They get very wide, and I think that 8 feet from a porch is not enough.

The nursery owner said I can prune it to keep it the size I want.... Are there downsides to that?

Non-dwarf forms may grow 50' wide in time on a suitable site. Whacking back is not an option on a dogwood of this type, it ruins the beauty of the otherwise elegant branch structure. It's always better to choose a plant that will naturally remain more or less in scale anyway.

Flowering dogwoods are best served by minimal pruning. Heading back or pruning cuts other than branch removal are generally met with a response that produces multiple shoots at that point, creating a very unattractive medusa-like effect.

As bboy states, it is far better to select a plant/tree that will remain in scale and size-appropriate to its location without the need for regular pruning to keep that size in check.

Thank you. It never ceases to amaze me how much misinformation is given out by the people that work at the nurseries around here. I asked all of these questions, and got completely differnent (sometimes snippy) answers. Ie: Regarding my putting a big tree in a small spot question... I got "Well, you get your hair cut right? Uh, it's the same thing for a tree---just keep it the size you want" Even as a newbie I knew it can't be that simple.

Thanks again for the information :)

Unfortunately, there is no requirement for horticultural knowledge to work in a nursery :-) Some do have knowledgeable, experienced staff, others not. And their intent is to sell plants, not necessarily to provide accurate info about them. Too bad most haven't figured out the two go hand in hand - the better your customers are educated to provide the correct growing conditions and therefore the better the success they will have with their plants, the more likely they are to come to you to purchase more.

It's not a big tree, and one 50' wide might be 50 years or more old. But it sounds like it still may not be what you had in mind. And cutting back trees to keep them unnaturally small is acceptable to those who do not care if their victims live long and healthy lives, in a state attractive to those who appreciate it. What, exactly can be done with each kind does vary.

There are some smaller cultivars around and in zone 5 they do grow slower. Some may never get a 16' spread (Cornus kousa 'Little Beauty'). Was this a named cultivar?

tj

Ooh! "Little Beauty" could work right? Except what exactly is a "sheltered location" (having my porch/house 8 ft. or so away.... is that 'sheltered' enough?)

Also, Can anyone find a picture of one? I have done all sorts of image searches and have come up short.

Another option might be a hydrangea tree? Limelight?
Or a crabapple tree....

what direction does the porch face ...

if it faces south.. then that is full exposure.. if north. the opposite ...

i always look for the owner.. or the manager.. when needing specific answers at a nursery ... otherwise you are at the whim of a barely minimum wage grunt.. who may or may not know the answer ...

i do NOT grow dogwoods in my z5 ... they die ... but the few i tried with were the foo foo ones ... perhaps the natives would do better ...

if you drive the country roads at bloom time.. you can see very large plants in the woods ... 8 feet is probably not far enough ...

have you researched white flowering redbud ....

i am beginning to hate my crabs.. all those darn suckers.. and dropped fruit.. and diseased leaves ... dont know if i would want one right next to the front door ...

ken

Yes, I had discounted the crabs because of the fruit...
I think the dogwood dream will have to die too. If you can't grow one in zone 5 what the heck am *I* thinking? LOL

The area faces east (6 hours morning sun and late afternoon shade.)

A limelight hydrangea would probably be fine, but I have a kyushu hydrangea on the other side, and really wanted something different (and a bit taller) so it didn't end up being too symmetrical.

How about Japanese tree Lilac? That was my other thought, but is the size similar to the dogwood (bringing me back to the old issue about to prune or not to prune to keep it in check?)

I know the simple solution would just be to move the bed out a lot away from the house, but I have 3 kids who love to play baseball in the front yard.... ah, the sacrifices we make for them....

