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rrvenezia

Concrete vs. BlackTop Driveway

14 years ago
We currently have a very old and cracked concrete driveway and are in the process of a major renovation project which will allow us to replace the driveway. We love the look of concrete but have been told it's expensive and not practical for the weather conditions in central NJ. Which material provides the most durability for the money? Thanks!
Lake House on the Cliff · More Info
Featured Answer
  • PRO
    14 years ago
    last modified: 14 years ago
    Hello rrvenezia,

    The reason why concrete is getting uneven and broken is not the concrete its self. In most cases it is the insufficient performed preparation work before the concrete was installed.

    Outside you have freeze thaw during the winter months. This means, the frost goes under "normal" winter conditions until 2 feet deep into the ground. It depends on how many degrees Celsius it is under zero degree continues frozen.

    And this is the reason why concrete cracks. The "ground" below the concrete expand when it freezes. This process lifts up your driveway and the concrete gets smaller or bigger cracks. When it's getting warmer, the "ice" underneath the concrete melt's and the concrete go's usually back to its "normal" position. However the concrete has now cracks where the water will go in.

    Now imagine: The water will penetrate the cracks and remain in it. And everytime when it freezes again, the water in the cracks expands and brakes the concrete a bit more. This is why the surface getting uneven and broken.

    Therefore it is essential to build the 'concrete-bed" properly, so that the frost can't freeze the ground below the concrete and lift the driveway up! To achieve this you have to dig out your driveway about 2 1/2 feet, fill the pit with gravel (not sand!) and, THEREAFTER you can install the concrete or the paving stone. The 2 1/2 foot gravel acts like a "dry zone" where no water can remain. So this area can't freeze and expand and your "concrete or paving stone installation" can not lift up.

    Notice: Don't dig out your driveway more than needed and then fill it off again with loose soil! If you do so, the loose soil has to be properly compressed before you do anything further. Otherwise it will be later compressed by the weight of your driveway which will result in sinking.

    Regards,

    3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
    Maple Ridge, BC (Greater Vancouver)
    http://www.3D-Tile-Design.ca

    Comments (32)

    • PRO
      14 years ago
      I Bet Pavers are a better option and can be relaid if there is a Sunken patch or other minor problem .
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      The least expensive driveway option is asphalt (bituminous). I don't agree that concrete is not practical in New Jersey, but it is a few dollars more per square foot. Installed properly with the right sub base, reinforcing and control joints, it will out perform asphalt with much less maintenance.

      In Minneapolis, Minnesota where this house was built, concrete is used a lot. This driveway is a slate patterned concrete, and has held up really well. It cost a few dollars per square foot more than typical smooth concrete.

      Personally, I had a concrete driveway for almost 20 years, and replaced it with pavers. The cost was about the same as patterned concrete, but as the other gentleman noted, it is easily repairable. It has been down for 8 years and looks great. For most of our homes, we recommend pavers considering aesthetics and life cycle cost.

      Thanks,
      Steve Kleineman
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      I would look into pavers as well. I worked on a house that had snow Jan thru May, the asphalt gets sinks holes every winter and the down side of concrete is cracks. The asphalt on the house I am familiar with has to be slurried about every summer, sometimes there is a mild winter and it can go two seasons. Pavers are really just beautiful and a bit more maintenance friendly. Hope that helps. Charmean Neithart
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      Large driveway: blacktop - have the paving contractor roll stone dust on top while asphalt is still hot.

      Smaller driveway: Can't beat reinforced concrete. Consider adding a color additive so that stains are less obvious. My experience is that pavers require most maintenance and also discolor at different rates according to the degree of exposure to the sun.
    • 14 years ago
      As a designer, I have seen so many problems with both ashpalt and concrete. So I always recommend pavers. There are colors and sizes to accent any architectual style and if something goes wrong, it is an easy and inexpensive fix.
    • 14 years ago
      last modified: 14 years ago
      We are in northern Ohio in the snow belt, and we love our concrete driveway (we used stained concrete, but not stamped). We had an asphalt driveway for 15 years and hated it. It always looked terrible, got cracks and pits in it, constantly needed resealing, and basically just looked dark and depressing. As our back windows look out on part of the driveway, I can't tell you what a relief it is to look out on the pale sandstone concrete color (which looks more like a patio) rather than pitted black asphalt. The concrete driveway is now five years old and looks like new--not the tiniest hint of a crack.
      Pavers are also a wonderful choice, though they are more expensive.
    • 14 years ago
      I'm in Southeast Michigan with an asphalt driveway. It is solid and usable but cosmetically ugly with cracks that we have to clear of grass and fill over and over, and one sinkhole that we have to keep filling. It needs sealing at least every other year, a messy job. Our stamped concrete patio is going on year 7 and no cracks.
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      last modified: 14 years ago
      In Minneapolis, Minnesota, temps can get below zero more than 20 days during the winter, and 20 below in a given day. It can also get to high 90's and over 100, 30 days or more. Extremes. It is unrealistic to excavate 2 1/2 feet down under the driveway.

