Are you giving much water? Does your soil drain well?
Do you feed the earthworms?

The second picture looks somewhat like waterlogging because of the yellowing veins. The first one, not particularly. Own-root Earth Song is one of two roses that has ever shown waterlogging symptoms for me, so it might be less tolerant than the average rose. Dig down six inches and look. When soil is completely saturated, water will seep into a hole. Roses probably won't show symptoms if they have at least six inches of aereated soil.

How many gallons per week are you watering?

This probably sounds really dumb, but with the amount of mulch I have around the roses but I can't tell when they need an extra drink of water with the heat until the leaves droop which is stressing them. Same thing with over watering until the leaves start showing some yellowing. I bought a water meter and now I check periodically when the weather has been doing some 10 degree heat changes, ie 100's to 90's. I don't have the problems I had anymore. The sprinklers are all on a 3 times a week timer. The water meter may not be really accurate but it helps me out. I don't mean I check each rose, I check a large rose a medium rose and a mini to make sure conditions are ok.

Thanks for the replies.
Both photos are the same plant, one is just close up. This particular bush is Ramblin Red, just one of several showing the same symptoms. My usual watering method is to flood the bed once a week. I agree, with mulch in place it's hard to tell at a glance, but I think it may be time to dig down 6 inches and check.

Mike

With once-a-week watering and little rain, waterlogging shouldn't be a problem unless the drainage is unimaginably bad. Roses can stand waterlogged soil for a while, and surely it wouldn't take all week to drain.

However, it would be a good idea to know how many gallons you are applying and just give enough water to replace what the roses will use in a week.

I had some of these problems a month ago--after our month of rain. I also thought it was a reaction to too much water, but I'm not sure now. Whenever the beds got drier and needed water, it would happen again. I finally concluded (very unscientifically, I might mention) that those were old leaves that the plant was going to get rid of anyway. At least it wasn't happening to the newer leaves on my plants. I'm wondering now if this was the long-term effect of the great Easter freeze--those leaves that survived weren't as healthily developed and as a result deteriorate rather fast as they get "old." However, the quick deterioration seemed to always occur after a watering--but not necessarily excessive watering--just any watering.

What do you think?

Kate

Hi Mike,
I had this and still have the same problem. I posted about it awhile ago. At first I thought RMV but it very well could be spider mites. I am also thinking thrips. It came right up through the middle of the plant. I have one bush that is completely defoliated because of this. No leaves whatsoever. I was thinking I could have used too much Bayer 3 in 1 (soil drench) but I am still just guessing. It has been so dry here, hardly any rain. Here is what I have on Brigadoon and several others.
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I have the same problem going right now w/ an Iceberg I planted 2 months ago. It is in an area which I have to water meticulously since it is up near a brick wall, southern exposure. It looks like it is a lack of water situation in my case.

Betty

ramblin' -- looks like waterlogging -- is that a possibility with your planting mix and watering habits?

Yes, perhaps my watering techniques are not as they should be. Could you give me advice on what is the best way to irrigate my roses and also what planting mix would be advisable? Thanks so much.

ramblin'--

Since you are near the ocean, I guess you have sandy soil that drains fast. If so, you couldn't have waterlogging unless you have filled planting holes with something else like organic matter. Is that the case?

If you think you may have waterlogged soil, investigate 6" down to see if it's sodden. Then you would need to let it dry out for several days. Then I would try watering 2 gallons per plant twice a week in moderate summer weather (80-90). Organic matter holds a great deal of water and it won't drain readily into the sand around it, so you would aim at just replacing the water the plant uses.

But if the roots are in mostly sand, you might water every 2-3 days in summer, 5 gallons or so per week.

What is usually recommended for planting roses in sandy soil is to mix the sand with 3-5 inches of compost or peat all over the planting area.

Hi michaelg,
I have somewhat sandy soil. When I moved here the spot where I put my rose garden was 3 feet deep with leaves and tree branches. The house has been here for 46 years and I was told this spot was never cleaned up so you can imagine the compost that was already in the ground. I never filled any holes before planting my roses, just used the dirt that was here. That was about 4 years ago. I will check the soil 6" down for excessive moisture, thanks so much for your advice.
MadcityMike, so sorry for hyjacking your thread.

