I'm completely organic, btw. I have well composted rabbit stock to use, too. I keep forgetting about that. What's the best way to utilize the rabbit stock in the garden? Before or after a freeze? Worked in?

If you do not have perennial weeds, this is a good application for wood chips. They will smother the seeded weeds for two years, and slowly fertilize the soil. After the first year, you ought to add only nitrogen. But I worry that spreading the chips on such a large area will be a lot of work for you.

With the chips on the ground, you can only plant large seeded veggies, such a beans, garlic, or potatoes, or seedlings. You can not direct seed until the chips have decayed. Alternatively, you can dig small pockets in the chips, fill them with fine soil, and seed the pocket. This method does not allow you to grow carrots, or lettuce, directly. The soil will warm more slowly. But it will save you so much weeding and watering. If you have perennial weeds (e.g. brambles), lay down cardboard on top of the brambles, then cover with chips. 6 to 12 inches of chips are recommended, 12 inches of chips turning into 1 inch of soil.

Wow. This is very helpful, glib. I see now my lack of experience with chips is why I was "lost". What you write makes good sense.

The local business will load the back end of my truck for a nominal charge and my husband and kids can help spread it around. It's the long haul that is up to me.

If there's a weed, I've got it including that d*mned creeping charlie which flourished in the drought that recently blazed through.

Yet, I'm just now studying the local plant life and determining the beneficial for gardening but, more importantly, for holistic health. Even Amaranth is looking pretty good given its beneficial uses like making Amaranth bread. I'm growing (eh hem) some "stuff" this winter for bread next year.

I forgot about cardboard even though I JUST mentioned it on another post! The locals swear by it. Hard to keep it down in our weather, but enough chips would do the trick.

I have a few raised beds elsewhere I can plant the tender varieties. I had no clue what could be planted under those chips. I thank you for that.

Chips, it is. I'll set a section of garden that I can work in a reasonable amount of time for spring. I'll smother the rest in chips and let it work in. Maybe I'll boost it with microbial fertilizer and let the bugs roam under it instead of the garden in spring.

When I think adding chips to the soil, I'm really thinking compost and beneficial microbes. It wouldn't be unlike me to overdo things.

Can I put the rabbit stock in there with the chips or is that over kill? I intentionally buy alfalfa hay in compacted bales that produces much in the way of powdered alfalfa. Nitrogen!

I'm too poor to be stringent on everything coming in being absolutely organic. I'm certain some of the wood chips contain the latest menu of herbicides and diseases. Hopefully, I can keep a healthy soil balance to fight off diseases and absorb the non organic materials.

Yet, this is a rural area. Most will be from wild brush piles and regular pruning.

Okay, I think I've talked myself into it.

Everywhere I have been in Oklahoma I found clay soil and that means you will need lots of organic matter in that soil. At some time in the future wood chips will be a fairly good choice for that clay, once some organic matter is worked into the soil. Cover crops are one means of doing that and they should not be "pulled" out but rather cut down and left to enrich the soil. Here, in Michigan, it is not yet time to plant cover crops especially since most of the garden is still producing quite well.
Wood chips, while quite good as mulches, can when placed on un amended clay soils hold too much moisture and make that clay soil more water logged than normal, and unless you have a good and active Soil Food Web they may not make enough difference in that soil to be worthwhile.
Are the leaves form deciduous trees available? Those would be much better for the clay soil than wood chips at this time.

I would be collecting leaves and grass clippings and whatever else you can find, as much as you can carry. Layer it on the soil now, and cover with wood chips. Start with a limited area first and when you get a few inches of organic matter, lay the chips on top to keep the winter winds from blowing the leaves everywhere. Move on to the next section until you run out of organics or it gets too cold to work this winter. If you have a coffee shop or a juice bar/organic restaurant, you can get stuff all winter. Keep a pile of those wood chips handy to layer on top.

You'll need a lot of stuff for 200x200. You might want to start with half or 1/4 of that the first year.

