That's one reason I have never ordered from DA, they cost more...I usually get grafted on Fort. anyway, and K & M sells them for $20.,in pots, and 4 in a box usually comes to abt. $20. for shipping, and they are usually blooming in that box... I get some DA roses from Chamblee's own-root in pots and they are abt. $10....and Cool Roses here in W. Palm sells fort.-grafted for $20., in pots, blooming... they have OGRs, Delbard, etc. a nice selection all suited to Fla.,,,, If you go on their various web-sites you can check out what's available.,,,,, sally

I should not complain loudly about my summer heat, when we had hail storm with ice pellets this July, only 3 days at 100 degrees, and now it's cool and rainy. I'm in zone 5a with short summer and cool/rainy spring and fall.

The sun here is more intense than Father Jerome's foggy CA coastline, and my 15 Austins lose their scent, blooms shrink in size with faded color. I would not pay $39 per Austin bare-root to waste my time watering and pruning octopus canes in my short but hot summer.

There are many Romantica and French roses more suitable for intense sun, such as 2007 Sweet Promise, Nahema, Bolero (these 3 were $8 per gallon during Roses Unlimited's summer sale). The answer is: it depends on how often you enjoy that $39 bare-root Austin rose. If it gives someone tremendous joy to get the latest brand-name item, then it's worth it.

I paid $10 per gallon to get Mary Magdalene from Roses Unlimited last year sale. I enjoy Mary's scent, and sniff her at least 10 times a day, so I get my money's worth. She's small, doesn't need much water, and I don't have to prune her. In contrast, I paid much higher prices for other Austins and got painful pricks, or resent them for demanding so much water, or waste time trimming octopus canes - these are not worth my money.

Try LongagoRoses.com, great roses and great selection.

Otto's sells the 5g DA roses in the $38-42 range. For the most part the plants are at least 24"x 24" Some much more.

I picked up a couple of DA's bareroot at La Sumida (local) for under $20 and on their rose fields in 5g pots for $27.

I would have a hard time paying $40 for a bareroot from them.

And when I go to Otto's, it is usually for a sale. (Like they have running right now $25- details on their website or FB page)

Austin charges more for his bare roots for the same reason dogs lick themselves...he CAN and many will pay it. Shipping is outrageous, period, no matter who you buy from. I recently mailed a package Priority Flat Rate for $11.35, but checked to see what standard Priority rates were...$16.20. Five pound box, LA to Seattle. It sure makes ordering smaller plants a whale of a lot more affordable than larger budded...as long as the smaller ones are suitable for where you are. Kim

I agree with Kim that getting band-size is cheaper in shipping cost. Last year I ordered 12 roses and paid $133 total (includes shipping cost) from Burlington in CA. Burling used a Flat Rate Box to save money in shipping to my Chicagoland, so I paid around $15 in shipping cost for 12 roses (4 are minis).

I'm crazy about mauve roses so I'll order Old Port and Stephen Big Purple from Burlington in advance. She's sold out on mauves early last year - it's only $10.95 per band.

I liked the analogy. I do love designer jeans.
This was my first experience ordering online or a bareroot.
I was just curious considering a whole rose with buds and blooms would cost nearly the same.

Hey strawberry the jeans do if you get them in the right size! LOL :^)

You can get DA from Heirlooms for 17.50 and I got Grande Dame this year from a local greenhouse/nursery and I paid $20 I thought that was expensive but then I ordered roses online and I got one rose for $10 but the shipping was $20! Shipping is whats gettin ya.

Hi Jessica: you made me laugh. Actually a $5 pajama pants look better on a fat lady than a $40 designer jeans. Hollywood star Alicia Silverstone claims that she gardens organically in the nude, get all dirty, then jump right into the shower. I have more class than that ... I garden in my pajama pants. He! He!

Hi Mauvegirl: when people pay $39 for a bare-root from David Austin, they are paying for a brand-name latest item. I no longer fall for the hype of latest brand name item, I go for what performes best in my soil and climate.
If you google for customer satisfaction by typing, "the scoop on ... name of nursery", you'll see 202 positive reviews for Chamblee, and 97 for David Austin in Texas. For complaints, it's only 4 for Chamblee, versus 19 for David Austin. There's the Rose Mosaic Virus issue for grafted bare-roots from David Austin.

