white flower

Oakenlore, welcome to the Trees Forum, the flower looks to me like Common Elder Sambucus nigra Ours bloom in June, perhaps yours are later.
Take care when cutting this plant, witches are known to inhabit elders. :)

Thank you for your response, sam_md. So would you then consider this tree an elder? It is positively uncanny that you should broach the element of magick. As, for the purpose of inquiry, I broke a small rod from this tree, and twisted, I was aghast when I heard it moan, and I am sure of it. You are welcome to your belief as you peruse this.

Thanks again.

Here is another picture to be sure.

If that's an elder, then......I don't know anything about elders. Around here, they are shrubs. Sometimes quite large shrubs, and a handsome plant to boot, but nothing whatsoever like the tree in that picture.

+oM

'...Mostly the Elder grows as a shrub, bush or small tree, and rarely exceeds nine metres (30ft) in height...'

I believe that this might be an Elder, but I have yet to find another picture to bear a persuasive likeness.

Wisconsitom: Apologies for the many posts, but there does not appear to be a facility for editing here. I would add in question, What do you think it is?

That tree and that flower are not from the same plant. Perhaps they are located very close together and that is confusing you.

Yes, as I said, 'There were different types of leaf as though several trees had combined at the root.' I think they are tangled very intimately. What kind of tree do you surmise it is?

I think esh is approaching the truth :-) The tree looks very coniferous on the top and with something small and shrubby growing at the base. The base plant might very well be an elderberry.......the top is most certainly not.

Close up photos of both the base plant in situ and the foliar portion of the tree would be helpful to get any kind of accurate ID.

Oakenlore, when I open my pictures folder from my desktop I can select whichever picture I want. At the bottom there is a curved arrow which allows me to rotate the pic if I want to, you might try that.
Here is the link about the Elder growing from the base of your tree:

Here is a link that might be useful: Common Elder

I agree with gardengal that the top looks coniferous. The trunk to me looks like arborvitae (Thuja spp.), but hard to tell from a distant picture. Can you provide a closeup pic of the trunk and foliage?
hortster

One angle

Spiny leaves

Bole and bark

As earlier said, I broke a rod from this tree. The wood was markedly dry, pallid and warty. You will observe it on the left leaning against the bole.

Well, those spiny leaves sure look like Leyland Cypress to me.

They are clearly two different trees. Elders will grow right up against and even in the crown of other trees because that is where the birds sow the seed whilst they perch in the tree. There is a Linden where I work with an elder growing high up in a crook like an epiphytic orchid. But maybe that only happens in damp climates like mine.

Methinks Oakenlore has been messing with us! But I like it.

I don't know everything, that's what we've got Pineresin for! But I knew from the outset that that tree was no elder. The little flowering plant maybe, but not that tree.

+oM

Thanks for your responses, but is there someone who can provide an unambiguous answer? I know that it may possibly be elder, and may possibly be cypress, and possibly neither. But what type of tree is this categorically? The reason I ask to begin with is because of the supernatural sound on breaking off the rod.

flora uk: I am a denizen of Ireland, our climate is almost invariably wet. Judging by some pictures, I don't believe we are looking at a Linden tree. What seems to corroborate the notion of this tree being an Elder is both the warty texture of the wood and the white flowers to be observed in blossom on the tree, both of which are commonly found on Elders:

http://www.iimh.org/articles001.php

But I have no reason to err on the side of confidence as yet. The tree, apart from a few compelling particulars, does not bear comparison to a common Elder on the whole. If I was to propose an hypothesis, I would say that it is a type of cypress tree affected by 'witch's broom'. I have appropriated a piece from elsewhere to expound this condition to those unfamiliar:

"Witch's broom is a symptom of woody plants where compact clusters of numerous twigs and branches are formed. The mass of shoots comes from a common point, giving a broom-like appearance. The witches broom may last several years. Although some people consider witches broom unsightly, serious injury seldom results.