The worms and microbes will work that stuff in and by spring you can plant through it. You could do this for several years and have great soil w/o tilling, or till now and then and speed up the process.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Kimmsr, I'm very fortunate. The soil is black. The city worked outside the fence line last year. It's red there. I'm also fortunate that it is not completely "gumbo". We've heard it was a garden a long time ago. The previous tenants never planted a thing. It just sat there with natural ground cover.

It responds well to "waking up" with life. I think the answer has been slooooowww... with moisturizing giving air time to penetrate. It's a huge reason why I don't want to till. Tilling turns the topsoil into sand and the clay hardens.

I have an old compost pile that is well done from wood scrap from the yard and I put as much of that in there as possible. But it's not enough.

My biggest helpers are the small animals -snakes, salamanders, frogs and any of the small burrowing type of animals. When I wake up the rest, they come right along. The hard part is keeping it stimulated and keeping it WET.

For as big of an area as I need, that's my dilemma

tox,
My best soil, that I used in my planter is actually leaf mold gathered from the fence line where volunteer sweet pea vines flourish. So that makes sense. I've considered a leaf mold compost, but It's troublesome with our wind. i have some old fencing material that I put off wrangling with for a leaf mold pile. Perhaps I should reconsider.

The biggest problem with leaves? There isn't any. We should have some this fall. In fact, some turned this last week from the cooler temps and dropped to the ground. I remember being relieved because all the trees defoliated early every summer over the last couple years because of the drought. In fact, many of the trees have died and some are struggling including the heat-loving pecans trees. This problem is so bad I allowed the saplings to grow and destroy the fence fearing I would lose all my mature trees and need replaced!

After the leaves fell, the drought almost instantly vaporized them into the top soil. It was quite stunning. The grass and native plants benefited so the spring was very beautiful with wild flowers but brief. Grape hyacinths were everywhere.

I was, literally, watching my yard turn into a desert until this year where we received record rain fall (which is why I'm so eager to get it topped now.)

A lot of natives haul in dirt, manures and mushroom compost. THEN, they suggest "mulch, mulch, mulch". I just cannot afford it.

I swear, if you can garden in Oklahoma, you can garden anywhere.

When I spent time in NC, my friends seemed too lazy to do a garden. With exception to the rocky terrain I was horrified anyone would not be motivated to grow in that beautiful black soil. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. They have their problems, too, but they don't have wicked weather. They went on about "snow this" and "the snow!" So, I waited atop that mountain. The snow came. I was highly disappointed. I'd sit out on the porch when the wind picked up to 45 mph and think "Ahhh, nice weather." while everyone else was hiding in doors. Piece of cake LOL

Did you know they sell wind chimes here? Yeah. It's strange they sell them. They don't go outside, but indoors.

Everything in our yards must be moveable, retractable or permanently fixed to the ground or a solidified structure. LOL
Oklahoma is WICKED, monn.

On the plus side, a good storm regenerates the plants and stimulates growth by 1-2" overnight. It's weird!

The best solution? A back hoe and putting in hugulkulture beds. I put one under my planter up front. In Spring 2011. Plants there survived the drought. I watered only twice. Plants survived all the bugs except grasshoppers and continually offer volunteers. Standing alone, it is it's own little micro climate that seems to defy everything.

Now, you see why I'm so perplexed. If there was some way I could do it, I'd rent a backhoe in spring and have at it with all hugulkulture. But that requires grading all around. I cannot afford a surveyor and I can't afford the city coming down my back. I'm still considering it.
hahaha

Maybe I should just move. LOL

Coupe, God put Oklahoma where it is so that if them furners from up North get hankerings about coming to Texas,before they make it across Oklahoma they turn around and go back home. If the stickers,rattlesnakes,bitting bugs,twisters, thorns,blowing sand,flash floods,freezing rain one day and triple digit heat the next doesn't turn them back, the roads will blow out all thier tires. Who can blame them since the closer you get to Red River the thicker the Okies get. LOL

Around here, you can talk to a tree company and get free chips. Not many do any more, but there are still those who prefer to dump the chips immediately rather than accumulating and re-selling them. But they will come when they want and dump. My wife is profoundly unhappy when she comes home and has to park in the street, because of the 30 cubic yards of chips in the driveway. With one foot of the stuff, your fertilizer needs are satisfied for a long time, except nitrogen, so together with this, buy a 50 lbs bag of urea.

