They are at their peak now here in IL. I do EXACTLY the same thing you do. I just cut off the flower bud once I have sprayed them. So no other insects (possibly beneficial) will get on that flower. And mostly the beetles have eaten it all by then. Had to sacrifice a really nice "heritage" bloom this morning already, there were about 8 on one flower. Killed those jb's dead with bayer!

I also, go out early in the am before work and cut off any emerging flowers before they get eate, and let them open in the house. Just saved an "angel face" flower this morning!

I haven't had too many, but my current strategy is to squash it on the flower and leave its carcass hanging on the blossom to warn all others to BEWARE. Whatever works, congratulations to you Veilchen.

Annie

How toxic is that product?...TIA...Jeanne

My local ARS is testing out bounce dryer sheets...supposedly the bounce and only the bounce ones help. I will give it a try and see.

The insecticide in Bayer Rose & Flower Insect Killer is "highly toxic" to bees.

Using this product on flowers is unconscionable.

Bill

Klimkm wrote: "I just cut off the flower bud once I have sprayed them. So no other insects (possibly beneficial) will get on that flower."

I agree that would cut down the potential damage to the beneficial insects like bees if you choose to spray the blooms. And its probably more important than the dead JBs that you choose to wear respirator mask while spraying the JBs. ThatÂll at least eliminate one of the highly toxic factors that your lungs exposed to every day during JB season. A new set of lungs is very hard to come by, and it will likely be rejected by your own body. JMHO.

I've heard that Bounce dryer sheets are good for keeping away everything from black flies, to mosquitos, to ticks. I didn't have any luck with it keeping anything away. However, you never know, so good luck with that sunnishine!

Lung transplants?

I am determined to go organic in my new garden. Then I saw a ton of the JB's and almost changed my mind. But I put a lot of thought into the flowers and roses I planted for butterflies, etc. I found they really loved this weeping tree I have, so I sprayed it with insecticidal soap. The next day I blasted everything that had JP's with water. I haven't seen a JP in a week.

The product with neem oil in it works well, but for some reason it is hard to get around here - they only stock a limited amount and by early July it is gone off the shelves and they don't restock until next spring. And if it is over 85 degrees - which it is much of August around here.... 90s all week... it burns the foliage bad. But I have used the safer product with neem when it is cooler weather, with some success.

I also have phlox and coneflowers and herbs planted with the roses, and mostly the bees/butterflies go for those anyway. Also have native prairie plants and milkweed in a separate section of my garden that is all organic and most the insects are there.

Oh boy.

mw, your beetles are not gone due to insecticidal soap or water.

Again, it really irks me when people who have never faced a real japanese beetle infestation lecture those who have tried everything organic and only then resort to a pesticide.

Some of the things I've tried with gusto over the past 8 years: Neem, red pepper spray, garlic spray, pepper wax, traps, soap spray, milky spore, beneficial nematodes, underplantings of everything imaginable, Surround, some other spray from Gardens Alive I forget the name of, leaf vac, "spread sheet under tree and shake, then hurry up and pick up beetles" method, plop into bucket of soapy water, and probably several other organic sprays I have long since forgotten. None of those made a dent.

I have pretty much given up on trying to erradicate JB. I noticed the hardy shrub roses and climbers like Zephirine seem to be ok since their peak blooming is well before and a little after the majority of thE JB infestation. However, I have a climbing Ballerenia that was just gorgeous this spring, it filled out nicely and the JB have decimated it; flowers and leaves. Next year I planned on planting some hybrid T and floribundas - but the JB will devour them. I may just stick to some more shrub roses....although I have wanted "Peace" for a long time.

bradarmi--
If there is just one rose you need to protect (I'm referring to your desired Peace), that might still be workable. For one rose, you could pick the blooms very early in the morning and take them inside until the JBs leave. Or buy some kind of netting to put over the one rose to protect it.

I wouldn't want to do that to a whole bunch of roses, but since you have one HT you really want, I don't think it would be that much work to protect it.

I should warn you, however. As beautiful as Peace it, it is a BS magnet.

Just a thought. Maybe those who battle major infestations of JBs have other thoughts on the subject.

Kate

I don't have many JB's, but when I do see one on the foliage I spray with Jungle Rain Clean Leaf Spray.