      Typically, we put in 11" of compacted class 5 Limestone base and 1" of sand under pavers or concrete or asphalt. It allows water to drain under the finished surface. The depth of the sub base varies with the type of soil conditions. A soil that drains easily like sand would not need as much depth.

      Thanks,
      Steve Kleineman
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      With a driveway of that size, brick pavers would be, in my opinion, the best choice to visually scale down the size of the driveway by the use of pattern. They are also easier to repair in settled areas and do not fade like concrete pavers do over time. Concrete will crack eventually and asphalt is constant maintenance. N. Callaghan, Callaghan Design, Ltd.
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      last modified: 14 years ago
      Hello Steve,

      You wrote: "It is unrealistic to excavate 2 1/2 feet down under the driveway." It may be unrealistic in your area, however this is the code in the region in Germany where I grow up. (550 meter above sea level) Temps over there can get 20 degree Celsius below zero and this over a period more than 20 days in a row (not just in a given day) during the winter. Therefore all water lines must to be buried at least 3 feet deep in the ground.

      We don't have any sand over there we only have a thick layer of clay over rocks. And this layer is permanently wet and drains no water at all. If we would build a driveway like you mentioned it would 100% fail in the first winter.

      And If some contractors would build their concrete installation a bit more on the "safety side" and not just EXACT by code, not so many driveways would crack. If concrete is installed properly it last almost forever without any cracks in the surface. If there are any cracks in it, then is something wrong with the installation!

      Regards,

      3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
      Maple Ridge, BC (Greater Vancouver)
      http://www.3D-Tile-Design.ca

      Picture left: This is the right gravel for a concrete base. It stops/brakes the capillary action.
      Picture right: In this gravel is to much sand It does not stop/brake the capillary action!
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      Get a bid on pavers. We were looking at concrete as well. Cost was a big factor for us, and we went with pavers, so they are surprisingly affordable, and absolutely beautiful.
    • 14 years ago
      I never expected to receive this much discussion and am pleased to know that the Houzz community does provide sound advice. The original concrete driveway lasted over 45 years without cracking in the midNJ region. However, in 2000 we did a major property regrading and terracing project. Unfortunately, the gravel, stone and paver contractors decided to use the driveway as a dumping ground for tons of products which resulted in the significant cracking and erosion over the last 12 years. We are now undertaking a major construction project and decided to bite the bullet and get the driveway replaced. As one cost-cutting measure our PM suggested asphalt instead of the combination concrete/paver driveway we wanted. Based on the Houzz suggestions I plan to go with the combo c/p and not the blacktop...looks and stability are definitely important despite the additional expense. The current driveway is approximately 3800 sf and the plan is to reuse most of the pavers from our terracing project for the apron, sides and some decorative designs near the garages. We were originally quoted around US$50K but the estimate continues to creep upwards (ostensibly due to the increasing fuel and disposal costs). Is there a benchmark or rough estimate that can be reliably used to estimate the cost for our project? Again, thanks for all your assistance!!
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      Bertram,

      I understand that in a climate like you described in Germany, the needs might be greater than ours. Also, I agree that a deeper properly installed base is a good thing, but our concrete is typically reinforced with steel. It performs well when properly installed without a deep base under the concrete. We just don't agree about what is necessary in New Jersey.

      Minnesota has the reputation of being pretty cold for the continental United States. Frost depths range from 3 1/2 feet to 4 1/2 depending on where in the state. The climate in Central New Jersey is much milder than ours. We both would need to have more specific information to be able to specify the correct products and installation.