Chick - (hope you're not offended by that). I'm with glib all the way. But you mentioned you have rabbit stuff and use alfalfa. That will provide your N source. My recommendation is to first unload any compost you have directly on the soil. Use what you have, don't worry about not enough, just sprinkle it as evenly as you can. Next wood chips. Next alfalfa and rabbit stuff. The ideal ratio for fresh wood chips would be 10 lb of N per 1000 lbs of wood chips. One thousand pounds of wood chips should be about 2 -2.5 yards. That would cover about 300-350 sq feet @ a 1" depth. I suspect you won't have enough of either rabbit stuff or alfalfa to cover up your 40,000 sq feet to get enough N, and it should be added evenly over about 6-12 months anyway, so just apply it as evenly as you can over the top. If you come back with an update of the depth of your wood chips over what area, I can tell you how much of several N sources would be ideal. Urea (45-0-0) is a great option, and it's about the best N-bang for the buck.

Keeping the top evenly moist over the entire period will hasten the decomposition - it will allow the microbes and invertebrates to move up higher - dry is the stopper. I suspect you'll be really impressed with what you have year from now.

200X200 works out to 1500 cubic yards of wood chips for one foot depth! That is 50 loads. But if you do not have enough, I think it is better to mulch deeply part of the garden, then use cardboard elsewhere.

klem

Thanks for that! I got a belly laugh. haha

________________________________________________

glib;

Urea. Check.

Yeah, they're still free if I go up and get them. They'll load it for a nominal charge. I'll make several trips and get to know them better. I'll let them know they can access my yard easily. Maybe they'll take the bait. I don't think I'm alone in my area, so we'll see. At least I can get some free, if I need. Considering your last post, this is probably something I should focus really hard... would be easier to convince them to come and dump (at least once) LOL

________________________________________________

TXEB;

Not offended at all. Thank you for those details.

I was wondering about the rabbit stock and alfalfa. The alfalfa hay isn't cheap but it's so versatile given my garden needs. You know, I tried switching the bunnies to Timothy hay like everyone suggests. I lost 2 rabbits. So alfalfa, it is. I use a lot of powdered alfalfa from the pellets for my worm bin too. Bodacious stuff when combined with molasses and worm poop. Probably not completely organic, but I'll deal.

Is there a certain time the rabbit poo is most beneficial? I mean regarding decomposition. Is it better to apply fresh or possible or well-composted?

Right now I have a lot well composted. I haven't put most of it on, because I don't know how to do it best. You're right about not having enough rabbit stock.

"If you come back with an update of the depth of your wood chips over what area, I can tell you how much of several N sources would be ideal. Urea (45-0-0) is a great option, and it's about the best N-bang for the buck. "

I will do just that as best I can. When I wrote this post, money seemed dismal. I just picked up a copywriting gig that will last all winter. I'll be able to splurge a bit on extras!

Moist. Got it. I've recently captured about 700 gallons of rainwater. Should be sufficient until the first freeze.

________________________________

Thank you for your help. Here's a picture. It's only a portion of the area of concern. It was taken some time ago. Since that time the drought blazed through.

I had a pottager garden in mind. Worthless venture for Oklahoma. I'll be putting pretty gardens up around the house for tender veggies and stuff.

I will have vegetable garden beds all over the place when I'm done. The larger section is for production foods like corn, grains and bulk legumes and veggies.

Thank you for your help!

I'll need to do something about erosion... eventually.

