Apical dominance dictates sap pressure is highest at the terminal ends of the cane. Sap pressure rises because of the adhesion factor of water (water is sticky, it rises higher than its own level in a tapered tube) and the transpiration of water through the stomata (pores on the leaf undersides). Hormones, auxins, nutrients are concentrated at those terminal ends.

The ends of the cane usually are either newly growing tips which continue growing as long as resources remain available. Or, there are spent flowers at their tips. If the spent flowers dry up and don't result in hip formation, the plant has to wait for immature buds to mature to be ready to be pushed into growth by sap pressure. If a hip is formed, the plant is pregnant. Flowering is ovulation, hip formation is pregnant. Usually, you don't ovulate when pregnant. Many do, but often to a much reduced extent. Removing the hip eliminates pregnancy hormones and the drain on resources required to carry the pregnancy full term, both of which push the plant to rebloom.

Usually, the growth buds further down the cane from the spent flower are thicker, larger than those higher up the thinning stem and will result in thicker secondary stems. Pruning to that level then makes that growth bud the terminal end of the cane and increases the sap pressure pushing that bud into growth. Those buds lower on the thicker canes will generate thicker, stronger new canes than the smaller ones on thinner wood will. It isn't required to prune down to them to have increased growth, but the resulting growth from the prune will usually be thicker and stronger than that resulting from thinner, smaller growth further up the stem.

Usually, there are three things you can try to induce new foliage growth on a bare cane. Prune down to approximately the level you wish new foliage to stimulate it to replace the foliage in that area.

Bend the cane or otherwise interrupt the sap flow, slowing it down, to stimulate the growth buds in that area into growing. This is precisely what you do when you 'train climbers'.

Increase nutrients and light to the area in hopes of encouraging the bare canes to replace their foliage. Usually not very successful because if the plant has shed that foliage, it is often because it is shaded so it receives too little light to be efficient in food production. Accomplishing what you seek to do is usually why the plant gets pruned. Kim

The rose that I want to encourage foliage on is about 5 feet tall. The bottom 2 feet is canes as big as my thumb and bare. In order to prune it back to this level, I would have to prune off 60% of the bush. I think that this is probably excessive at this time of year....Actually in California this is probably excessive at any time of year.

I probably can't change the path of the sun to give the bush more light, so I guess there is no way to produce leaves on the bare area.

andrea

My husband once remarked that Hybrid Tea Roses were "ugly plants with bare bottoms." I won't go so far as that -- but the bare bottom part is pretty accurate.

Dropping away the foliage on the lower part of the plant is a natural process. AAMOF, some rosarians recommend REMOVAL of the lowest foliage, to aid in disease control.

What you can more profitably to is to plant low-growing companion plants to disguise those "bare bottoms." One of the very very low-growing newer dwarf lavenders can work well for this. (Look up 'Thumbelina'.) They also provide a nice touch of blue, which roses don't offer.

Jeri

And, fuzzy, stinky companion plants can also help deter rabbits, squirrels and other vermin from foraging in your roses. Permitting them to invade the crown areas of the roses will result in greater bottom bareness due to shading the lower foliage.

Many plants are perfect "communes". The individual must contribute to the benefit of the whole at least to the point of the individual's drain or the plant sheds the part. As long as the leaf replaces the nutrients it absorbs, the plant maintains it. Once it uses more than it contributes, no matter why, the plant removes the sap and sheds the leaf. That's what you're seeing when you find yellowing leaves. Replace the sap flow to the bare areas either by changing the direction of the cane or cutting it and new foliage is produced. Shade the cane so the foliage can't photosynthesize and they are dropped. Ever notice how most plants have bare stems in their interiors? That's why. Those stems, canes, branches, etc. are initially the canopy carrying the food producing foliage. As the plant grows, they become shaded, so they drop the leaves and then become support and storage for the newer growth. Most often, you have to make them the "canopy" again to make them produce new coverage. It's as simple as that. Kim

Gentle suggestion to andreark:
When knowledgeable people take considerable time to craft a thoughtful response to your query, an appropriate reply might include "Thank you."
Cordially,
don

don,

If you've ever read any of my former replies, you would have noticed that they ALL are followed by a thank you.

Just a gentle suggestion, don't chastise someone you know nothing of.

andrea (no thank you necessary)

Fascinating, I love it when the rose pros get all technical!

Thanks for the cool info!

Also, plants pump a lot of nutrients into fruits and seeds, nutrients that would support more stems, leaves, and flowers if they weren't going into the fruits. Fruits/seeds are the most expensive things the plant can produce.

