemical that is used in the management of a living pest. That pest may be a weed(herbicide), a rat (rodenticide), an insect (insecticide, a mite (miticide), a germ (antimicrobial), and on and on and on.

But wait, don't believe me....here's a link to some rudimentary information about how to correctly use the term 'pesticide'.

"Now why would organic proponents want to use such a toxic natural material when more benign synthetic insecticides are available?" Thanks cowgirl2.
I have been a Organic Gardener for 30 something years & I have never understood the HATE for other peoples point of view. We should read ALL labels, but all the rest is over the top. 5 years is as unreal as some of the other wild reproving points of view I have read on this forum.

Now why is it that when people that practice organic methods express their opinions on an organic gardening forum some people label that as "hate"? I have read nothing here written that could be even remotely considered "hate".
If you do not want to be told that what you are doing is not considered accetable by organic standards don't post your question or comments on an organic forum.

I have always thought that 'know your enemy' is a good idea. If you are opposed to RoundUp then shouldn't you know everything about it? How to remedy it?

If the neighbor brings you a kid who has overdosed on drugs do you say "Sorry,this is an organic household. Take the unfortunate brat elsewhere."? If a parent takes a kid to ER who has overdosed on the neighbors drugs the doctor does not say "Sorry, we disapprove of overdosing. Go somewhere else to seek a remedy."

I hope that you didn't actually ladle a poison all over without reading or thinking about it first.

I have made organic opinions on other forums & sites & never been told to go to another forum , because that is not a organic forum.
But anyone who does not follow some people ideal of TRUE organic methods & do not have tons of earth worms are wrong & should not be on this site.
That is the rigid opinions by some on this forum.
The yellow jacket thread, the many perennial grass threads, all have non organic persons giving their opinions, then are told this is an organic forum.
We all know it is an organic forum, but if I am going to give organic answer on a forum that does not have organic in the title, then the least I can do is let other say what they think with out jumping on them for their opinion.
I am sorry if I am harsh, but now maybe you know what non-organic poster feel.
They will never come over to organic thinking if we all come off as a group of Fanatics.

I too was looking for an answer to my question about the use of Roundup around livestock and I ended up here. I was disappointed with the forum - full of insults and no answers. If you can't answer the post question, I suggest you refrain from posting insults and gibberish. It seems as though I have stumbled onto a website with a bunch of fanatics instead of rational adults. I did a little more research and found relevant information for Greerbriar. It is also of great interest and relevance to human health.
Here it is:
Glyphosate Predisposes Cattle to Botulism
A German study15 published earlier this year looked at glyphosateâs role in the rise of toxic botulism in cattle. This used to be extremely rare, but the incidence has become increasingly common over the past 10-15 years. Normal intestinal microflora is essential for keeping Clostridium botulinum and other pathogens in check, and researchers are now finding that the beneficial gut bacteria in both animals and humans is very sensitive to residual glyphosate levels. This has been discussed previously by both Dr. Don Huber and Dr. Stephanie Seneff.

In this study, the researchers explain that certain intestinal bacteria produce bacteriocines that are specifically directed against C. botulinum, as well as other dangerous pathogens. According to the authors, lactic acid producing bacteria that help defend against Clostridium pathogens are destroyed by glyphosate, suggesting that the rise in C. botulinum associated diseases may be due to glyphosate-tainted animal feed.

The Overlooked Component of Toxicity in Humans

As for its effects on humans, the Samsel - Seneff study published in June suggests that glyphosate may actually be the most important factor in the development of a wide variety of chronic diseases, specifically because your gut bacteria are a key component of glyphosateâs mechanism of harm. Monsanto has steadfastly claimed that Roundup is harmless to animals and humans because the mechanism of action it uses (which allows it to kill weeds), called the shikimate pathway, is absent in all animals. However, the shikimate pathway IS present in bacteria, and thatâs the key to understanding how it causes such widespread systemic harm in both humans and animals.

The bacteria in your body outnumber your cells by 10 to 1. For every cell in your body, you have 10 microbes of various kinds, and all of them have the shikimate pathway, so they will all respond to the presence of glyphosate!

Glyphosate causes extreme disruption of the microbeâs function and lifecycle. Whatâs worse, glyphosate preferentially affects beneficial bacteria, allowing pathogens to overgrow and take over. At that point, your body also has to contend with the toxins produced by the pathogens. Once the chronic inflammation sets in, youâre well on your way toward chronic and potentially debilitating disease...

The answer, of course, is to avoid processed foods of all kinds, as theyâre virtually guaranteed to contain genetically engineered ingredients, and center your diet around whole, organic foods as toxic pesticides are not permitted in organic farming. Supporting GMO labeling is also important if you value your health, and that of your family and friends, in order to be able to make informed shopping decisions.

Oh boy...a 2 year old link dug up by a newcomer to scold us and then link a mercola article.

That's all kinds of awesome.

However, NC, I think the point that bacteria are impacted by glyphosate is profound and troubling.

This has been discussed previously by both Dr. Don Huber and Dr. Stephanie Seneff.

Dr. Don Huber ... the man who refuses to show anyone his data?

Dr. Stephanie Seneff ... her doctorate is in Electrical Engineering. She has done NO research in the area of that paper. She simply speculated that, if anyone, anywhere, found that glyphosate could do anything in any organism, that thing must also be happening in humans everywhere.

I had (old info I guess) thought that RoundUp was safe for use as it was a biodegradable compound. Bearing in mind that my agricultural training was a LONG time ago, when RoundUp was new.

