This looks like a perfect illustration of the word "greenwashing." I guess people will never stop trying to figure out ways to waste money and energy in making a product that's already free and easy. I'm sorry if I come across as too brusque on this, but these con-jobs drive me crazy. And then there's this gem on their website:

"But backyard composting has drawbacks. The heap must be at least three feet (one meter) high to generate sufficient heat. A typical compost bin or compost tumbler is not big enough and so sufficient heat is never achieved. And if it is too big, oxygen will not penetrate. The compost must be turned periodically so the cold outer layer has a chance to get inside where it is warm. This is backbreaking and dirty work. Moisture level, acidity, and the carbon to nitrogen ratio must be carefully managed. In most climates, winter temperatures destroy the compost cultures. Most compost bins and compost tumblers are not attractive. Certain foods wastes such as meat, fish, and dairy products, have obvious health hazards and are not suitable for a home composting. You may be surprised to find seeds from a single discarded tomato or apple germinating all over your garden. Besides, not everyone has space for a compost heap. It is the same thing for worm composting and using a worm compost bin, which will be explained in better detail later on. "

I'm just not going to believe anything they say after reading that.

I saw that awhile back. Clever idea, especially the built in heater. I think it's cute for apartment dwellers with a few house plants and pots on the balcony. A good tool to promote thinking reduce/ reuse/ recycle.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.naturemill.com/

This thread had a few reviews from actual owners.

Lloyd

I think that it's great that people are trying to compost and put their waste to good use instead of adding to the landfills. I agree that saving kitchen scraps and trash items to use in an outside compost bin could be messy and unsightly. But what I can't understand is why anyone would be willing to waste money on gizmos and gadgets when it could easily be accomplished for next to nothing and still be neat and clean. Thinking and being green is a good thing, these days we all need to conserve, recycle and think about the environment we live in. But given that being green is the current trend, I can guarantee you that there are people out there that are willing to part unknowing people from their money. Composting waste is not a difficult concept, nature does most of the work for you.

Now "lizziem" I don't understand, in your other thread on this topic I got the impression that you were just looking for something to collect your waste that would keep the critters out. I assumed, (not a good idea), that you would just use this to store this waste until you took it out to your compost bin or pile outside, (I think that most responders saw it that way). In fact the product you were looking at is just an expensive bucket. In this thread you list an even more expensive product that is a full-on composter as opposed to something that you temporarily store your waste until you take it outside. So I have to ask, do you have an outdoor compost bin or pile? If not the above product may work for you but it's an aweful lot of money to spend on something to accomplish what you could do outside very inexpensively. Below is one of my compost bins. Do you know what it cost to build, next to nothing.

Greg
Southern Nevada

{{gwi:303004}}

If an apartment dweller wants to compost, they might have to use an indoor compost device, if they live on an upper floor. Some of these machines are able to stir and heat the compost, which I'm sure helps to keep the process going. Other than cost, the main problem is odor. Kitchen and table waste can be pretty rich, that is, high in nitrogen. You might be able to control the odor with an addition of sawdust, or something similar. Or, you might not...

Unless they've got a container garden, most apartment dwellers don't need compost anyway. Just chuck it and let the local landfill have the methane. Many landfills are tapping that methane for energy now, including the one near my parents in Alabama. The electricity used by these things counter-balances any benefits of keeping it out of the landfill.

The efficiency of methane recovery from landfills can vary greatly. While it may be a good idea to capture the methane, I think it would be better yet not to generate it if one doesn't have to.

Lloyd

Methane one way, CO2 from coal-fired plants another. The $300 could be much better spent on other ways to reduce one's greenhouse gas footprint, if that's the aim.

Not all electricity is generated by coal.

CO2 is much less potent GHG than methane.

It's their money.

Lloyd

We all find ways to spend our "disposable" income. Nobody's business how we do it. The OP could spend that on a TV or computer or put it toward an expensive car. Not my business. And we're all using electricity by playing on the website so I'm not going to throw stones.

That said, I wouldn't spend that much to buy it, but I sure would like to see it in action. Maybe you guys could take up a collection and buy me one!!!

Karen

Karen wrote:

"We all find ways to spend our "disposable" income. Nobody's business how we do it. The OP could spend that on a TV or computer or put it toward an expensive car. Not my business. And we're all using electricity by playing on the website so I'm not going to throw stones."

This is so very true and I agree. However, when you come to a public forum asking for opinions and advice you're going to get them.

I'm so poor I can't pay attention so I'm sorry but I can't contribute to the collection. (:

Greg
Southern Nevada

It's a free country so people can buy whatever they want, but I do get concerned about the "Plow & Hearth" buy-a-gadget-for-everything mentality. The apartment dweller is probably the best market for this thing. The above quote is full of bogus info about backyard composting. I just hope people with yards and space don't think they need one.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned worms as an alternative to the Nature Mill. I don't do worms so I was hoping for someone who is into them to bring it up. Now some people have an aversion to worms and wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole (literally) so that may be an issue as well.