Andrea, if you want to cut your bare-legged roses back to get foliage closer to the ground, the best time to do that is at regular pruning time for your area. But as we have discussed before, it is normal for roses that don't suffer winter damage to have bare knees. Plant companion plants.

Michael,

This is rather strange, but yesterday I noticed that the tallest bare cane has new growth in 4 spots. Spaced rather nicely along the 3 foot length. The growths are nowhere near where a leaf is or was recently. I actually did something weird maybe 10 days ago. I used my clippers to cut back some of the deadish stubs on the bottom of this cane. I cut them until I got to live wood.

I know that this couldn't possibly have anything to do with the new growths. But why else would this happen?

Oh, and just so you won't think I'm rude, thanks for the one hundredth time,

andrea

Michael,
This is rather strange, but yesterday I noticed that the tallest bare cane has new growth in 4 spots. Spaced rather nicely along the 3 foot length. The growths are nowhere near where a leaf is or was recently. I actually did something weird maybe 10 days ago. I used my clippers to cut back some of the deadish stubs on the bottom of this cane. I cut them until I got to live wood.

I know that this couldn't possibly have anything to do with the new growths. But why else would this happen?

Oh, and just so you won't think I'm rude, thanks for the one hundredth time,

andrea

People don't help others for the thanks they get, they do it bacause they enjoy it.

Ditto caldonbeck, except I think it's nice of new posters to say thanks, and I'm irritated when a newbie posts a question, gets an answer, and never comes back--especially if the responder asked for more information. Andrea is an eager learner who is here all the time, and there is certainly nothing wrong with her board manners.

Andrea, new basal growth usually comes from the graft or crown, but occasionally from the lower canes in the absence of pruning. It's somewhat unusual, and I don't think there is anything you can do to make it happen. I just found shoots coming from a lower cane of Prospero, and, since that is unusual, it has me watching nervously for RRD symptoms, which you don't need to worry about.

No need to answer.

I was (obviously) hoping that I had found something to 'inspire' new growth on long bald canes....Oh well.

Maybe it's because I talk to that bush all the time and ask it to make new branches. That would be miraculous but probably not.

My new babies are all doing well.Firefighter has a million buds (yes, I have been called the hyperbole queen) and the color is gorgeous! Also, I have a number of buds on Francis Meilland. But they are slow to open. One that is just now beginning to open has been on the bush since I got it 12 days ago. It is the most beautiful pale pink and a long pointed bud.

I will send photos when more buds open. You know, I've never had a rose garden before (and as my son says, I'm older that dirt), I think I spend about 2 hours each day looking, talking to, and preening them. How could you spend 2 hrs a day on only 13 bushes???

This forum has helped me a lot and I am very happy to be part of it. Maybe some day I will know enough to actually help someone else.

andrea

I noticed that out here in So. California roses do have bare legs so the question for me is whether this is necessary or desirable? Roses can grow like weeds here and people don't prune and don't encourage basals. You see big tall bare legged roses with lots of blooms. I would suggest an alternative which is to plant the graft at the surface and mulch over and there will be plenty of basals and then the question will be whether to cut back those huge established canes sometimes completely in favor of new canes or whether to let the huge canes go and have a bare legged tree. Is all about pruning and what you want your roses to look like.

Henry,

I am in Northern Cal...Just outside SFO.

What I have inferred from many posts is that it is better not to shock the baby by severe pruning. And just let her (this bush is Pristine, a girl) grow as she will.

I would rather have healthy happy plants.

thanks, andrea

Henry, be careful planting the bud union deeply here. Some will go own root, which is not necessarily a good thing, depending upon the inherant vigor of the plant and its ability to produce a good root system. Much of the time, you will quickly end up with one or two cane wonders which refuse to rejuvenate themselves with new basals. I ran over fifteen hundred different roses through the old Newhall garden in the 18 years it existed. Many were own root I propagated. Quite a few were budded. It resided on a rather steep slope and there was erosion to contend with. MANY became planted too deeply over time and most which did suffered the same fate...rapid geriatric status with zero new basals. I constantly had to excavate crowns of the plants to keep them replenishing themselves. The same thing frequently resulted from carelessly placed, too deep mulch. Deep planting is a necessity in more extreme climates. The SoCal savannah to mid desert areas are not generally conducive to providing success with that method.

If the conditions permitting foliage to the ground exist (sufficient light, lack of disease, nothing eating it), you'll have leaves to the soil. If they don't, the plant isn't going to give it to you. Period. Kim

Andrea,

Thanks as well. I have always believed in severe pruning of established roses to encourage them to spread out with many canes. This was in Connecticut where old canes declined and you needed to have basals. In fact in cold zones you need to get rid of old woody canes and I think that for the good of the rose you should do it here as well..