I guess they found it's not that safe now...but what alternatives do we have to trees in fencerows and such ? You can't plow them..and cutting them results in a 100 sprouts which reach 10 ft in their first year...etc? Seriously, what DO you do ?

Products containing glyphosates have never been "safe" and have never been acceptable to organic growers, any more than any other synthetic plant poison. As time has passed and more of the product has been used more and more problems with its use have cropped up. Plants becoming immune to the products, genetic mutations in critters where the products have been used, are among the problems known about glyphosates.

See:

http://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-in-malformed-piglets-2161-0525.1000230.pdf

An omicsonline "study"? OMICS...Really?

Not only is this home base for a slew of "approval mill" journals, OMICS also holds very expensive "pay for play" (aka, the presenters pay) conferences. They're one of the biggest players in the Asian-based international science fraud journal game.

What's even worse is not only will they take pretty much anything, they "edit" your submission then charge you for it ($100s of dollars). People generally pay because you're not going to get published by them without the editing revisions.

A few people I know have been cold-solicited by them to submit a paper or offering editorial board membership (as long as you publish once a year with them). It's laughable. Heck, the spam cut/paste emails they send out to cold-solicit you are full of rather bad English for a "journal" that charges almost every submission an editorial revision charge.

As for the paper, itself, it's just plain weird. It's a very sparse paper and they take a mass-born piglet experience from a single farmer and jump to a conclusion about it perhaps being glyphosate (without testing for anything else, including genetic). 10s of thousands of pig farmers of all sizes of farms are feeding their animals gmo corn/soy every day.

" In conclusion, glyphosate appears to modulate the fungal community. The reduction of IgM antibodies and LBP indicates an influence on the innate immune system of animals."

See:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00284-014-0656-y

@rhizo_1 First of can you let it go already. You know you have been an arse and just keep repeating yourself hoping the more you say it will make it better. It doesn't. For someone so judgmental of others you are calling a herbicide a pesticide. I do hope his animals weren't in danger of being injured while you carried on with your self fulfilling diatribe. He came for advise. Yes everyone should be reading the labels but while he is here wouldn't it be more effective to the purpose of this page to first tell him how to secure his animals and then graciously offer him an alternative, perhaps a reason why it might be better to find an alternative method. By the way, I think he conducted himself in a humble and gracious manner with his respectful response.

Lol, Sam dear.....I "let it go" over five years ago! Now, don't tell me that YOU don't understand what the term pesticide means, either!

Keep in mind that the World Health Organization has labeled glyphosate products as potential carcinogens.

kimmq is kimmsr

At least around here, a pasture gets sprayed to control thistle and Russian nap weed, both broad-leaf plants that are unpalatable to cattle and horses - I can't imagine why spraying them with roundup is going to make them suddenly palatable and thus an issue.

They make a product sometimes branded as "pasture pro" that is a broadleaf killer but does not kill grass. If you were going to apply something this would have been the product. All those chemicals including glyphosphate (Round Up) have a minimum time to keep livestock off the field.

The organic solution would likely have been good old goats.

Kimmsr said, all alarmed ..."Keep in mind that the World Health Organization has labeled glyphosate products as potential carcinogens."
http://www.ecpa.eu/news-item/human-health/03-19-2015/2565/ecpa-statement-reacting-iarc-review-pesticides

“The IARC conclusions published in Lancet Oncology contradict the
world’s most robust and stringent regulatory systems – namely the
European Union and the United States – in which crop protection products
have undergone extensive reviews based on multi-year testing and in
which active ingredients such as glyphosate and malathion been found not
to present a carcinogenic risk to humans.”

“From the summary conclusions it appears that IARC has
made its conclusions as a result of an incomplete data review that has
omitted key evidence.”

“The IARC rating is based on the intrinsic properties
of active substances and limited epidemiological evidence. Where the
full evidence is taken into account – and the evaluation covers actual
use – there is no proof that pesticides cause cancer in humans. This is
clearly shown by several studies on farmers’ health. Farmers (who are
the most exposed to pesticides) live longer and in better health than
the rest of the population. Cancer incidence and mortality is lower in
farming populations than in the rest of the population for all major
types of cancer but skin cancers.”

“Europe’s crop protection industry will continue to
work with regulators to ensure each and every product goes through the
proper testing procedure and enters the market only when its safety has
been assured.

Conclusions about a matter as important as human safety must be based on
the highest quality science that adheres to internationally recognized
standards. The IARC classification system is not aligned with current
international regulations and the organization’s recent decisions create
needless public concern.”

Lazy Garden wrote, " Kimmsr said, all alarmed". Wrong.

I am not all alarmed just stating a simple fact. As I have said many times before the glyphosate products are not acceptable to organic growers and anyone that espouses the use of them on an organic gardening forum is not an organic grower.

Despite assurances from the manufacturers that these products do not harm ":non target" species researchers are finding genetic mutations in lower forms of life where the use of them is prevalent that does not appear elsewhere.

There are those that insist they should be able to use these poisons, and they should be able to as long as those poisons do not enter into my space. Unfortunately they do. No one should have the ability to poison my eco system.

kimmq is kimmsr

See:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Awad_Shehata/publication/261250327_Detection_of_glyphosate_residues_in_animals_and_humans/links/551112ec0cf2ba844840b212.pdf

This link relates to the attempt of some to downplay the IRAC glyphosate and cancer report.

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/files/glyphosate-faq_64013.pdf