This is a new product that I'm trying, and I like it. It contains castile soap and citrus oils, almost no scent to it. It's not too heavy or oily.

It's available pre-mixed, very easy to use.

I don't understand how some people are able to cut buds and bring inside in order to save them from JBs. In my garden, the JBs are attracted to tight buds and buds just starting to show color. Cut at this point and put in a vase, the bud won't open. If I would wait til the bud starts to unfurl and will continue to open if cut, by then the JBs are all over it and have already chewed holes all through it.

What irkes me is when a person uses their "purported" lack of success controlling Japanese Beetles in environmentally responsible ways, as a justification for the irresponsible use of insecticides.

Spraying Bayer Rose & Flower Insect Killer on flowers is indefensible. This basic truth is unaltered whether some alternative treatment has worked, or not. Read the label, "highly toxic to bees".

And, you have to wonder if daily exposure to Imidacloprid might not lead to seizures in people, the way it has been reported with dogs?

I'm most unimpressed with this so-called "method".

Bill

Last year I filled 24 bags in one week - to the top where the bags attach to the plastic hangers. And that was only the beginning - it went on for six weeks! It is impossible to get them all by knocking them in soapy water or squishing or stomping them, etc. I used Grubex or something like that last year, but apparently it was at the wrong time since it was the worst year for JBs in my area. They get up too early for me to beat them to the buds and as Veilchen said, they are not even showing color before the JBs get them. If you only have a few or even a few hundred JBs, then you don't know what it is like to see them eat everything in sight. Roses, peaches, trees, crepe myrtles, Elephant Ears, even Zinnias! I only use pesticides (and any other kind of chemicals) when I have to. I live out in the country so milky spore is not an option as the whole neighborhood would have to use it. Give me an enviromentally safe way to get rid of thousands of the little monsters and I will be the first to jump on that bandwagon.

Williamcartwright, if the label is admissable evidence for the prosecution, "highly toxic to bees", then it's also admissable evidence for the defense, "Apply the product to flowering plants in the early morning or late evening when bees are not present".

I think modern insecticides are not a good thing and I think japanese beetles are a horrible problem and I don't have any solutions, but pronouncing judgement like a backwoods preacher condemning sin isn't helping anyone.

>>>Williamcartwright, if the label is admissable evidence for the prosecution, "highly toxic to bees", then it's also admissable evidence for the defense, "Apply the product to flowering plants in the early morning or late evening when bees are not present"***The problem is Mike, the lady specifically says she does not want to deal with JBs in the "early a.m. or after sundown...because I was busy doing other things these times of the day...[with] Bayer Rose & Flower Insect Killer...I can get them any time of the day". Read her post.

This is clearly against the directions, and a threat to bees. ***

>>>I think modern insecticides are not a good thing***No disagreement here***

>>>but pronouncing judgement like a backwoods preacher condemning sin isn't helping anyoneHuh? A "backwoods preacher"? Come on Mike, is this kind of name calling "helpful"? Is it better to be silent when irresponsible practices are advocated in public forums?

I think not.

Bill

Mr. Cartwright, I frequent another rose forum where you made similar posts and you were told by the moderators there that your posts regarding spraying were inflammatory and argumentative and wouldn't be tolerated. I would gladly link to that post but it is not allowed by that forum. So I know that this is not the first time that you have been told that the tone of your posts is not polite. Maybe you don't realize how you come across, but after having already being told the same thing somewhere else it is hard to believe.

I don't spray pesticides but honestly the tone of your posts does not further your cause. I dare say it probably hurts it. It is alright to disagree but it is not alright to be disagreeable. Mike did not call you a name. He said you were pronouncing judgement like a backwoods preacher and you were.

Sometimes if you are doing more harm than good, maybe it would be better to just be silent.

Carol

Heres a suggestion to catch JBs during the day when theyre highly mobile: I use at least 1 gal clear plastic bag and use my fingers to pinch the bag near the mid point, making it look like hour glass shape. The open end is spread out in a wide funnel shape. While holding the bag this way, I can use the funnel end to enclose a bloom or a leaflet with JBs from the top, side way or in any position. Then I use the fingers on the other hand to close the funnel end while shaking or pushing JBs into the bag and let them fall into the bottom of the bag. Hardly a JB escapes my catch this way. Some JBs on adjacent blooms may fly away while I work on a bloom, but they eventually come back, and after 4 rounds a day, they all end up in the bag. I can either dump them into a bucket or I just dispose the bag and use a new bag. I dont use the bucket with soap water to catch JB, but prefer to use the bag anytime of day. This past July 4th holiday during the height of JB infestation, I spent 3 continuous days, 4 times a day to catch more than 90% of them. After that it was a breeze.