      Thanks,
      Steve
    • 14 years ago
      last modified: 14 years ago
      Concrete is laid in sections. Are you sure you need a whole new driveway? Perhaps you can re-pour only the sections with damage.

      I'm in the Midwest. Major snow and way below zero temps. I have the same dilemma. In my area, the cost for pavers is roughly double that of poured concrete. For 4000 sq ft, the bid for pavers is $32 K v. $16K for poured concrete.
      Here's what I've been told by contractors in the area.
      Pavers: Will have weed growth between the pavers. The permeable pavers I was interested in will actually grow a lawn through them.
      Concrete: A properly prepared 4'" concrete slab should not crack. I was trying to go even thicker, but they are trying to talk me out of it.

      Note: My concrete was damaged by a concrete pumping truck driving on it before I even knew it was in my driveway. I'll never let that happen again. In hindsight I wish I had made them drive on the grass. Reseeding would have been less costly.
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      rrvenezia,
      I think we opened a can of worms on driveway types.

      I don't know how large your driveway is, but $50K sounds like a lot for concrete. I would have to see the plan and shape to better understand why. I understand that you are adding more detail with the paver patterns. I assume that is part of that extra cost.

      It may make sense to consider all pavers. Bordering and detail patterns are much more cost effective when using all pavers. To pour the concrete leaving spaces for pavers and then installing pavers to flush up to the concrete, may be adding to the complexity of the installation and cost. In the end, it might be simpler for the installers to work with one product.

      I like the idea of reusing your pavers. Can you get more of the same type or size? Or, you will have to adjust the detail to utilize what you have. If you have a long drive to your home, you might consider pavers and concrete near the house and asphalt for the basic drive itself.

      Today, we look toward sustainability. There are a number of pavers that are manufacturered with materials and in processes that are more environmentally friendly. Recycle and reuse of your pavers is perfect. Also, hard surface water run off is a growing issue in Minneapolis. It is preferrable when water is absorbed into the ground and not contributing to our sewers or fertizing our lakes. There are lines of "Pervious" pavers or installation methods that support ground absorption.

      Thanks for your comments.
      Steve
    • 14 years ago
      Steve,

      Talk about opening a can of worms!! You should see the total disarray we've created in the neighborhood (LOL!) Anyway, the driveway is about 3800 sf--i'm not sure if posting the survey online with houzz is appropriate-- but the driveway is essentially a long "J" with a circular base that has 4 garages angled off the circular base. We were told that about 1/3 of the cost was for disposal of the original 4-5 inch thick driveway. The rest was for a total concrete solution. The US$50K estimate did not take the combined concrete/paver concept into account. I'm not sure if this description helps. Is there a standard "cost per sf" for concerte solutions that you know of? Again, thanks for your interest and assistance.

      Regina
    • 14 years ago
      Dear CrazyLife,

      I'd jump on an $18K concrete estimate...how large is your driveway? I'd like to make some comparisons if you wouldn't mind. As to your question about weeds and pavers: I'm not an expert BUT we did a terracing project with pavers and found 2 things: weeds can grow through the spaces because some weeds do like sand AND if you have a lot of shade you will grow a lot of moss/lichens between the pavers. You can keep up with the maintenance if you spend time doing so....pavers don't like chemical treatments because it can stain/bleach the pavers. Because my driveway is going to have both sunny and shady stretches i'm really thinking about a combined concrete and paver solution to avoid weeds and moss. When this gets resolved i'll gladly post our final decision.

      Regina
    • 14 years ago
      last modified: 14 years ago
      http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/photos/0,,20221271_20499938,00.html

      Read this recommendation. It might help you decide.

      exterior · More Info
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      Regina,
      That is a significant drive. In Minneapolis, with new class 5 limestone base, expect $5-6 a square foot for smooth concrete. I would expect it on the lower side for you because you should save something for the large quantity of concrete.

      Patterned concrete would be about $10-$12, and pavers would be about the same or a little higher. There are real variables with patterns and larger sizes today.

      I have a paver driveway and walkways. Parts are in heavy shade and other full sunlight. I do get some weeds and sort of a moss in some areas. The moss is controllable with a higher pressure water sprayer. Just driving on the pavers usually eliminates the weeds, but at times I do have to spot spray with a weed killer.