Shipping cost is $20 for 3 roses from Chamblee in Texas, it's the same as Roses Unlimited to my Chicagoland. The rootball of own-root from Chamblee is HUGE, below is a picture of Eglantyne almost 2 feet tall.

{{gwi:302537}}

If you click on the link below, you'll see Evelyn, Charles Darwin I bought from Chamblee with many blooms.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:302536}}

yes, it would, Mauvegirl, and easiest of all is to go to a nursery and buy a plant in flower - they will be the same cost as bareroots, you can see the blooms and you do not have to pay carriage - and seeing as Austin roses are everywhere.....I myself, saw a rather good plant of the Lark Ascending at my local nursery, potted up and looking well....for the exact same price as a rose in the Austin catalogue sold Bareroot. I resisted buying because I don't do the 'early adopter' thing but like to wait and see how plants perform....in someone else's garden. After a few years of assessment, I will decide whether or not it can survive the no-spray neglect regime at mine. Most don't make the cut (and Austin's hardly ever).

Contrary to above comments, purchasing bands does not always result in cheaper shipping costs. As with almost everything, the cost to get a band from point A to point B is a relative proposition.

Case in point: There was one rose in Vintage's Fall Crop that I've waited years to find. I REALLY want that rose, but didn't attempt to order it because the total cost for the single band and its shipment from CA to NC would be $47.20. (Lines must sometimes be drawn -- even by rapid rose fanatics.)

The breakdown was: $14.95 for the rose; $22.75 to ship it; and $9.50 for an agricultural fee to ship the rose to NC. Vintage charges the same to ship 4 bands as it does to ship only 1. I've never understood the ag fee . . . I order actively growing plants from many sources (including other vendors in CA), but Vintage is alone in imposing the additional fee. Perhaps it's something specific to roses and their shipment from CA to certain states (the states involved are listed on Vintage's order form). Does anyone know?

In comparison, earlier this week I received shipment of 5 flowering vines from Kartuz Greenhouses in Vista, CA. I'd estimate that none of the potted vines (in abt 4 in. pots) weighed less than a rose band of normal size. The cost for shipping was exactly $15, and would have been less had I ordered fewer plants.

I realize that profit margins are ultra-slim for all nurseries, but it seems to me that measures to reduce shipping costs -- even if they result in only meager savings for the consumer -- might serve to increase sales.

strawberry, what is this persistant campaign you keep on conducting against Austins? And why do you keep on insisting that if it is true in your Chicago yard, it is true everywhere else?

This spring I ordered 3 Austins from David Austin and 3 Austins from Roses Unlimited. I did NOT pay $40 for any ONE Austin, although it is true that the David Austin roses cost more than the Roses Unlimited ones--but the David Austin bareroots are also bigger and more developed than the Roses Unlimited ones are, and even the ones from Roses Unlimited are not that much cheaper, especially since you have to order three roses even if you only want one or two roses. Sure roses are cheaper from places like Heirloom--if you want to buy dinky little plants. I don't want to--I'd rather pay a few dollars more for well-developed, more mature plants.

I'd also like to point out that none of my 15-20 Austins in my garden have displayed "octopus arms," so I have no idea why you keep claiming that is a major problem for gardeners. It is NOT for an awful lot of us.

As for watering, I water my Austins the same as I water my other roses, so I don't know where you get this idea that Austins are waterhogs way beyond what other roses are. Mine are NOT.

Yes, the Austin blooms get smaller in very hot weather (try triple-digit heat for two months straight--that is HOT), but guess what--ALL MY ROSES put out smaller blooms in really hot weather, so it is not some particular flaw of the Austins.

Perhaps RMV is out there, but as far as I know, none of my 15-20 Austins has it, but a couple of my healthy, well-blooming other roses (like Earth Song, for instance) do have it. It is not a weakness peculiar to Austins, but a chance you take with any rose you order in this day and age. And having RMV has not noticeably affected my Earth Song which is 6-7 years old--it still blooms beautifully and remains resistant to BS.