Garden in Back Yard

Yep, you have your work cut out for you. A question - do you intend to do all of the 200 x 200 area at once, or is this a project over a several years? My calculation is pretty close to glib's. By pickup truck alone you're talking ~ 400 loads.

Any compost you have should go directly on the soil. Then comes your mulch cover. The basic idea is to do large-scale sheet composting over the area you want to improve/amend. Using wood chips you have a very high C material. To get that to decompose quickly you need to balance that with an appropriate amount of N. The high N can be uncomposted rabbit pellets, kitchen produce trim, alfalfa, bloodmeal (a bit expensive) urea, etc. It will help if you can add it in a crude layered fashion as the wood chips build, say in 2"-4" lifts, or mix most of it in through the depth. Then add the final amount, maybe 10-20 %, over the top. It will percolate down through the chips with rainfall and time, but you'll have better retention and utilization if it is incorporated through the depth.

TXEB

I don't think I had a good perspective on the size of the loads and scope of work. Our truck being small adds another hurdle.

Looks like I've no choice. Not unreasonable to make at least one load a week.

I need the space, but I could always just plant some stupid okra, hearty legumes ... sunflowers...anything to help work the soil until I get to covering it up.

My back up for veggies can include small plots elsewhere in micro climates. My first load of chips, compost and nitro will be for these, I suppose, after coming to perspective. These areas have good soil from their natural habitat and only need refreshing with good techniques.

I'm starting to look back into hot composting. I think I can have my son help me turn it. I remember when I hot composted it provided a much greater quantity of material than anything. it seems to help stabilize the garden soil quickly versus dumping compost in and letting the microbes and higher life forms fight over it.

Until now, I've never been able to purchase anything for the garden. For crying out loud, I couldn't even afford the recommended $4 bag of nitrogen pursuant to the Oklahoma State University's recommendations.

Of course, I worked around that. Ergo, vermicompost and cardboard. Now I have 25 lbs of worms constantly pooping safe clean fertilizer. Now, I only understand organic gardening! ha!

Now, I cannot bear the thought of tilling.

A leaf mold bin. I can have the kids help load the leaves into a garbage can. Then apply the weed eater so my bin(s) need not be too big.

See the front planters? All yard dirt. Only thing purchased to add was some cans of fish for fertilizer. That cool corner planter is atop hugulkulture. It will grow ANYTHING.

> Tada

I really appreciate your help. You guys are awesome. The last time visited I was asking about putting compost directly over the garden plot. My back was giving me fits, so I was looking for alternatives. Wasn't long after that I had to abandon everything. Surgery worked wonders.

Blessings

TXEB? Do you have a blog or website?

We're alike in our limited ability & low budget. I have big ideas to garden, but after illness garden smarter nowadays rather than harder. At least in theory.

Try to focus on the basics...
... build soil where actual plants will go
rake soil up to make mounded beds & paths will be lower then
don't walk on the mounded beds & you won't have to till them

cover paths with the wood chips (eventually they decompose & you can rake them back on top of mounds)

cardboard or newspaper over any weedy areas then with your compost (plus alfalfa & rabbit manure) on planting beds & wood chips on paths

If you end up with a lot of material you can "fill" the paths with the wood chips inbetween the mounded raised beds. I've done that inbetween some areas on a slope where we built it up next to our gravel driveway. Soaker hoses on top of the mounds & used cut wire coat hangers to hold in place. Add Y connectors to soakers, so I can turn on one at a time with hose to faucet.