There's a new Kousa named "Samaritan" that is supposed to be hardier in zone 5. It has variegated foliage that they say doesn't burn in sun. Gets 18-20 ft. tall and 15 ft. wide. Rarefindnursery.com is sold out currently & Forestfarm.com has it to web order. I wish I'd got it, myself!! Here's a link to info:
http://www.rarefindnursery.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/4236.htm

Just wanted to add my generic kousa isn't sheltered AT ALL and does just fine. It has endured 3 years of drought in zone 7 (that killed my crabapple) with just a little supplemental water when it gets very droopy.
It was around 3-4' when bought and after 5 years is only 6' high & 5' wide.
My kousa's blooms start out greenish-white, then white for the vast majority of the bloom time, which lasts an amazingly long time. The length of bloom more than makes up for any "shortcomings" of its form. I'm more partial to the Yoshino cherries form, but the bloom time of those is SO maddingly short!!!!
Then when bloom's about done the petals turn an attractive pink tinge (somewhat like a hydrangea's faded bloom) for a very short time. I absolutely love my kousa.

My Cornus kousa 'Satomi' has lived eight years in a zone 5 and seen -20F without a problem. What zone 5 are you in? Not all zones are created equal.

tj

I'm in Cleveland, Ohio. Oh, just when I think I've let the Cornus kousa dream die they pull me back in! LOL Sue--you are making me want to give it a try.

I'm having a hard time finding the Samaritan in my area, but I've only called a few places....

There's still that issue of a 'sheltered location'... it'll only have my front porch as any shelter if that even counts.

There are hundreds of kinds of crabs so when you start to generalize it may not be correct. Dwarf, weeping, purple, fruitless, fragrant, disease-resistant are all attributes that may be found in flowering crabs. Sometimes several of these in one variety.

The cultivar name for the dogwood is 'Samarzam', because it's a Lake County (J. Zampini) nursery introduction: Samaritan zampini.

See their web site.

Here's a link to Lake County Nursery that shows another great Kousa intro that looks even better than "Samaritan" (Samzan). The Rare Finds Nursery has it in stock for $55 and shipping to you would probably be around $30. But it's recommended you plant these kousas in spring.
http://www.lakecountynursery.com/GALILEANpdf.pdf

Again, I don't think a "sheltered location" is an issue. It's true that here in Virginia, dogwoods in the wild grow mainly in sheltered locations as understory trees, but homeowners plant them everywhere in full sun with no problem. They flower better in sun and have much less disease issues there.

One will always get better performance from a plant if it is planted in the conditions it prefers. While it is true that many dogwoods are planted in very exposed locations, they don't necessarily have the same appearance or lushness of foliage and flowers than do those in more suitable, somewhat shaded or protected locations. Even in my very northerly location with relatively weak summer sun, fully exposed dogwoods droop and flag in full sun despite the amount of supplemental moisture they receive. And disease issues are far less of a concern with kousas than they are with eastern OR western dogwoods.

Ah, I am new to this (obviously--trying to take a crash course in it over the past few weeks) and the one thing I have learned for sure is: Nothing is black and white when it comes to gardening. Drives someone like me crazy! But I suppose it's good for the soul--- the gray that is. I think in the end for a newbie like myself the dogwood is probably too risky and I will most likely go with a Japanese tree lilac. Thanks again for all of your input and wisdom--it is much appreciated!

joannemb,
Since nobody has answered your question about exposure I will give it a shot. Exposure often refers to strong persistent drying winds/sun. If a plant is planted at the top of a hill that is battered by strong persistent cold north winds most all winter long, then that is exposed. IF it planted between houses where the wind funnels, then that is exposed. If there is a wall, hill, tree, or some structure that blocks this wind, it would be sheltered.

In you particular case, we have no indication on the wind, but that it is on the east side seems that there would be some shelter, but that is no means certain. As for 6 hours of sun, I would saw that is a non-issue. I am in NW Arkansas with much stronger summer sun, and our Milky Way Kousa is doing just fine, and it's even a planting that been in the ground since last year. It's full,green, and dense, and receives sun until about 4 PM. A local botanical garden has a Milky Way Kousa planted in 100% sun, and it's doing fine, and flowers profusely.

So if the site does not have have a wind problem, then you probable can plant a kousa without problem. You may want to look at the smaller forms, but even that I would not worry too much about. At worst the tree will grow to the side of the house and stop there on that side.