Witches brooms can be caused by various sources including mites, viruses, fungi, mistletoes, insects, and nematodes. Knowing the type of host plant can help determine the cause of the witches broom."

Before the advent of this knowledge, I had associated the broom-stick appearance of the tree with an Elder, as many do. Perhaps this might guide someone else to the truth, but I still have suspicions about this tree being an Elder. If not that, a type of cypress.

There are two different plant species involved in the above pictures. Have no idea of the broad leaf species. The conifer appears to be a Thuja to me....maybe Thuja occidentalis. This particular plant is sometimes referred to as the Tree of Life. It wouldn't surprise me if it 'moaned' when you broke the rod. :-)

Oakenlore - I didn't say the large tree in your picture was a Linden. I just said there is a Linden (and I used 'Linden' because most of the people here are in the US - I would call it a Lime) with an elder growing in it where I work as an example of how elders will grow right up against or even in other trees. The elder in your photo actually looks nothing at all like a witches broom which are distorted versions of the host tree, not completely different in leaf and flower. And they generally grow up on branches, not at the base of the affected tree. The commonest witches brooms in your neck of the woods would be on Birch.

I have given an unambiguous answer. The small flowering shrub is an elder, Sambucus nigra, at the base of a conifer. This is absolutely, without a doubt, the correct id. I don't know how else to convince you other than decades of experience and the fact that there is no other similar plant in the Flora of the British Isles. If you go back there now it will be showing green berries beginning to form, providing it has not been damaged. And later they will turn purple black if the birds leave them alone. If you break a twig you will find it hollow and containing a spongy whitish pith. This was the source of elder whistles and pipes in the past. The leaves have a rank scent when crushed and the flowers a rather cloying sweet smell. I have frequently made cordial and wine from the flowers and wine and jelly from the berries. Do you believe me now? The large evergreen coniferous tree is something else.

You did not say you were in Ireland but now I know that important fact I will say that, although I can't id your conifer, not being a conifer lover or expert, it is one I have seen frequently and is pretty common in old parks and cemeteries. Pineresin would know it in an instant.

I think the conifer might be Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Erecta' - a commonly planted churchyard and park tree during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Erecta'

But what do you really think? I mean, beyond all that ambiguity?

LOL

+oM

Flora uk: My request for an unambiguous answer was not solely aimed at your response. I know that you were not suggesting that this was a lime tree but I endeavoured to eliminate the possibility as much for my own clarity as for anyone else's. You seem unnecessarily offended. Please do not take umbrage to my ways as I was not dismissing your decades of experience. Still, it must be said that no mention was made of a conifer in your original response, in which you described the general habit of an Elder, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

http://www.tuincentrumsoontiens.nl/tuincentrumsoontiens.nl_object_upload/_11330_chleviri01.jpg

The broom-stick bottom of your suggestion is very like the one on my tree, so to answer your question: Yes, I am very much inclined to believe you on this point.

The broom-stick bottom of your Lawson Cypress (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Erecta') bears a very compelling likeness to the one on my tree. It must be a sapling, in which case, because there is a grove of Lawsons I know and they are significantly different in proportion. They are taller and they branch differently.

I think there is no doubt now that there is an Elder here tangled with a cypress of some kind. Thank you for your knowledgeable answer, Flora, and I hope that you will return to dispense more of your knowledge in future.

Oakenlore

P.S. I would like your opinion on the difference between the Lawson I'm familiar with and this one. Thanks.

No offence take whatsoever - I was just puzzled by the continuing doubt about the Elder.