Well, I don't remember if there were some other points we disagree on, but I do know that my Austins do NOT resemble the Austins you talk about in your garden, and I thought prospective buyers need to know that--before you scare off future Austin customers.

Kate

I agree with you, Kate, on all your points, and we have had similar temps for the past two months. Many of my roses have shot out candelabra at times, and they certainly weren't all Austins. I would rather judge a rose on its individual merits, rather than as a whole group. They are each unique in their weaknesses and strengths. Diane

Hey Camp. isn't DA from the UK? So why wouldn't his roses do good there?

In Texas band size roses are probably the cheapest and easiest way to go but up North they are a risky investment. With our short season they don't seem to be able to gain enough size to make it through the first winter unless they're incredibly vigorous growers or are literally greenhoused. For me I'd rather spend a little more for the bare roots and know I'm going to get a big enough plant to stand up to it's first winter here. In the long run it's cheaper.

BTW, Strawberry, this fat lady looks much better in her designer jeans than any pajama bottoms!

Not all of Austin's roses have the same resistances to the same fungi. He sprays in his gardens and selection process. Campanula stated her garden has a "no-spray neglect regime". She researches them by observing them in other less high-care situations than his selection trials to see if they will agree with her style of gardening. Kim

A note on bands in my nice weather.

I purchased 2 bands from Burlington; Grandmothers Hat and Reine des Violettes. I put them right in 5g pots rather than the 1g's because they were going to be outside and 5gs are easier to keep watered.

Grandmothers Hat took right off, RdV was a bit slower but growing.

About a month ago, both went in their intended homes, mom was not a fan of them in pots. (less than 6 months after purchasing)

Both have taken off, RdV is now taller and wider than GH.

They are even as tall as many of my 5g several year old Otto's David Austins. BUT the size of the canes and overall mass is very different. In an area where you were looking at cold weather in less than a month, I would be worried about the bands.

For me, I will purchase the bands of the special roses (once mom sees the light on letting them stay in the pot til they are big enough to do battle with the chickens)

But for filling a bed for my 88 year old mom, the larger fuller 5g's are a no brainer for me. It is easier to see how they will become when you are younger than older and she wants to see it looking good now.

Mary Rose is full of tiny buds, James Galway has a half a dozen open now and so does crocus rose. GH has a bud coming and RdV has 3 or 4. The 3 colors of ownroot Icebergs also make mom happy as they are full of buds as well. But also much smaller than the DA's

A few points, firstly well said dublinbay. A minority of loud voices can put people off. I think some of you guys think of David Austin Roses as some sort of huge multinational company, I've been there, it truly isn't!! His office is a big wooden shed in the grounds, they have some quite old greenhouses, a small group of workers who don't earn a lot of money but are there all the time. They spray during initial growing of the seedlings in the greenhouses. Once they select the ones they want to trial, they never see spray again. That is only true of the last few years worth of releases so obviously the older ones may not be as healthy. I think that by the time they have field grown the rootstock for a couple of years, paid somebody to bud it, then grown it on for another year before it is ready to send out, $20 or, as we pay over here, the equivalent of $28 for a rose doesn't sound that bad to me. I think if we try to drive down prices too much, there is no reason for these people to stay in business. I'm the opposite of camps, I do tend to look after my roses quite well so even the most dodgey ones do ok for me. @JessicaBe the weather over here is so strange, you can go 10 miles and have a completely different climate. Cambridge where camps is is so different to staffordshire / shropshire. Roses are very subjective, it would be boring if we all liked the same thing, but we shouldn't turn our individual dislikes into some vitriolic rant about a single nursery based on our own experiences. I had a few Kordes roses, they are not for me, they lack character, but you don't hear me constantly ranting about them, I just say that they are not to my taste.

If I have to wait until Spring 2013 for a bareroot, why don't they send out a small potted rose plant?

I don't get what you mean? The potted roses you buy here from DA are just potted bare roots. They do a load in spring that they think they need for the year. They can't for instance go and dig up a plant now and pot it for you.