I can envision elderly people or some people with certain disabilities who are not able to conventionally compost using a Nature Mill.

I've never seen a Nature Mill so I am unable to comment on their efficiency one way or the other. Like Karen, if someone were to give me one to try, I'd give it a shot just because I'm curious.

Lloyd

Disclaimer: No coal was burnt to generate the electricity consumed by the originator whilst compiling, editing or posting this comment.

"Not all electricity is generated by coal.

CO2 is much less potent GHG than methane."

1) Over 72% of it in the U.S. is generated by burning fossil fuels. Another 19% comes from nuclear plants, which some people also find objectionable, and aren't renewable.

2) This is a complicated question. Reducing methane pollution to the atmosphere is definitely a step in the right direction. Most landfills that urban apartment dwellers' garbage goes to are required to capture landfill gas and flare it or generate electricity with it. Sure, collection efficiency varies. But this all ignores the fact that this gadget requires all these urbanites to come up with lots and lots of browns to mix in with their overwhelmingly green stream. It looks like many of the owners are adding sawdust pellets (bought) or wood shavings (bought) to these machines, with no thought about how they were made from trees and trucked into the city.

And then there are cheaper, better ways to keep it out of the landfill than this thing, like worm bins, which are fantastic for this situation. The company deals with that with this little nugget of fear-mongering:

"And of course, there is always the fear of worms getting looseÂwhether from the quest for more food, or inadvertent encounters with children or pets. For some, the very idea of squirmy little critters is simply not acceptable. "

Also, where the heck are they going to put all this compost they're making? Back in the trash?

"It's their money. "

I don't believe I've said it's not. But if I see a scam, I'm going to holler about it.

"I'm surprised no one has mentioned worms as an alternative to the Nature Mill. I don't do worms so I was hoping for someone who is into them to bring it up. Now some people have an aversion to worms and wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole (literally) so that may be an issue as well."

I had this thread open for an hour without refreshing, so I didn't see this before submitting my post. Needless to say I agree about the worms.

phytolacca wrote:

"Also, where the heck are they going to put all this compost they're making? Back in the trash?"

A very good question and one I was more or less alluding to in an earlier post above. It would be great if the OP would return and clear-up some questions that have been asked. Providing a little more information would certainly be helpful to those whom are trying to answer their question/s.

Greg
Southern Nevada

"Over 72% of it in the U.S. is generated by burning fossil fuels."

This no doubt includes natural gas?

"adding sawdust pellets (bought) or wood shavings (bought) to these machines, with no thought about how they were made from trees and trucked into the city."

Some pellets are made from waste generated from other processes and some shavings are from the recycling of materials such as pallets. Mentioning trucking, garbage is often hauled many, many miles for disposal into a landfill. Reducing weight and volume of materials by 50% through composting before throwing into a landfill would technically reduce the number of trucks travelling to the landfill by the same 50% and help reduce landfill methane generation.

"Most landfills that urban apartment dwellers' garbage goes to are required to capture landfill gas and flare it or generate electricity with it."

Not one landfill in my province has a methane recovery/flaring system in place and we have lots of apartments. And for those landfills that do have a recovery system, I have not heard of one single landfill that has a 100% recovery rate. I've only seen a few studies that range anywhere from 35% to 90% efficiency in capturing the gas. Given that methane is more than 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide, 35% is pretty darn poor. Maybe methane recovery is one of them "greenwashing" scams mentioned earlier, designed to just make people feel better while not really doing much in the big picture.

I'm not trying to change anyones mind, I'm just pointing out that there is no "one size fits all" generalization to cover all situations and not everything is what it seems to be. Give people accurate information and let them make up their own minds as to what they want to do.

Lloyd

"Some pellets are made from waste generated from other processes and some shavings are from the recycling of materials such as pallets."

And a lot aren't. And most of that wood is usable in generating electricity or making OSB and paper.

"Mentioning trucking, garbage is often hauled many, many miles for disposal into a landfill. Reducing weight and volume of materials by 50% through composting before throwing into a landfill would technically reduce the number of trucks traveling to the landfill by the same 50% and help reduce landfill methane generation. "

Ok, let's say you reduce the weight traveling to the landfill by 50%. But you had truck in wood pellets equivalent 300% of the original weight to get that reduction. And those pellets probably came from a longer distance than the stuff going to the landfill. That's making things worse, not better.

35% collection efficiency is not very good and definitely below average, and whatever system got that number shouldn't be repeated elsewhere. Fortunately, from what I've seen searching the internet the landfill engineers out there are busy doing what engineers do: studying what works and what doesn't, and incorporating the lessons into future designs. Other systems are recovering over 90%, and those are the ones being emulated.

I think we can agree on the un-usefulness of this thing for anybody who has enough space to have a compost pile or tumbler or bins. Even if one is completely incapable of turning a compost pile, their kitchen scraps can be piled up one batch at a time, with accompanying browns, in a setup that keeps material out of the landfill and doesn't cost a dime to buy and uses no electricity.

As for apartment dwellers, it just can't beat a worm bin.