Of course I cant use the bag to catch them on tall trees like crab apple or crepe myrtle, but I got nearly all of them before they moved on to the trees, and so the trees were saved.

I posted the netting method before to save the buds from JB until theyre ready to cut, using panty hose. Heres an illustration:

{{gwi:285374}}

I'm very pleased this year that I don't have a lot of JBs. They seem to have abandoned me! Only my Ebb Tide seemed to attract them. So I didn't have to spray. I have gotten used to squishing them with my bare hands, usually with the help of a rose petal to make it less icky.

But I have in previous years. And I did what was suggested here. Spray the beetles when they are out, usually in the late afternoon. The one year I had hundreds at a time I must have killed 1000 that year.

Believe me, there is not much left of a bloom after the JBs get to it, and nothing to attract bees. Cutting off what is left of the sprayed blooms is a great idea.

Also, I keep my butterfly garden in a separate area and it doesn't get sprayed with anything.

Carol, Im pleased to stand behind anything Ive written on this, or any other forum.

In the context of a discussion of declining membership in the ARS, I tried to explain why I am not a member, and tried to offer positive suggestions for how the ARS might restore itself.

Its true that several moderators on this "other forum" attacked me for this post, but frankly their behavior was quite out of bounds IMO.

Below is my post in its entirety so others can judge if it sounds "inflammatory":

I'm going to be very honest here...so I hope I don't upset people too much...but I think I'm exactly the kind of person the ARS should be attracting. I'm spending a lot of time expanding both my knowledge of roses, and my rose garden. I've been very blessed to correspond with serious and generous rosarians who have aided me on my path. I'm also pleased to have recently joined two heritage rose organizations.

But, unfortunately, I have very apprehensive feeling about the ARS. On any number of occasions I've tried going to several different local ARS rose society meetings and, sorry to say, have been shocked and dismayed at the "toxic" emphasis towards rose growing in the clubs. I'm sure that in each club the must have been individuals practicing more "earth-friendly" gardening, but I saw no evidence of such.

Instead of finding folks talking about how they were building their soils through good gardening practices, I got handed leaflets telling me when to apply pesticides and synthetic fertilizers. Honestly, I could not have felt my values were more antithetical to the methods being advocated. So, after trying more than a few times, I don't go back.

Now, from what I understand, the new president Steve Jones, is an "organic" guy. I pray that he (and others) can help reform the ARS. I think many people (me included) have seen the ARS as an environmentally unfriendly organization. I'm sorry to say this. I also know it may not be popular, but I'm saying this in spirit I hope will help. And as a person who otherwise would be a "natural" member of the ARS. I just believe unless the ARS changes its ways (quickly) there won't be younger people coming along to replenish the ranks.

The "Good Earth R.O.S.E. Care" approach is essential, in my opinion, if the ARS hope to remain a relevant organization in the future. But the ARS web-site doesn't even link to the "Good Earth" site, from the best I can tell (and I've looked hard).

I (for one) was, and am, very turned off by pesticide based gardening...especially here in almost disease-free Southern California.

I agree with Jeri that a PDF of the magazine would be a way to cut costs, and popular with some (especially if it reduced dues). I also believe an ARS online forum, such as this would attract new blood. There should also be "rosy recommendations" for every district, so new rose growers (non-members) have somewhere to find out what rose are proven for their area, rather than some "national" point system (which doesn't make much sense) and is hidden from "public" view.

Give people the information to help them grow beautiful roses in an earth-friendly way and the rose world and the ranks of the ARS will grow. Do none of the above, and it simply will not. And maybe it should not.