Mauvegirl, There's a definite "season" for bareroots (which are almost always grafted plants). They're held in cold storage by producers after fall harvest, and are generally available for purchase/shipping only from late winter thru early spring. Should you find bareroots that are available after that, avoid them. If you would be satisfied with a small potted rose plant, and if you want it immediately, then consider purchasing an own-root plant.

Yes, it's all true - I am a neglectful gardener so I have to balance not only the type of rose (such as an Austin rose, very full, very (ahem), similar but mostly, simply not able to hack it in the public weedpit I garden in. So, I also don't go for Austin roses because whenever I have done so, they invariably look rubbish surrounded by giant ox-eye daisies, rampant self seeds, swaying foxgloves and many homemade salvage timber 'structures (although that is a kind term which implies planning and even artistry - neither apply in my case) and weeds, many,many weeds....various little hybrid musk flowers, ramblers and burnets, wild roses and so on, look absolutely the ticket. If there was ever even a sniff of a box hedge appearing at my plot, then I might have to go the Austin route again (and I do, of course, still get sorely tempted).

I am naive about bareroots versus the 1 or 2 gallon pots available locally at plant nurseries.
Please correct me if I am wrong on the term "bareroot".
Am I just buying a twig/stick without leaves or buds? Because that is what I perceive a bareroot is.
I am new and eager to learn about roses.

Secondly, my curiosity was if I don't get anything mailed until the proper season (Spring 2013), then why wouldn't I receive a plant with leaves and buds?

I understand I am buying a designer rose, "Young Lycidas". If I could've found in Houston, TX - I would've just gone out and bought it (no matter the cost).

Thank you in advance!

Mauvegirl, another source for Austin bareroots is Pickering in Canada. They are a little more reasonably-priced at $16 each, and they have a nice selection of Austins although no where near as many as David Austin in Texas. They are finished shipping bareroots for the season and won't start taking orders for fall/winter/spring until next month. Pickering does have a 3-plant minimum order however. On the plus side shipping is pretty reasonable at $18 to the US for 3 or 4 plants. They also have a much stricter policy on Rose Mosaic Virus than does Austin in Texas.

I bought 3 Austins from Pickering this year and have been very pleased with them (most especially Wild Edric, which is listed with the rugosas instead of with the other Austins, and is a STAR in my garden and surprisingly drought tolerant to boot!).

In terms of purchasing potted Austins, I've gotten some very healthy band size plants from Heirloom recently--Happy Child, Snowdon, and Mrs. Doreen Pike. Heirloom also has taken a tougher stand on Rose Mosaic Virus, and since that is important to me, I continue to buy from them. Regularly priced bands from Heirloom are $17.50 but you can sometimes luck out when they have a 1/2 off sale.;) Heirloom's packaging is one of the best I've encountered among all plant vendors from whom I've ordered. The bands are wrapped in paper (butcher-block????) like a burrito and are very easy to unwrap with no scissors or other tools needed as the paper is neither taped nor stapled. This seems more eco-friendly to me than the gobs of tape or peanuts some sellers use.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: David Austin roses at Pickering Nurseries, Canada

If you're talking about tiny rooted sticks in very small pots (usually 2 or 3 inches) than those are called "bands" and are own root roses not grafted and not "bare roots". As I said earlier, I prefer the bigger bare root plants or potted ones for my climate. Unless it's something very specific that I cannot get any other way I try to avoid bands.

Bare root plants are usually at least one to two year old grown out good size plants. As Jaxon said, for the most part those are grafted roses that have been harvested in the fall (dug out of the ground and stripped of all the soil) and placed in cold storage usually for spring sale. Have you seen the roses sold in plastic bags at your local big box stores like Home Depot or Walmart? Those are "bare root" roses that have been packaged in mass quantities for these types of merchants. But you can also order "bare root" plants from some nurseries as well. They will look very much the same as those packaged roses but minus the sawdust and plastic bags. They usually come wrapped in something moist like newspapers to keep them from dehydrating during shipping but they will still not have any type of soil or pot, just the "bare" roots.

Own root roses are just that, varieties growing on their own roots. Some roses do very well this way but there are some varieties that were just never bred to be on their own roots so they will be very slow to grow and small plants on their own roots. And even if it is a variety that does do well on it's own roots, generally, own root roses take longer to mature to full size plants.