In another garden at our camp we divided the raised beds into 2' planting beds with a 2' path between since they were 6' wide & much too wide to reach across for us much less children. Wood chips are still there 2 years later though have sunk down. Top isn't composted and no mixing into the soil on sides. We laid soaker hoses then covered those beds with landscape fabric & cut holes for plants. Kept the hole area covered with mulch. Seed bank of weeds was extremely high, so that was workable for us with limited time there. Have planted 2 years in the holes & mulched. Will try to get a 2nd year out of that same set up as mostly a display garden in full public view & much easier for us to manage with our other jobs at camp. I spent less than 1 hour a week there once planted during growing season only. More time when planting. After mulching in fall leave until early spring before weather warms to be sure weeds aren't reestablished. If weeds, remove perennial & add more mulch sometimes more newspaper, then mulch

plant wide rows rather than single rows
seems like it takes as much time to prep wide rows as singles & you get about 4x the plants in the same space
interplant short season crops with longer time in the ground as well as root crops with above ground (lettuces with onions, cabbages with radish, carrots with radish or broccoli)

Square foot gardening (SFG) has planting suggestions for how to plant what crops in a single square foot of soil. Easy for kids to help plant as you poke with fingers after you have your square foot areas marked. Also easy for busy people. Just plant when you can & easy to get back to plant another square instead of a whole row.

SFG method says one 4' x 4' square per person for eating fresh & plant more area if preserving. Maybe even divide garden up into these 4'x 4' squares & let each family member tend that area. Cover the rest with cardboard plus the wood chips & let it be. Mow the outer area to keep weeds at bay. The weeds do blow in. If the creeping charlie comes in from the surrounding grassy area have family cut in with the shovel to make an edge & then at 45 degree again for a trench. Weeds will be easier to pull if they cross that trench & easily spotted. Drag a hole through the trench at an angle from standing position 2x in growing season -- as early in spring as you can while daffodils are still blooming and again in mid summer. Should be fine in fall, but could do again.

Hope that helps,
Corrine

Awesome suggestions. Why had I not thought of divvying up the responsibility to the kids?

there's a little trouble with the SQ measurements. I'm uncertain whether it's the clayish soil or the weather or both. Of course, my goal is to have the best soil so I can utilize less space.

For now, I'm finding I need A LOT of room for their roots.

The mounds you speak of? I did that. I brought in the good top soil and mounded it giving more room for the roots. I planted gobs of tomato plants of various breeds and just a couple cherry tomatoes.

That year I ended up with several hundred cherry-sized tomatoes from beef steak to whatever. Tasted good, though.

I think it was a water issue, but I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think it was several issues because even my sunflowers didn't get but 2' tall.

for the best options given my soil... And, by golly, I just realized I can afford to have testing done this fall. Yippee! >>> but the best is to get that clay softened down below. It's a good dark brown. I just know it is loaded with minerals.

After a couple of heavy compost piles, I see it is possible.

Ergo, piling on things seems to work well. remember getting a shovel in the ground or moving dirt around isn't easy for me... so piling is better.

I like your suggestions. I'm going to use them even on a small scale and keep in mind the mounding issue for the roots.

I'm looking forward to the chips and eliminating those darned muddy walk ways.

Corrine;

I may need to retrace my convo on why those mounds didn't work and so much "room" is needed to grow.

I think I may have a nematode problem! After looking at my notes and comparing the behavior of various plants. It seems real.

I'm not certain how wood spells out in compost except that described above for wood chips. I had an old wonderful compost pile section (about 4' x 4') I fired up 3 years ago and kept it going until mid 2011

Over time my husband put fallen tree limbs in it as well as some scrap (untreated) plywood that is decomposing.

Underneath what he put is great soil. It butts up against a sugarberry tree so I figure clearing it and planting in it is a waste of time (plus too much shade).

So, not sure if I should just dig it up and spread it on other areas?

This is it in spring of 2011 before my back went out. Weeds have overgrown on the exterior and I'm certain tree roots are abundant. As you can probably tell from the pic, it had a lot of wood to begin with.

Compost Bin

For get that link. Here's a recent

I'll pull up the debris and dig out the good soil.

ChickenCoupe ... 200x200 is a HUGE area.

Look at a few factors:

It's better to do a small area thoroughly than skimp over a larger area. Concentrate the compost where you are growing the most demanding things, and the plants you want the most. Let the rest of the plants be sacrificial ground breakers or "don't cares".