I don't know where you are getting the 300% from and you are not accounting for methane being more than 20 times worse than CO2.

I have difficulty accepting your premises.

Lloyd

All this talk about methane being terrible has me feeling guilty. I love hot peppers and I love beer. Farting is a sport ... or should be. LOL

To relieve my guilt, I have a large solar system that generates on balance over a year more then I need so I have a negative footprint if you actually believe the global warming bit.

Composting in any form is pumping CO2 into the air. I'm glad that at least I know that CO2 is NOT a toxic gas but one of the most important elements to sustain life. Oxygen is no more important then CO2. If either one was missing the game of life is over.

The Earth itself "farts" more methane then humans could ever produce combining ALL their activities hour by hour, day by day, month by month ... well, you get the picture. The Earth even barfs out oil (tar balls) all by its self. Don't get caught up in the politics of "Saving the Earth" because they are designed to lighten your wallet and remove your Constitutional rights.

I'm a composting nut and always have been. I have always had a high end chipper shredder to take on whatever I can get to rip it down to great compost material. If I was trapped in some apartment, I would probably buy that gadget just to get my fix in making dirt since I seem to get more satisfaction from making the dirt then growing the veggies! Ya, I'm a sicko.

"I don't know where you are getting the 300% from and you are not accounting for methane being more than 20 times worse than CO2."

I may have overestimated, or maybe not. The waste stream into this thing from an apartment dweller will be nearly all greens. I figure on it needing about three times as much browns to go in it as greens, and having all the browns trucked in, because anybody shelling out $300 for the "convenience" will probably buy their browns, too.

There's a lot not being accounted for, like the embodied energy in the machine itself, and finding a place to put the compost this generates. That methane is 20 times worse may not be relevant if we're talking about a small amount of methane and a large amount of money and fossil fuel spent to prevent its formation.

"I have difficulty accepting your premises."
I'm sorry for your difficulty, Lloyd. But I have just developed a machine that can help-- it's a bargain at only $299.99. That's U.S. dollars-- I don't want no Loonies.

--Jason

"I may have overestimated

On that, I agree wholeheartedly!

Lloyd

Uh, guys, we don't know that the OP even lives in apartment. She hasn't returned to the thread. I assume that lizzie has been scared off by all the negative comments.

It's a shame, there's so much great information available on this forum. But many GW members on other forums are afraid to visit here and ask questions because of all the negativity, ridicule, and attack mentality.

When I refer people here I always warn them not to be intimidated. But sadly, only the strong survive.

Karen

thank you for your thoughts. im just desperate to try something, because the old bucket thing hasnt been working too well.

yes, i have a nice pallet composter out back. i took a course on composting quite a few years back that the province was giving. it turned out to be this intense 40 hour thing, but i really did learn alot. what bothered me was the toxic run off they spoke of. that all that wonderful organic material would mix up with just a little bit of battery acid or mr kleen or something toxic and the whole darn thing would become toxic. that really bothered me, thus, i worry about every crumb and drop.

i know there are simple ways to do things and complex ways to do things. i know there are cheap ways and expensive ways. some people drive beaters some driver beemers - its personal. im so tired of the mess and critters and with a new reno i want to do something drastic to change the messy and dirty way we were collecting our compost. the 5 gallon kitty litter pail just isnt working for us.

worms. yes, i have a gazillion red wigglers in my pallot pile outside. every fall i bring a handful in and keep them through the winter. (just incase something kills them off over the winter i will have a big plate full of them again in spring) one year in the handful i had mosquito larvie and we had skits hatching all year! my small worm bin sure wasnt enough for our family, though i have seen the worm bins available for larger applications. i guess i have just been thinking of something really simple and easy and ... i dont know just easy, it seems like life is just going crazy this summer and i need simple in my life.

again, thanks so much for your imput, i do love this site and i have learned so much over the years. even though i havent posted much in the past few years, i do lurk and see what folks are saying.

lizziem - Thank you for retuning and clearing things up. For myself and my responses: I guess pehaps a few may have taken them to be brusque and maybe they were. It's just that I've seen where so many people have come to the forums, ask a question, then disappear never to be seen again after people have taken the time to respond.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do with your waste material from the kitchen.

Greg
Southern Nevada

"I assume that lizzie has been scared off by all the negative comments."

It sure seemed like her point in posting was to get discussion of the gadget, both of the potential benefits and drawbacks. I think we did that quite well, and no one on this thread attacked her in any way.

I for one agree that a better way of handling kitchen waste would be nice for us up here in the frozen north. I have worms and while summer composting with them is great. Winter In a house at 65-68 Fahrenheit or a 40 degree basement well the worms are not active and just can't keep up. Remember I could not even blow a path to the outside compost last winter the snow was too deep for my blower. So this thing looks quite good to me. The capacity does look to small, on you tube day three and it was full. What do you do the rest of the two weeks while you are waiting for it to finish? Perhaps you need more than one?

50% of the electricity used to make this post came from renewable resources. Most of it wind.

Curt