Henry

Hey there Kim,

There are many words posted on this site, and once in a while 'a golden nugget of knowledge'. I have been told by the rosarian at Regan's nursery, that in our mild NorCal climate, a grafted rose should be planted ONLY UP TO the bud union. That only in colder climes should the union be buried. I didn't know why...Now I understand.

There are a number of you on this forum, (you know who you are!) that supply novices like myself with useful information for rearing lovely roses.

I should be retired already, but am not. I hope by the time I do (in approx 3 yrs) I will know enough to take care of these beauties and not have to 'pick your brains' constantly like I have been doing.

andrea

Henry,

I don't understand what you mean by 'old woody canes'.

My oldest rose bed is only a year old. Granted, some of the bushes are 5+ feet tall, but all of the canes (with the exception of the gnarled stubs at the bottom) on my bushes are green and quite alive. Do you mean that they should be severely pruned also at the beginning of our mild winter?

andrea

One-year-old canes still have green bark. At some later point they change color. Many roses will develop thicker gray bark with cracks in it. One of my roses has canes that turn black with age but stay smooth. Generally canes might be considered "old and woody" when they are 4+ years old. Some roses benefit from removing some of the oldest (4+) canes at the base at regular pruning time each year. This encourages the rose to produce new basal canes which may be more productive than old, woody canes.

One caveat, with grafted roses where the graft is exposed, it seems possible to "use up" the surface of the graft if you keep removing basal canes at the base regularly for a long time (i e 20 years).

This post was edited by michaelg on Mon, Jun 24, 13 at 17:25

Michael,

That makes sense, so I won't be doing any severe pruning for another 3 or 4 years....Works for me.

BUT NOW!!

Kim, this is for you (all my new buddies also):
From everything I've read on this forum, a rose bush in a warmer climate like Ca. should be planted with the bud union above ground. I found this on the Berkley Hort. Nursery web site:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO PLANT:
• In pots: Most roses need very large pots, at least 20" tall and deep. We recommend using varieties that don't grow more than 4'. Use a premium commercial potting soil, such as Whitney Farms, and you may mix in additional organic matter such as the Rose Planting Mix. Water well after planting, and be sure to fertilize once a month during growing season.
• In the ground: Dig a hole approximately 2' deep and 2' wide. Fill hole with water, then let it drain. Mix backfill with 1/2 Rose Planting Mix. Place the rose in the hole so that when you backfill the hole, the bud union will be covered by 2" of soil. We prefer this method for 4 reasons:
1) It discourages rootstock suckers.
2) It encourages grafted roses to form their own roots, which, in the long run, increase the plant's viability.
3) Roses seem to put out more canes when the graft is buried.
4) It looks more natural and aesthetically pleasing to have several canes coming out of the ground than to have a dried-out looking graft bulge above the soil's surface. Roses grown on their own roots should be planted at the same level they are in their nursery container. Water well after planting. Mulch with at least 2" of mulch to help conserve water and keep the weeds down.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Me again,
Please see what it says about "2 inches below
the soil"
And #2 about encouraging roots and viability.

According to what I've read from all (that I consider rose GURUs), this is wrong. Please explain why they think this way.

me again, andrea

Hi Andrea, you're going to find almost as many "theologies" about planting depth as you will pruning, fertilizing, spraying, disbudding, you name it! Mine is as follows:

"1) It discourages rootstock suckers."

If they say so. I have very seldom had ANY issues with root stock suckers unless there has been damage done to the feeder roots of the plant. Digging around too close to an established bush will break roots which often throw new top growth. Gophers gnawing through roots have caused the same. "Gardeners" who 'cultivate' rose beds CAUSE forests of Dr. Huey as well as encourage gall. Frequent, too-shallow watering also encourages all roots to move to the surface where you are much more likely to experience sucking from stocks and varieties alike. I haven't noticed buried bud unions "discouraging" suckers. I have experienced Lavender Pinocchio (awful, weak plant to begin with, even budded) getting buried, going own root and dying, leaving Dr. Huey growing beautifully around the dead own root plant. I don't buy # 1 based upon my three-plus decades of growing MANY roses in this climate.

As long as the stock is properly prepared; the scion is vigorous and growing well; no one "cultivates" around the bushes, damaging feeder roots to stimulate sucker growth; shovels remain out of the rose bed, preventing root damage from their use; gophers aren't an issue in the beds, causing root damage and encouraging stock suckering; water is applied properly so it flushes deeply through the soil instead of remaining too shallow so the roots grow TO the surface when suckers are more likely to occur, stock suckers have not been an real issue for me.