The idea of planting deep-rooted plants like okra is good. I dug holes with a pickaxe into my packed desert dirt and planted okra, and mulched them heavily with wood chips ... I can dig anywhere in that area now, because several generations of okra have been grown and cut off at the ground level, leaving their roots to decay in the ground.

The idea of mounding the beds, and spreading thick wood chips on the paths is excellent. Put cardboard or several layers of newspaper under the chips and your weed problem will lessen.

Definitely get the children involved. I was weeding gardens when I was small, because it was a major part of pour food supply. Maybe have the kids grow one thing they really want (with your advice if they want) and care for something for the whole family under your supervision.

You don't explain what the purpose of the garden is: Daily fresh veggies? Canning and preserving?

===========
I would start by laying out the beds with stakes and strings - as wide as you can work from both sides - and the paths between them. Get your work areas planned out. Don't make the beds too long or you will start making paths across them: 4x16 to 20 is plenty long.

Start with one bed area, the one closest to the house and the water supply, cover it with newspaper or cardboard, pile on compost, rabbit manure and wood chips and top it with dirt from the path.

Cover the path area with a much thicker layer of cardboard and wood chips.

Go on to the next one ... keep going whenever supplies, health and weather permits.

By spring, the first beds should be ready to plant. Just dig down and plant. Sitting all winter with the snow, temp changes and rain will break down the materials enough.

Plant things that can stand the unimproved soil in the unimproved beds, mulch well and water them.

Spoiled hay would be still high nutrient for your garden purposes - it's not suitable for livestock because it got wet and moldy (pre-composted!)
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The erosion is fairly easy to deal with. Permeable dams in the small eroded channels will slow water flow and the dirt will fall out of the water stream. It can be something as simple as a burlap roll filled with straw, or as permanent as a wire cage full of rocks ... depends on the gully size.

Woven twig barriers placed a few inches apart every couple of yards slow the flow.

Like this, but smaller: http://www.pinterest.com/pin/210754457533466059/

Start upstream and when you get some dirt built up, plant something that will send down a big root system.

Lazygardens

You have a heart like mine. I have some poplar trees I will coppice next spring. I can't kill the stuff, so I'm planning on using them. And I was wondering if they'd do okay for that purpose!! If we till that soil on that slope, I need to do something to keep that soil there.

I am, literally, headed out the door to submit my soil samples and I was looking to see what TEXB had recommended I test for.

I have bookmarked this discussion because it has so much useful information and the area is so big I can probably use everything suggested at one place or another.

I've come to realize I can only till up a bulk of it to be decent to plant next year. The largest portions will be:

Corn 200 (for seed)
Garbanzo Beans (around 45 plants)
Sesame Seeds (not sure how many, yet)

For those, it is new ground and I'll be tilling. I suppose I'll be willing to utilize some chemical nitrogen but I don't want to!

The rest is work in progress.. small patches here and there where steadily built up organic matter over the last few years. I guess this is where my tenders and heavy feeders will be: tomatoes, cauliflower, broccoli.. yada yada

I'm not even touching on the planters and sections in the front yard. Wheat growing there now. It's awesome.

I'll get separate testing for those as time and money permits, but I fertilize those with worm tea and that usually takes care of most. I need only continue amending the clay and burning up new compost.

Okra loves it here (where does it not?) and with you encouraging me growing it, looks like that's the best option outside of sunflowers in the empty spaces. I can plant those, too.

Im a gonna crowd this puppy, get it active!

Soil sampling revealed most excellent soil nutrients (for clay). I've managed to remove grass and weeds on a large section covering it with manure, compost and cardboard and watering occasionally.

Soil mounding in a different area has proven beneficial (as suggested above). I build them over compost piles

Started leaf composting since we actually have leaves this year.

Next year's garden will be mostly for vegetable seed and storage. I'll plant those in the best worked plots leaving the rest for chance and soil-building while I make more beds with various composts.

This post has been extremely helpful. I return to it from time to time to review. I've used everyone's suggestions if only in part.