First, I am (was) a certified arborist - I'm now too old to climb but know the profession. An honest arborist does't mind competition if it is fair. Perhaps you should have been very specific in asking for the bid, "arm-waving" the things that you saw and wanted and questioned. The next thing is - get three DETAILED bids. Arborists can all bid tree work differently if the detailed specifics aren't laid out. Some will bid "cheap" (and be fast to do the minimum and leave), some will bid all of the things that the tree really needs, and some will try to take you to the cleaners. And thirdly, on an old tree, one thunderstorm can expand cracking areas and cause more drooping of branches.
I think it is great that you are trying to save this tree, but with that age, size and girth (and thorniness) you may spend a fortune only to watch it decline soon after because of its dwindling lifespan.
It can't be said from a distance that either you or the company is wrong. You might get a couple of other companies to look at the tree and judge if more work is truly worth it.
hortster

Thank you Horster.

I DID point out exactly what I wanted done when the estimator was here. I was very detailed. The bid was short -- each plant was listed, but a notation of what to do and a price. I chose to have them do just the Hawthorne now because it was necessary, and I thought I could get the others done more cheaply. As it turns out, I've already done three of the others myself.

I expected one thing, the workers made it clear they would not do what I expected, and the estimator, on the phone, told me I should have read the bid more clearly.

Frankly, I think I'm screwed, because today the owner wouldn't even agree to take the cracked limb down. Who would pay to have a big old tree pruned, and not want a limb with a huge crack in it removed? Nuts!

I'll have to get the other company out here to help me.

You suggest the Hawthorne is nearing the end of its life. I hadn't thought of that. This house was built in 1890. I suspect the Hawthorne may be that old. The trunk is a good two-feet in diameter, and it's more than 40 feet high.

What kind of a life expectancy does a Hawthorne have?

Rain2Fall

Its life span is relative to its growing condtions and consistent exposure to various diseases and insects...which Hathorns are plagued by. Not as much by the newer cultivars.

If English Hawthron is really 40ft high...its gotta be near its end. English Hawthorns typical mature at 20', maybe 30'.

You can see a Hawthorn go for about 50 years...I'll tell you that Hawthron was not planted in 1890, lol.

Those thorns are extremely dangerous, I was pruning a lower branch of one, slipped and logged a 2" thorn right under my wrist...they don't pull out easy, extremely painful!!

LOL. What do you mean "if it really is 40 feet high"... ? Do you think I'm lying, or just cannot measure?

Rain2Fall

If the arborist is ISA certified (hopefully, you did confirm that) and you believe he is acting in an unethical manor, you can contact the ISA at the link below. If you click on "Enter the ISA Website" and scroll down to the "Certification News" section, you'll see a "Code of Ethics" link. That link will allow you to review the ISA's Code of Ethics and file a complaint if needed.

Here is a link that might be useful: ISA Website

LOL. What do you mean "if it really is 40 feet high"... ? Do you think I'm lying, or just cannot measure?

Neither, English Hawthorns typically mature at 20'. Its not impossible that you have a 40' English Hawthorn, but rare. In fact you might have a national champion on your hands.

LOL. National Champion -- The arborist suggested I nominate the tree for the Historic Tree program. Now I learn it's near the end of its life.

The owner of the company said he could see cracks on limbs throughout the canopy. Shouldn't they have mentioned that before I paid to have it pruned? I would have asked if it was worth keeping the tree.

It is indeed 40 feet or more; the roof ridge is 30 feet, and the tree extends about 10 feet beyond that.

Brandon -- Thank you for the link. I did not confirm "ISA certified" -- I just confirmed "licensed." I may have to use it. Right now, I just want them to cut off the limb with the huge crack. I can see sky through that crack.

Rain2Fall

Unfortunately, being licensed doesn't necessarily imply significant knowledge or significant professionalism. When seeking someone who knows what they are doing and is likely to have the experience and professionalism to make you happy, verify ISA certification. If you've got a dead tree out in the middle of the field and you just want it cut down but don't want to do it yourself, then go to the plain old licensed and insured arborists.

I don't know if you can trust any ISA Arborist that comes along either. Tree trimmers are in business to make money...ISA certified or not.

I doubt 50 years is an automatic death knell for a hawthorn. Quite a short term for any tree. What color are the flowers? Loaded with berries sounds like common hawthorn (Crataegus monogyna). This is actually a weed species in this region, sometimes popping up in great numbers to form thorny thickets. Otherwise it can be a pleasant landscape specimen, with abundant flowers and fruits, and a graceful branching habit.

For results returned giving dimensions etc. (click on Details links for each) of the two national champions currently listed (I am the finder of the WA tree)...

Here is a link that might be useful: Search The National Register of Big Trees

The 64 foot tall (70 feet by 2002) English hawthorn and 38 foot tall Siberian hawthorn are the largest known of their kind on earth!

Here is a link that might be useful: Trees of Volunteer Park

Great links! It is indeed Crataegus monogyna. The estimator came back today and looked at the cracked branch that he saw the first day he was here and told me would come out; he didn't want to take it out now because then yet another! cracked branch just above it will have to come out, and then maybe the whole south half of the tree!

Now why didn't he tell me that when he first made the estimate?

He said he didn't see the other cracked limbs. But they were there, and not hidden by other branches or limbs. It was just a big, heavy, dark canopy. Most of the thick, dense growth was at the outer ends of the limbs, not near the trunk, where these cracks are.

The owners and the estimator are "deciding" what to do. Every time I talk to their company, I get new or different information.

I've finally remembered the name of the arborist that I was so happy when six years ago. I called and they'll come out late next week.