Grafted roses are one variety spliced on top of the roots of a different variety. This is done in most cases to add strength and vigor to any variety by grafting it to specific root stocks that are known to be very vigorous and/or hardy. The three most common root stocks are Dr. Huey, Multiflora and Fortuniana because they are extremely vigorous growers and their roots will allow other varieties to grow large and quickly. Dr. Huey and Multiflora are more hardy for cold climates. Fortuniana gives MONSTER growth but can be winter tender so is not recommended for places colder than zone 7. You can usually tell a grafted rose by the large knot or knobby part between the roots and the top cane growth. In cold climates it's suggested that this knot be buried below the soil surface to protect it from the cold. If a grafted rose dies all the way down to that graft the rose that comes back in the spring will probably be the root stock and not the original grafted variety.

There are many pros and cons to each type and people take sides about it all the time. Personally I have both and they both due well for me so it's more a matter of getting the variety I want and not to worry about it's roots.

It is possible to get fully grown potted roses by mail order but you will pay very dearly for them and for the postage. Rose bushes aren't light weight on their own and when you add a pot full of wet dirt into the equation the postage can be astronomical!

seil, I "clipped" your post because it answered all
"my curiosities". Thank you for taking the time with
the terminology.

Do you guys ever get anything grafted on laxa, that's what david austin uses over here.

If you are in a place where the soil/water are alkaline, you are best NOT to order from Pickering or Hortico. Their plants are well-grown, BUT they are budded onto Multiflora. In very alkaline conditions, they have problems.

I know this first-hand, because we have grown many of them in our alkaline soil and water, and it's far from ideal.

We do better, here, with plants on their own roots than with plants budded onto Multiflora.

And, Kippy -- Yes, Otto & Sons does sell well-grown plants, and we have bought many of them. But there are two sides to everything. Those containerized plants have been pushed pretty hard to come up to bloom for sale, and we found that when we planted them here, it took a year for them to "de-tox" and recover.

Of course, it's easy for me to say, since we basically aren't buying roses at present. There's just one thing I want -- the pink clone of R. chinensis var. spontanea, from Vintage. When they have that, I'll buy it.

Jeri :-)

Yes, I have some roses on laxa. Pickering grafts most roses on multiflora but according to their website, http://www.pickeringnurseries.com/pickering_nurseries__faqs.htm, they put most of their "roses on R. multiflora and the gallicas, damasks and some odds & ends on R. laxa."

I bought the damasks Duc de Cambridge and Four Seasons Rose, the gallica Aimable Rouge as well as the moss Rene d'Anjou (possibly a damask moss, so maybe also on laxa) from Pickering this year or late last year, bareroot of course. Duc de Cambridge is a *very* vigorous grower although he hasn't bloomed for me yet. Both Aimable Rouge and Four Seasons Rose are doing nicely with FSR giving one really nice flush already this year. But Rene d'Anjou is an exceptional performer and has just finished its third huge flush for me this year (flowers do crisp in 3-digit heat). RdA is huge too, almost 5 feet tall and covered in lots of leaves. A+ to this rose.

Now I have another rose that I bought from Eurodesert last year, a fully mature plant which was imported (though I'm not sure from which nursery he bought it from). Never seen roots like that on a rose before. They were dense, like fine hair or algae, and went straight down a LONG way. Found this out when I bought the plant and dug it up to bring it home. Surprise! I'm wondering what THAT rootstock is? I'll have to ask Cliff about it. In any case, this rose took being moved in the heat of summer in its stride and barely skipped a beat at being so rudely uprooted. Another I bought (also an import) looked like wilted lettuce as soon as it was dug up (even trimmed back like all the others it still behaved much differently, immediate severe shock), and I kid you not it had A TAPROOT (didn't know roses had them). Thought I was crazy when I saw that the first time and wondered if I'd only imagined it. I bought a second of the same plant from Cliff, to come home with me on a later trip. Only the second time I was careful to watch for the taproot possibility and dug up that plant last so it wouldn't be stressed as long on the drive home. Sure enough--poof!--another hug taproot and the plant promptly wilted severely. I rushed it home, stuck it in the shade, doused it with water and immediately potted it up in a huge pot (which is still its home) and kept it heavily watered and in the shade for months. Although it wilted and all the leaves crisped and fell off, it leafed out again and started blooming within a few weeks. I learned quickly from the first one, which I lost.