No problem ramblinrosez. The more the merrier. Yes, it came right up the middle of the plant, so I didn't even notice it at first, and when I did, half the plant was affected.
Ramblin Red did this to a lesser degree last year as well, and like Kate, I likened it to a youngster losing baby teeth. But this is more severe than last year, and affecting several other plants as well. I would have suspected too much water, but we've had almost no rain all summer. I don't believe I've over-watered. Has anyone ever seen this caused by drought?

My Camisole does this every year. Don't know why? None of the other roses in the bed get leaves like this. It just gets these weird yellow leaves towards the bottom of the plant and they fall off. It doesn't seem to affect the overall health of the bush. It is still blooming, blooming, blooming. I would post a picture, but it is dark now:0) melanie

Now its starting on my Neptune bush. You know Mike we are having a terrible dry spell here too, we have had no rain, and I mean a good downpour, for months now. It is getting worrisome. Perhaps without realizing it we over compensate when watering our plants and are giving them too much, thinking they need more because it is so dry. One good thing about it is that there is not much blackspot to worry about, thats for sure.
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It's always hard to say, because roses will just drop some old, shaded leaves in midsummer, some varieties more than others. I suspect waterlogging when the veins are turning yellow, starting with the lowest leaf on a stem and moving up steadily. What happens is the plant can't get enough oxygen, so it steals oxygen-rich substances from the lower leaves and pumps them into the new growth.

Measure your water and replace what the roses are using, maybe 4-5 gallons per week for New Jersey in July.

Older leaves turning yellow like these photos show can be a symptom of nitrogen deficiency. Frequent watering will wash away the nitrogen and leave the plants deficient. They transfer what they have to the newer leaves that need it more, and the older leaves lose out and turn yellow and drop off. Old leaves turn yellow and drop off eventually anyway.

Has nothing to do with 'stealing' oxygen. Waterlogging will lead to oxygen deprivation at the roots, which causes the roots to die, which causes the tops of the plant to wilt. Leaves give off oxygen during photosynthesis, and burn oxygen in metabolism. Leaves don't get their oxygen from the roots or vice versa. Roots get theirs from the pore spaces in the soil, which will be filled with air when they're not filled with water, which is how waterlogging drowns roots.

Hot weather makes us water our roses more, which washes away the fertilizer. Water a little less often if possible, and if you're in sandy soil water lightly because water washes through sand quickly. Fertilize lightly every week and see if things don't improve. Composts and organic fertilizers hold onto nitrogen so it doesn't wash away so quickly so try those too.

Sorry for my mistake, on looking it up, Reg is right about roots and leaves each providing for their own oxygen. Thanks for the correction. However, yellow veins and death of lower leaves are the foliar symptoms of oxygen deficiency in rose according to Horst's Compendium of Rose Diseases. I guess it could be nitrogen deficiency if the plants are an overall light green, but they do not seem so in the pictures. N deficiency does affect the lower leaves somewhat more than the rest, but the N-deficient plants I've observed were pretty uniform and did not have yellow veins. Has Ramblin' fertilized in the past six weeks or applied any slow nitrogen before that?

Hi everyone,

This is how and what I fed my plants since April.
April 1- Fertilizer 5-5-5 watered in with Miracle Grow Liquid
May 1 Bayer All In One soil drench
June 1 - Bayer All In One soil drench
July 1 - RoseTone watered in with Fish Emulsion Liquid
Now I am getting ready August 1 to put in the Bayer All in One soil drench and that will be the last of it for the season although we get blooms all the way up to Thansgiving so I might feed them again in September.
I water my plants at least twice a week by hand with a soaker hose and I ususally leave the hose on at the base of the plant for about 5 to 10 minutes each rose, about a gallon and a half per rose. I do have cedar mulch in the bed around the roses which keeps it pretty moist.
Should I change anything?

Sounds like enough fertilizer that you wouldn't have a nitrogen deficiency, given that you say you also have high OM. If you're being fairly accurate about the watering amount, you wouldn't have waterlogging. If the plants are growing strongly, you're watering enough.