JMHO
Arktrees

Japanese tree lilacs are gorgeous, too! And being hardy to zone 3, that should ease your mind!

Thank you all for the suggestions/information. And Sue, thanks for the encouraging words on Japanese tree lilac....I think I'm leaning that way.

I've had kousas in two gardens- both zone 5. The one in my old garden has been there 20 years and still looks fine. Definitely not "sheltered" The one in my "new" garden has been in 5 years, doubled in size and seems happy.

idabean--what kind of sun does it get? Morning? How many hours? What state are you in? I go back and forth between going with what I know is a safe bet, and what I really have my heart set on... :)

joannemb- This guy is just up the road from you in Geneva, OH. Give them a call. Although their specialty is conifers, they do carry a few Cornus kousas (more than available via mailorder) and they'll tell you how they do in your area. Ask them if they have any mature specimens in their gardens. You could make a field trip and get hooked on conifers too.

tj

Here is a link that might be useful: Girard's

Wow--thank you everyone for the suggestions! I did call the Lake County nursery about their "Biblical series" after Sue mentioned the "Galilean." The man there was obviously knowledgable about the trees since he grows them (in zone 5) and these particular trees are hardy to zone 4. I think I'm going to go with a variety called "Prophet" (similar to Galilean, but with smaller bracts.) Samzan (as another had suggested has variated leaves--which I'm not as partial to.)

It really is amazing to me how a "dogwood" can be so many things. Is it an American Dogwood, or a Japanese? If it's a Japanese, there are a hundred or so varieties to choose from to suit your needs. How big do you want the flowers to bloom? How big do you want the flowers to be? How disease resistant? So many factors to look at before choosing. I didn't realize going in that there are actually different cultivars of the kousa. No one at the local nurseries ever mentioned that---it was simply: Here's a kousa, and here's a florida. Which one do you prefer?

Thanks again for sharing all of your knowledge here---I have learned so much from you all.

joannemb, it's been a year since this discussion took place. If you're still around, can you give us an update?

I've had three Kousa (presumably grown from seed) in zone 5 part shade since '78. Two are vase-shaped and the third has horizontal branching. Two have done very well and the third has done just OK over the years. We've had some extreme conditions since they were planted and they've proven to be very tolerant.

An update. I've removed the two vase-shaped Kousa dogwoods. They had suffered from a couple of droughts and were in sad shape. The horizontal-branching Kousa still looks very good. It has lost a couple of branches over the years and isn't as nicely shaped as it was, but it bloomed very heavily this year after having virtually no bloom last year. A couple of seedlings I transplanted are finally taking off nicely. Again, the droughts in recent summers were hard on them, but they look great for being nor more than two feet tall at this point.

This discussion is exactly what I need!

I need something that is beautiful all year. I've discounted a crab apple because of the suckering. Too windy for a Kousa Dogwood. Too sunny for a Flowering Dogwood. Don't want roots that will cause problems for the other plants. I had a Japanese Tree Lilac at my other house that was a spreading, pretty form (some people don't like the smell of the flowers, so you may not want to plant one close to a porch). I can't find one now that looks like that - I find only "Ivory Silk" which are upright and not the nice form my other tree was. I also need to keep pruning in mind as I try to chose a small tree - it gets harder as I get older. I already have three Downy Serviceberry trees (Amelenchiar canadensis) and may just have to just get more of those. Serviceberries are small trees with open branching and have a beautiful fall colour. I love them but wanted something different !

I bought a kousa dogwood last year and it not only hasn't bloomed but it's growing tall but not at all wide. It's really quite ugly right now. It's about 11' and only about 3'wide. What am I doing wrong?

Takes some time for kousas to develop that wide, layered habit. Also seed grown kousas are known to be slow bloomers.

You are not doing anything wrong......you just need to be patient. Some trees just take their own sweet time with things :-)

Here is Cornus kousa ''Samaritan' growing in high shade. This is a recent pic.

Hydrangea white wedding would be gorgeous in your white English garden