Melissa

I much prefer growing anything budded on multiflora or laxa, pickering is always my prefered choice for my climate.

Most bands Ive bought are pathetic to say the least, at least chambless and thier trade gallon is mostly a better deal, but not always, Ive gotten some of thier trade gallons that were as pathetic as bands.

It will be a sad day for me if it comes down to 100% ownroots only choices.

I have to say, I dont think all DA's are terrible, but they do all need to be sprayed, I dont know about his last 4 years or so, becuase I stopped buying all moderns, but when I did grow a # of them in my old home and sprayed, they gave 2-3 really nice flushes of mostly fragrant roses.

Silverkelt

Jeri,

I think that most nurseries with customers that buy on the property make sure that their plants on sale look the best they can. Otto's has enough inventory they can rotate out any poor looking ones. But I expect any large plant I purchase at any nursery to have gotten extra "treatment" to look/produce at its best.

If you are selling bands or bareroots to people who are only looking at the catalog photo, it is much easier to grow a plant differently.

FYI, my friend that passed away and shot photos for some of those catalog images for companies like Meiland and J&P knew that an exacto knife and super glue made for some great looking sample photos (oops his little secret)

I guess time will tell if my nursery plants will continue to do much better than my bareroots. So far, they do look much better.

The local nursery sets aside one day a week to close their rose grounds to tend to them with out customers.

With so many nurseries being pushed out due to costs, it only makes business sense to have plants look good and produce well for your clients. If the plants were all pushed so far they would not flourish in customers gardens, the companies would not stay in business for long. (excepts to that being the big box stores that can also sell you other products so a loss on a refund of a plant is minor)

Kippy, having been "in that business" for a number of years, believe me, the roses you most often get to choose from ARE pushed to make them 'retail worthy'. The local nursery which closes for a day to tend their roses, is probably doing it because they are spraying them with either pesticides or fungicides or both. All have stated re-entry times on their labels and many stink. Both issues make it impossible to use them with any customers (or many employees) around.

If they don't grow their own, they specify "retail ready" for the orders. Most growers, Otto included, as I bought from them for years, usually don't offer the plants unless they are retail ready. Kim

Kim

I don't doubt that Ottos and other nurseries push plants, they have to. Ottos just has a big enough stock they can put out the better looking retail ready roses and hold back the ones that look less then wonderful.

Absolutely! Kim

It sounds so different to over here - it's amazing. I don't think I've ever seen own root roses offered anywhere for sale. Most places where you can buy container roses are open 7 days and if they do spray them it must be after closing on one day. I know at the DA nursery, the plants get taken off the benches when they get a bit big. They cart them off somewhere and prune them back - I often wonder if they get their spraying and feeding done while they are in hiding. I've been a couple of times and wanted one that there is nothing of on sale and they disappear off and get me one. I do sniff at the postage costs though, if I order a rose from somewhere that I can't collect, it is �13.95 for the rose and �6.95 for postage at least. From DA, I collect my bare roots in november and usually just buy container roses, it is only old roses and the occasional less popular one that I end up ordering in. I don't think I'd buy a rooted stick if it were offered to me lol - I'd feel a bit robbed. It's all done very differently here, our biggest chain garden centres, which to be fair aren't that big offer at least one year on their plants and often two years, so they do tend to be high quality. I doubt very much if the DA nursery makes a huge amount of money from direct sales from visitors - most of their income must come from bare roots and licensing.