Bill

Mr. Cartwright, the problem is that you always believe that everyone else's behaviour is out of bounds but you don't seem to see that your own is sometimes out of bounds. I don't know you. You are probably a very nice man. I really believe that most everyone here is nice. Your posts are seen as argumentative and confrontational. Maybe you really don't see that but it causes hard feelings and these threads always turn into flame wars with hurt feelings and people leaving this forum. You have every right to your opinion and I think everyone knows how you feel about organic vs inorganic gardening. I don't choose to spray pesticides routinely but I found RRD in my garden this year and yes I did spray to kill the mites and stop the spread in my garden. Did I kill any bee's? I hope not but it is possible. Would I do it again? Yes, I would. The thing is that these people have a right to their opinions as well and I think that saying "hey, did you know that if you spray the way you are the consequences will be..." is sufficient without berating them and being unkind. We are all adults and no one here needs to be berated or talked to as if they are a child or are ignorant. I'm just not sure you realize how most people interpret your tone and words.

Carol

I understand Cartrights attitude. It is not cool to kill bees. It's all over the news how bees are disappearing. But I do understand about the JB. I have never had those. I think they would give me nightmares.

But people, making a bug free garden at the expense of Mother Earth is criminal in my mind.

While I am not here to favor organic or non organic gardening style I do care a lot about the bees. About spraying the blooms in evening or when bees not around: the poison is still in the blooms and on pollen when the bees will be visiting the next morning. Any body realizes that? The suggestion to cut off the spray blooms is excellent.
I understand what drive people to use insecticides. Still there are alternatives out there that you havent tried and may be worth trying.
From Carolfm: "I think that saying "hey, did you know that if you spray the way you are the consequences will be..." is sufficient without berating them and being unkind"
I agree that is the nice thing to say to anyone, especially to someone unknowingly spraying the bloom and not understanding the after effects. I think what provoked Bills response was based on the fact that Veilchen knew exactly what he/she did. I dont think it is good to argue back and forth about ones opinion and belief ending with name calling. Perhaps we all should use nicer words to all even for the people like Veilchen despite his/her point of view. So try harder folks.
BB

I agree with Bill about his feelings with the ARS. I am a national member, and I probably will continue to be, but as I was fertilizing all my Archduke Charles bushes today with Rose Tone and some compost, I had lots of time to let my mind wander.

What a coincidence! I was thinking today about how several of the ARS publications were all about spray, spray, spray. I have rarely seen anything at all about growing heritage roses, or with integrating some organic methods into our rose growing. I think there need to be some big changes, because we are not all interested in being on spray programs and showing roses. I grow roses to enjoy myself and have a pretty yard. In other words, the ARS has a narrow mindset in a rose world that has a lot more facets to it. I want nice roses, but I personally do not want chemical exposure. Therefore, I am chosing to grow what will tolerate my method of growing roses. The ARS has not been helping me with that so far.

I saw evidence of leaf cutter bees today, as many of my rose leaves attested. I was worried because normally I see this activity a whole lot sooner than this. I also saw zillions of baby butterflies. They were drawn to the compost for some reason. I finally have some balance back in my yard, and I am not interested in messing that up, despite the thrips problems we have here. Our thrips issues can rival any Japanese Beetle issue, believe me! I've lived in the North, and now in the South. Every area has something.

By the way, I didn't find Bill's post about the ARS inflammatory at all.

Sandy

Bill, I agree with you concerning the ARS narrow focus. Their push for a heavy spray schedule is the very thing that keeps people from wanting to grow roses. They read about all the spraying roses "need" and quit before they start!
Why doesn't the ARS, which is supposed to be primarily concerned with ROSES, not toxics, change their priority to encouraging breeders to develope disease resistant roses (that are also FRAGRANT, for gosh sakes!)and work on a public education program for organic alternatives for controlling insect invasions?

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the more chemicals the better. I don't belong to ARS and don't show roses, so I don't know what drives them.

It is good to make people aware of the real threat of insecticides but without the accusatory words. It is not good to exaggerate and to chastise people. That usually works to make them more stubborn and not listen.

A lot of people are not aware of the long term effects of using insecticides, simply because they are inexperienced, and no on ever told them. I've noticed most places that sell the products want to do just that-sell the products. I've witnessed customers being told they are "harmless". I've heard sales curse out the EPA for removing "the good stuff"- products that they still want to sell. I think there must be a nice profit margin involved. What worries me is not just the environmental concerns, but the exposure that persons' body is getting.