I didn't mention a conifer in my original answer because a) it is quite obviously a conifer and to say so would be superfluous and b) I did not know the tree was in Ireland. I assumed it was in the US and therefore not in my realm of experience. As to the difference between this one and the others you know, the key is in the 'Erecta' part of the name. According to one of my books there are at least 165 different types of Lawson cypress available with more being added all the time. It is probably the commonest evergreen garden tree in the British Isles. 'Erecta' is just one type. I think the one in your picture is 'Erecta' because of its habit. As to it's being a sapling, I am not sure what you mean by that since it is clearly a very mature specimen. Unless 'sapling' means something different to you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Another cemetery example

Yes, clearly an upright form of Lawson cypress with an elder growing with it. Multiple different forms of Lawson cypress are still very common in the landscape in my area, despite the inroads of water molds and the long-standing major reduction in the amount of these trees being stocked at outlets. Cemeteries often have them, along with hollies etc.

I have even seen elder growing well off the ground, up in the crotches of trees here. Red elder in this case.

Flora: I understand, but I had proposed from the beginning that it may be a Cypress. The point is not how obvious a fact this is, but that you were insinuating that this was something you had been assering all along and that I was denying, which wasn't the case.

I do not think that we are at cross-purposes with regard to the definition of a sapling. I was alluding to the difference between the Cypress you proposed and the one we're observing as a theoretical explanation for that difference. I'm afraid it was not clearly mature to me because I am very new to this interest.

Anyhow, what is the title of your book? The only book on trees I own is a very richly illustrated one called Collins Tree Guide, which I highly advocate to anyone looking for a good book as recourse for identifying trees.

If permissible, and not too romantic, to ask of a connoisseur like yourself, do you know of any books which treat of the body of folklore surrounding trees? Here in Ireland the stories are many. If you know of some, which are the best?

Thanks for the links.

I think we have tapped the root of this!

I am more than likely wronge but the foliage looks like the arborvitae, I have a row of in my yard. But I'm sure it's not that simple. They must be related to Arborvitae at least. I suck at most evergreen info. There are lots of trees that look like them in an old cemetary in town here. The person that said Thuja saw the resemblance first.

I give up.

Flora, are you serious? I have acknowledged and am in agreement with your proposition. What more do you expect?

Poak, it looks like an Arborvitae to me, too. They will get quite large if not kept pruned. Those close-up pics of the leaves say it to me.

It's always helpful to know where a picture was taken, isn't it? Saves a lot of confusion and mis-identification.

It is difficult to say.

Arborvitae: http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2010/12/arborvitae%20hedge-thumb-590x394-65612.jpg

Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Erecta':http://www.7flowers.ru/Excel_price/2010/belgia_2010/conifers/CHAMAECYPARIS_lawsoniana__Erecta_Viridis_.jpg

By the way, is there no way to edit or expunge here?

Today I spent a couple of hours at the US National Arboretum in Wash DC. Even though I have never been interested in conifers I did spend some time in their pinetum. I looked it over carefully and finally asked for examples of Chamaecyparis lawsoniana Not a single specimen in the Gotelli Collection nor anywhere else.
We had a thread some time ago about this. For some reason Lawson Cypress doesn't like central & eastern US. No doubt that's why so many of us in the US were clueless as to the proper ID.
In the pics, Lawson Cypress seems right at home on the Emerald Isle, no blarney.

Could it be a old Platycladus?

Mike

I don't know. I've been oscillating between Chamaecyparis Lawsoniana and Arborvitae. There doesn't seem to be any consensus regarding the tree's proper classification. Nor can I appeal to experience as my interest in the naming of trees, which isn't to say the trees themselves, is fairly recent. I'm just entertaining the hope that it will come about eventually.

Between those two, I'd say Lawson's Cypress, not an arb. The way the foliage is held on arbor vitaes is not like that. Maybe it's not like the way Lawsons hold their foliage either. I've never knowingly seen one!

+oM

{{gwi:394186}}

my guess is a very mature platycladus...aka thuja orientalis.
just my 2 cents.

The reason I say it's a Platycladus is the vertical arrangement of the sprays. The first three pictures are posted sideways, and so is the fifth showing the sprays.
Platycladus have vertical sprays, Lawson Cypress have horizontal sprays.
Mike