It's all because of climate, caldonbeck. To get the equivalent to our more year round garden friendly climates here, you have to live around the Mediterranean. In much of California, it's possible to root and grow a rather impressive own root plant in a year. I have polys I rooted this January, growing in two gallon cans which are nearly two by two feet. Of course, it all depends upon the cultivar, but it's the climate that makes the difference. Much of Europe's climates require budding due to shorter growing seasons and pretty harsh winters. Own root propagation definitely is faster and more productive with warmer, longer summers. Kim

oh definately, I have been transferring a lot of my roses onto their own roots - not for any particular reasons other than my allotment has a somewhat temporary feel at present and I really need to know that I can take cuttings from my roses should I have to leave. Caldonbeck, the roses on laxa rootstock are VERY resistant to moving, especially after a few years in the ground. It is a hit and miss procedure, even when done in dormancy, as the rootstock wants to make an enormous taproot with few fibrous feeding roots - in my losse sandy soil, they reach to Australia. True, cuttings can be taken in July, overwintered outside in 5 litre pots then are often fit to go in the ground the following spring (surprisingly, a few of the Austins have an inherent vigour and can be propagated quickly, and all the species are fast, apart from the burnets)....but just as often, they need another pot year of more intensive care before leaving them to the rough and ready situation at my plot.So, no real saving in time since I avoid the year of growing a rootstock but need extra time once rooted, before plants are gardenworthy. As it happens, I have been going back to canina rootstock too,( a better proposition, althougth without the rapid growth seen on laxa ) and experimenting with a rather dodgy (home-made) mist unit, grafting scions (whip and tingue) onto bits of canina, then put in jiffies. I saw a video of this method (common in dutch nurseries) and a little light bulb went off in my head - why not root the cuttings AND create the graft at the same time!. I am thinking we will be seeing more of this as it is extremely difficult to get good contract budders who will graft in situ - yet another disappearing horticultuiral skill.
Time will tell, but so far, once in the ground, I can see no significant difference between grafted plants and own root plants (although I do tend to grow tough roses).

Camps, do you not find that yours go own root when you plant them a bit deeper. Often when I dig mine out they are mostly rooted above the graft. To be honest, moving them isn't an issue for me, I always agonise over where to put them first and if they get dug out it is to put them in the garden waste lol. The only Austins that don't have enough vigour is the english musks, doubt if they could manage own root, but the leanders definitely could.

Caldonbeck, I don't do much moving either because of rose replant sickness -I tend to stick with what I have until it is too horrible to bear -unlike these Americans who chop and change, moving and replacing, every week. Yeah, they do make roots above the graft but not really enough to survive on - I think it is kinda like apical dominance in reverse - no matter how deep you plant it (and bearing in mind, my ratty soil), the plant never really seems to shrug off the primacy of the grafted rootstock....and significant damage to laxa usually means the rose is going to struggle unless you are a Florence Nightingale type (not I). I dunno - many people do point out the positive effects of deep planting while others disagree - it's not something I agonise over.

Mind -- I'm not pointing a specific finger at Otto, either.

On the rare occasion that we buy a rose, it comes to us either it 1-G or a band, and we are content to let it grow up here.
But it is a fact that plants pushed for retain sale in "bud and bloom" take darned near as long to settle down and grow well here as the smaller plants do, take up more space doing it, and for the most part cost more.

Matter of personal preference, but we can wait for plants to grow up, and show us how they like it here.

Jeri

Just had to jump in here because of this statement: "What David Austin sells is like expensive designer jeans, and people pay for the brand-name, and the hype of getting the latest item". That touched a nerve. One: I never buy a designer-anything just to have a brand-name. Two: I definitely do NOT desire the 'latest item' of anything - just not my style. Three: I'm opposed to spending any amount of money just to be in what some have labeled the latest style. I buy what I like and buy it at the cheapest price I can find it. Which brings me to point number Four: I really wanted Munstead Wood because of the good reports from people who grew it in Texas or in like-conditions. I couldn't find it anywhere but David Austin so I bit the bullet and spent the money. I couldn't care less about the brand or the new-on-the-market aspect. I got what I payed for which is a specific look and a great performer in my climate. Just saying . . .

lou texas - I wish there was a 'like' button on this forum lol.

Oh well, it surely is alright to state whether you like a rose or not and, to be fair, poor old Strawbs (who got a little personal ticking off) has at least put her money where her mouth is and bought a lot more Austins than I have (and I don't care for 'em either), Because David Austin is the ONLY breeder to be given a sort of primacy by mentioning both hois name and his ouvre, this is always going to skew feelings towards his 'btand' and his output, marketing or whatever...however, this should also give detractors a clue (I really don't moan on about what I REALLY think about Austins because I am just onto a hiding for a start..but we all tend to be for or against certain roses, certain classes, certain styles, certain colours and so on. Anyway, at the very least, a moan about a breeder or nursery or any other category is NOT a personal attack on someone's acumen and intelligence, or even taste and style (or only in my head at any rate). We like pissing and moaning.....don't we?