I agree with educating people in a nice way. Most people that frequent the forum are looking for information, and get hurt feelings if things are not stated in a positive way. This is normal human nature. However, there will always be some that have the "entitlement" way of thinking and do not care one iota about anything that goes against what they want to do, or the consequences to anything or anyone else. I tend to be quite blunt with those kind of people, but I doubt we'll ever be able to change them. It's the same attitude I'm seeing on the highways today, and it usually results in bad things.

Roseleaf, your photo and explanation are very helpful. I'm going to copy that in case I ever have to deal with the little demons, or something similar. Now if they could only come up with a safe cure for thrips.....

Sandy, I like the bag method to catch flies that got indoors instead of smashing them and making a mess on furniture surfaces, etc...And in the garden, I can catch many bugs like caterpillar, katydid and so on that can fit in the bag and release them somewhere if I dont want to hurt them. I also use the bag to transplant beneficial insects like spiders and assassin bugs from the woods to the roses. Over two decades of gardening, Ive not found a need to use insecticides and my garden has been in a state of nice balance except the JB nuisance which I also can deal w/o using insecticides.

The chili thrips in Florida is something else I would take 4-5 weeks of JB than to deal with the thrips year round down there. I would think garden spiders can control chili thrips well as they stay put on the plants. They hide mostly underside of leaves or within the petals. They do a fine job to control many other bad insects and thrips in my garden. Maybe you can experiment by planting more spiders to see if they help.

veilchen I am so glad your strategy is working. I know how plagued you've been with beetles detroying so much in your gardens.

Bill Cartright I thought you came to a meeting of the minds w/veilchen in previous threads about this subject. Anyway, the thread is about Japanese Beetles & NOT YOU. State your opinon LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO but please STOP ATTACKING VEILCHEN. She has stated repeatedly throughout YEARS on GW (many threads in which you have participated) that she arrived at the decision to spray after great thought & YEARS of failed organic methods. She is an extremely conscientious gardener & for you to pretend otherwise when you know better from participating in other threads w/her is disingenuous at best.

I live in the same area as Veil (I should snap a few pics of the newest dead linden trees on my street for your bee-hugging viewing pleasure). I have resorted to spraying too this year & so far most of my plants look healthy compared to the rape & pillaging they've suffered in past years from the JB infestations. Ironically, I have more bees than ever who are getting their fill from my lavender & sage (nothing I need to spray).

JBs *might* not kill by eating all the leaves, but they can kill by feeding on roots of plants & trees as well as defoliation. Until you actually SEE a Japanese Beetle, I'll be more inclined to take advise from the people who've been there.

People who resort to spray: please don't feel like you need to be on the defensive. Most of us know you didn't arrive at that method willy nilly (including Mr Cartwright).

A lot of people are not aware of the long term effects of using insecticides, simply because they are inexperienced, and no on ever told them

LOL!!! Yeah, Veilchen is really inexperienced.

Meharty, with all due respect, I have never "attacked" Velchen. Simply never happened. Reads my posts.

I spoke only to substantive issues, and expressed my reasoning clearly.

I believe spraying flowers with Imidacloprid is unconscionable. Bayer Rose & Flower Insect Killer is "highly toxic" to bees, says so on the label. It also says on the label NOT to spray it mid-day when bees are out.

The method advanced by the thread-starter (to spray 2 or 3 times a day, or when ever JBs are present at mid-day) is a direct contravention of the manufactures guidelines, and is in my opinion an irresponsible use of an insecticide.

Roseleaf, I seem to have lots of different spiders, and I do think they help, but the problem is pretty severe here. I'm hoping that by waiting it out a bit things will eventually balance out. I've decided that the roses most affected by them will have to go, unless it's a rose that I absolutely love. Fortunately, there aren't that many "bad" ones. I noticed several of the heritage roses are only affected in cycles (unlike several of my modern hybrid teas). I almost wonder if they give off a chemical when under attack that sends the thrips packing.

For those of you that are still being very nasty, I think it's time to chill out. I listened to enough ridiculous strife when I was raising teenagers.

Just to clarify, lest any of you think I'm going out there 2-3 x day spraying my roses willy nilly like wc implies--like I said, I spray beetles, not roses. Sometimes the beetle is on a leaf, sometimes it's on a closed bud, and sometimes on an opened flower. If said open flower gets sprayed so be it.

Thanks for your understanding, mehearty. Yes, I will take wc's musings with a grain of salt until the day comes he's hit with a plague of JBs and still insists on organics.