"2) It encourages grafted roses to form their own roots, which, in the long run, increase the plant's viability."

Really? That will depend upon many variables. MANY roses we've discussed on these forums are dawgs own root. Those should first be removed from their blanket statement of benefit. Add those which sucker madly. Do you want a rose to sucker all over your rose beds and lawn? Perhaps those types which you may have specifically obtained budded should also be removed? How about those whose genetics are simply not suitable for you soil and water types? Multiflora genes come to mind. They don't mix well with my soil and water, but put them on Huey roots and they don't become and remain albino due to chlorosis. I will agree that it MIGHT encourage some roses to form their own roots. The second part is a large, "it all depends". They presume all roses are good own root, in all places, which, as we have seen, is not true.

"3) Roses seem to put out more canes when the graft is buried."

Oh, for a time machine! Perhaps in the warmer nursery cans of rich soil compared to the cold, damp ground at Berkeley Hort. Nursery. I've been there and it is a gorgeous, interesting and fun nursery. I would LOVE to be able to snatch that person, drag them back in time to that Newhall canyon and SHOW them how in this climate and soil, what they advise resulted in one and two cane wonders which refused to produce new basals. Uncover the bud unions and magically, new basals!

"4) It looks more natural and aesthetically pleasing to have several canes coming out of the ground than to have a dried-out looking graft bulge above the soil's surface."

That is a statement of personal preference and not a horticultural benefit.

"Roses grown on their own roots should be planted at the same level they are in their nursery container."

Why? What is the difference between planting a budded plant two inches deeper so it has multiple canes protruding from the soil to encourage it to go own root and planting an own root plant two inches deeper to encourage it to develop multiple, own root plants? You can suffocate many plants by planting them too deeply or raising the soil level around them after they are established. What about those which don't go own root, remaining dependent upon their budded roots? New basals come from the bud union. Pushing it deeper into the soil reduces what stimulates it to produce new basals. If own root plants need to be planted at their original growing level, what is so different about budded plants?

Run your own experiment. Buy two, identical budded roses and plant one each way, following each style of advice for them. See which performs to your satisfaction. I honestly have not done that. I have witnessed what I've described and how the plants responded to being planted "properly". VERY seldom has being planted too deeply produced results I found beneficial. In fact, the only case which comes to mind was with the Harkness Hulthemia hybrid, Euphrates. Erosion buried the imported plant which responded by rooting from every cane. Instead of one, vigorous budded plant, I had MANY, smaller, smaller growing own root plants.

I can't explain why the person writing this thinks or thought that way. Just as I can't explain why someone in a climate not requiring it for winter protection, would advise pruning HTs to 18" every year. Most roses are so bloody persistent, they will live to spite you. But, they will probably not be as good as they COULD have been. Kim

This has become an interesting discussion about different planting practices. In Connecticut I had wonderful soil that you could plant the bud deep in but that is not the case here. Here I think you should plant the bud at the surface and mulch over and over and over. It will be best for the bud union and the soil will be built up as it was for me over many years in CT. I believe that here as there it will encourage many basals and spreading which is quite the opposite of the woody tree (albeit with many branches) which I most often see here. Roses are perennials so that tree will wear out. Even in warm climates perennials need to rejuvenate. Canes degenerate but just a little slower here in California than they did in Connecticut where winter and late freezes and canker had to be contended with. And BTW, always make a bowl with the graft at the bottom just covered ever so lightly and inspect the bud from time to time. Often the basals come from the bottom of the bud and they may grow laterally which is a good thing. And you can get a rootball off one or more of the established new canes below the soil line. Of course, all this is based in what happened in CT but I think that if you water, feed and build up the soil here there should be no problem having great roses.

Kim,

I know that I didn't say anything to have hit a nerve with you, but this article certainly did.

I would never have read as many word as you wrote (said with a smile) unless I was already of a mind that you certainly know 'of what you speak'.

This is a written forum, but if I had my choice, I would like to 'pick your brain' in person, i.e, by telephone or in person.

I listen to several experienced voices on this forum. Yours, of course, is one. Because of the 'good' information on it, I believe that I am nurturing 2 small but beautiful rose beds. My babies are all being handled just as several of you have suggested. And they are already thriving.

Please hang in there for novices like me.

I don't believe that a perfunctory thank you is necessary. I am sure that you already know that I appreciate all you write. If you ever get a chance to
visit, I would love to meet you.

andrea

Thank you, Andrea. Much appreciated. Should I make out of this basin, north, I'll keep the invitation in mind! Kim