And all those pushed, potted plants sold retail at any local nursery started out as bare roots. In talking with one of my local nurserymen he said they place a large order in January then they pot them up on receipt and grow them out in their greenhouses for spring sale. And that's what you're paying for. Their time and expenses in growing those roses so you get a bigger plant to start out with. I can grow them out myself. It's cheaper and I actually enjoy seeing them come to life because I took good care of them.

I have to agree with Lou, you get what you pay for. Haven't we all pooh poohed those cheapie bagged roses as being inferior and probably mislabeled to boot? Of course we have! Because they are. They're grade 2 roses at best and are a crap shoot as to whether they'll survive let alone thrive. I've ordered two roses from DA over the years and both of them were big healthy specimens when they arrived and have thrived and grown huge over the years. The customer service I received both times was prompt and impeccable. And although I had no problems with my purchases I am sure that had I they would have been dealt with just as promptly by DA. Yes, they are more expensive but you get what you pay for. Many, MANY of us have had experiences with other vendors who are less expensive but who also sell less quality product and who have less than stellar customer service. As for DA roses being less healthy and spot prone, BAH! Even Knock Out spots here!

Knock Out "spots" most places, but I'll bet it retains more healthy leaves and provides more flowers while doing it, in many more climates than pretty much any other rose available. No, it isn't a favorite of mine, I don't even grow it personally, but have installed and suggested them for several other people who wanted the color without the maintenance and they work. Kim

The forced plants you can buy are a nigthmare. They just go into shock and take longer to get going than if you waited to order a bare root. To be fair I do think that the assumption by his team that they can just release them all abroad was a mistake. If you notice, the new releases only one or two get released to america now. Apparently, they are actually trialling them in overseas markets prior to release now, makes sense. Should have been done from the start. For me though, they grow perfectly, I am about 20 miles as the crow flies from them. If they can't thrive in the same conditions as the breeder there is a serious problem lol. I too don't care for the jeans comment, nobody knows what roses I grow and my neighbours don't know their ar$e from their elbow when it comes to and plants so I'm certainly not trying to keep up with the joneses. I buy what I like, theirs seem to be higher quality than I can get anywhere else, even their ones that they didn't breed. I tend to order everything from them.

I guess I will just have to wait and see how my Austins do over time. But happy to see the Crocus likes her new home and has set 20+ buds. (I bought it when it was just finished with the last round)

I really enjoy a variety of gardens and garden styles. What is perfect to one is horrid to another. Bet a few people would not be happy having a front yard with out a blade of grass, but for us it is ideal. Large and informal works in our beds but for others small neat and tidy is what makes their heart sing.

I have only ordered own-root bareroots from DA directly this spring. Yes, they are more expensive, but IMHO it is money well spent. The two own roots have grown to about the same size as the grafted ones bought from Palatine around the same time. For own-root plants, I think is money well spent as it would probably take a couple of years for bands to grow to that size.

I also buy from RU (love it!), heirloom, ARE and Chamblee and also haunt HD and our local nurseries.

I keep an eye out for sales at DA. I'm always happy with their product. I had to move The Wedgwood Rose because I think she should be sold as a climber for sure for my area, but I don't fault anyone for that. She's a lovely choice for her new role :)

I am lucky that I have the space to always put a rose in a different spot, though. I have certain nearly finished gardens where I'm buying something very specific, and I get irked if the rose turns out much different than described.

I don't notice a health problem on the choices of Austins I have, either, but most of my roses get something sometime. My Teas and Chinas actually surprise me for being as prone as they are compared to, say, Austins. Noisettes are usually rock solid here, but otherwise all classes are at least a little temperamental sometimes (except for individual exceptions).

I'd say my Austins are usually average to very good, with a few individual bummers. Glamis Castle and The Prince hated me, for instance :D