My goal is to keep the tree healty and looking good, while eliminating as much as possible the danger of limbs coming down in wind or ice this winter, damaging the house or taking out the electricity.

The estimator today said he "thought" I didn't want any work done in the crown. I don't know where he got that idea. I certainly wouldn't have said that, because I expected some work in the crown. He "thought" I only wanted the heavy branches off the ground.

For sure there was miscommunication. They didn't help matters by suggesting I wanted a low-ball bid and was just trying to get extra work done for free.

I'll report back next week just in case anybody's interested. I'm interested in hearing what the "good" tree company has to say.

Rain2Fall
Out on a (Cracked) Limb in Oregon

I checked the Big Trees Champion registry and my hawthorn is on it! It measured 54 feet high in 1997; so I'd say it's about 65 feet high now.

As for the miscommunications from the arborist -- they have apparently decided not to decide whether they should prune the broken limb as they promised on their first visit.

Rain2Fall

Rain2Fall,

Have you considered filing a report with the BBB? It may not help much, but you never know. I recently dealt with a business that ripped me off and didn't seem to care. The employees came across as very rude when I tried to get the money, they owed me, back. Even the owner seemed unconcerned and wouldn't return a single call. After reporting to the BBB, the situation changed quickly. The owner even started being very nice and actually took full blame for what happened. I don't know if he just wasn't getting the whole picture before or what, but things were resolved fairly quickly once I filed a report.

A lot of people probably don't check with the BBB before hiring someone, but some people do. Your report of this Bozo arborist might save someone some aggravation in the future.

Which particular tree list is yours on? If it is listed by American Forests under the wrong species whoever is the coordinator for Oregon should be alerted to that.

Unfortunately, if it has multiple major limbs splitting apart it may in fact be on the way out. It depends on the specifics involved. Perhaps there is even some potential for successful cabling of it to hold it together, keep it going for some time longer.

I don't think I'd want to cable it. It's a Hawthorn. If it can't make it on its own, I'll take it out. It's on the Oregon Big Trees list. Im might give the Forestry Dept. a call.

The estimator came back after my complaint to look at the cracked limb, as well as another next to it that is also badly cracked, which he failed to tell me about when he first made the estimate. I asked (1) why they hadn't taken down the cracked limb as promised; and (2) why they hadn't told me about the neighboring cracked limb.

He said they couldn't see the second cracked limb because the tree was so overgrown. I don't believe him. Both of these limbs are cracked near the crotch, and both crotches are about 10-12 feet up, directly off the trunk. It doesn't look like any other major limbs were obscuring the cracked areas, as confirmed by the pruning cuts. There were some water spouts on the first limb that have now been removed. Most of the thick heavy growth was at the extremities of the limbs, weighing those limbs down to the ground.

Here's a key piece of information: THE ESTIMATOR DID NOT WALK ABOUT THE TREE.

I was by his side the whole time. He stayed on the east side of the trunk, near the house, and mentioned the one cracked limb branching to the south, and the limbs pressing on the electrical cables to the north.

Fortunately for me, I have not yet paid their bill. I'll wait until my real arborist comes on Friday to find out the truth about what this tree needs. I'll deduct that amount from the unpaid bill and send them the rest. They did work, and deserve payment for the part they did correctly.

SHOULDN'T AN ESTIMATOR WALK AROUND A TREE?color>

Rain2fALL

"Fortunately for me, I have not yet paid their bill. I'll wait until my real arborist comes on Friday to find out the truth about what this tree needs. I'll deduct that amount from the unpaid bill and send them the rest. They did work, and deserve payment for the part they did correctly."

So cool!!!! LOL

"SHOULDN'T AN ESTIMATOR WALK AROUND A TREE?"

Only if they were going to give you an estimate for tree work, and maybe right before climbing up into the canopy to check for things like cracked limbs. LOL. I'm still excited that you haven't paid them!!!!

The new arborist company came out today to look at the Hawthorne. They saw some problems with the pruning job:

(1) The two cracked limbs (cracks more than 18 inches long, with sky visible through one)
(2) Stubs left on branches up to several inches beyond the collar;
(3) Ripped cuts
(4) Branches cut at skinny laterals

They did not believe the prior arborist's story that he "couldn't see" the cracked limbs. They disagreed with the prior arborist's explanation of "trim" vs. "lift."

They told me the Colorado blue spruce that is starting a second leader could be pruned and retrained to a single leader. (The first arborist said it couldn't be done).

They told me that 1-2 inch stubs on the Dawn Redwood should be trimmed closer to the collar. (The prior arborist said always leave a stub so the cut can heal).

The new arborist was surprised that the first outfit wouldn't use a ladder to address some of the problems at 10-15 feet.

BTW, the new arborist is the same company I used a few years ago and was so pleased with. I had forgotten their name, and hired the wrong company by mistake. The new arborist will come out and finish up the job in a week or so.

This is enough information for me to feel confident that the first arborist did not do a good enough job, and that the misunderstanding was not all on my side. I think they handled it badly when they accused me of trying to get "more work for free," and making excuses about "not being able to see" the cracks, and refusing to return my calls and refusing to come out and take down the cracked limb.

I don't know how much I should pay the first company. I'm thinking 50-75 percent of their bill. Does that sound fair?

Rain2Fall

Can you get the second company to provide you with something in writing that explains the deficiency in the other company's work (probably not, but just wondering)?

Will the second company give you an "off the record" suggestion of what the other company's work was worth?

I would not pay them anything.

An arborist that says they left a stub so the wound can heal is out of their mind.

It DELAYS the healing process, which in turn leaves the door open for insect and disease problems.

Why would these folks cut your tree and not collect payment soon as they're done?

I don't cut trees, but we frequently get half down, half when we're done on jobs.