      Thanks,
      Steve
    • PRO
      14 years ago
      CrazyLife,
      If you plan to sell your home, think about what is best for resale. Concrete is good, but maybe pavers can help the curb appeal and sale of the house. It may be worth the extra expense.

      If you can prove it, I would go after the concrete truck company that damaged your driveway. They should be responsible. Why were they on your property at all for another project?

      Steve
    • 14 years ago
      Regina, I changed my previous post, before I saw your new post, so if you have a moment, please re-read the earlier one. I have 4000 of concrete, and this is about 1/4 of the driveway. The rest of the driveway is blacktop, which will also be redone this year. The bid for the black top was under $800 and I wanted to kiss the guy! :) I had been expecting a much higher bid. I love my black top driveway, the black color melts the ice much faster that the cement sections of the driveway. I am currently looking at increasing the area of blacktop and decreasing the amount of cement to be poured. Pavers are out of the question for me unless I get my knee pads out.

      Diane
    • 14 years ago
      Steve,
      At $32K, pavers will simply not make sense financially. It is a very large house for the local real estate market and will already be at the higher end of the spectrum. I'm losing money as it is. The concrete pumper was there to pour a shed that my husband and I built, and it happened 6 years ago. I never even thought about going after them for money.

      Many thanks to everyone for all their input on this thread. I learned a lot from all of you.
    • 14 years ago
      Diane,

      Thanx for re-addressing me to your post...the cost of blacktop is quite attractive and my husband wishes I weren't such a concrete kind of gal (LOL!) Since the driveway will be the last item to be finished in this latest project I believe budget is going to dictate the final material used. Since we will be re-using over 4,000 sf of pavers (from our terracing project) whatever we end up with will be in combination with these pavers. I've truly enjoyed all this feedback from the Houzz community and it's helped put my project into perspective! Thanks again for the rough yardsticks on driveway costs!!

      Best regards,

      Regina
    • 14 years ago
      Regina,
      It's wonderful that you already have the pavers on site. I know the end result will be spectacular.
      Best Wishes to All.
    • 12 years ago
      Totally agree with everyone who suggested pavers. Your home looks classy, and pavers would be the best way to keep the look. Pavers would hold up best with your climate. Pavers work in upstate NY, so why not NJ? Just as long as you get someone who knows how to properly do the job.
    • 12 years ago
      You don't have to deal with weeds anymore, thanks to a relatively recent product which can be used between pavers as they are being laid to keep out grass and weeds. Ask your installer about this. It's like sand, but has an adhesive which is brushed into the cracks and then dampened to form a more impermeable crack. We did it after the fact, since our pavers were done before the product came out, and after several years it's still O.K. in most areas.
    • 11 years ago

      How about BRICK? It's beautiful; the vendors have cobblestone, herringbone pattern installed types, and a great variety. Used in several geographical areas. If you have a very long driveway, I have found concrete is the most durable. If installed properly with joints, I think the price is worth it if you plan to live in your current home for many years.

    • 11 years ago

      I am in process of listing my you for sale next year. I have a black top driveway. Do you think I should coated with black top or to put a new concrete drive way which is around 9k. In my neighborhood only my driveway is black. If I will keep it black it will lower the price.?

      Thank you.

      I would welcome an advice at my email: manuel2paleologus@gmail.com

    • PRO
      11 years ago

      it is hard to say without seeing the house, it's features, the condition of the driveway and type of homes around it. I am not a real estate person, but a buyer can look at it as an opportunity to put in what they want or look at a new one to improve the curb appeal.

      I would only spend the money where I have to. If you can change the driveway and get a greater return on your driveway investment, then it would make sense.

      That said, I think that pavers add to the appeal and richness of a home along with good landscaping.

      Steve Kleineman, AIA

      SKD Architects, Inc.

    • 9 years ago

      Asphalt is a cheaper choice than concrete. But this is not the only thing that is good about asphalt. You can read an article comparing the two on the web. I have found one article at CD Enterprises which you may also find helpful.

    • 8 years ago

      Asphalt is going to be cheaper in most cases. Of course it depends on the size of the job. There is a lot of helpful information on asphalt driveways, parking lots, and even tennis and basketball courts at http://www.totalasphaltpaving.com/.

      Good Luck!

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