Never, never use sand pls, can cause problems going forward. Am guessing the gritty mix would be fine.

I make my own version of gritty mix using just bagged cactus mix and volcanic pumice, half and half. For Mesembs like Fenestraria, I mix in one part loamy soil from my backyard for every 2 parts of pumice. 2 scoops soil, 2 scoops pumice, 1 scoop dirt. The dirt needs to be rich with life though, from somewhere that stays moist. The idea is to include some of the minerals, micro-organisms and organic matter from years of recycled plant growth but not to stifle the drainage of your mix. I use a grassy spot on the side of the house.
I let the dirt dry out first and then make sure all the clods are smashed into powder as I mix it in.
Fenestraria like partial shade when outdoors, becoming compact and unhappy in full sun. If indoors, get it as much light as possible and some airflow when you can.

I don't mean to nitpick, but the mix you described, Hanz, is really not a gritty mix at all. The point of a gritty mix is that it reduces or eliminates fine particles so that large pore spaces are created between particles. Using 50% or more fine particles like peat and/or topsoil will fill those pore spaces.

That said, I've heard that many Mesembs require a finer soil than other succulents. I don't grow them, so I can't comment on that, but I thought it would help to point out the difference between the gritty soils frequently recommended for most succulents, and the finer soils often used with Mesembs.

I do wonder if anyone here has tried growing Mesembs in a gritty mix, and whether they had any success.

I agree with Penfold ..... and I'll add that trying to recreate a garden environment in a container isn't going to offer an advantage. If you keep in mind that STRUCTURE is the key to productive container soils, and nutrition is VERY easy, you're on the right track. It makes no sense to sacrifice the soil's structure in an attempt to shift dependence from fertilizers to organic matter and soil organisms. Essentially, you're introducing a significant limiting factor in order to obtain something (nutrition) you can have in a snap from a bottle.

Succulents are exceptionally easy plants to grow. That they don't like their feet in soggy soils is a KEY consideration. Soils that support perched water are always going to have an impact on root function and metabolism - a fact - so they are always going to be limiting in something of a direct relationship with how much perched water they support. You may not be able to SEE the limitations because in many cases it simply robs the plant of potential; but knowing that for the interval roots are trying to grow under anoxic conditions root function is limited is enough for us to be certain of lost potential.

We often forget entirely about root health, but roots are the heart of the plant, and without a healthy root system, a healthy plant isn't possible.

If someone makes a version of the gritty mix, it would be made entirely of particles large enough to ensure little or no water retention between particles, except where the particles touch. The gritty mix is constructed so the macro-pores between all particles are filled with air, even after the soil has just been fully saturated, and retained water is almost entirely held on colloidal surfaces and within the particle's pores. That was the primary goal because it offers the optimal conditions for root health. Particle size and elimination of fine particulates is a critical consideration to this end.

If you want to increase the water retention of the gritty mix, it can be done by varying the ratio of porous:nonporous particles so more water is held inside the porous particles. When you start adding fine ingredients to the gritty mix, it becomes something entirely different; so different in fact, that often there is little difference between Grower Joe's doctored version of gritty mix and most bagged soils when it comes to drainage, aeration, and the ht of the PWT.

I think that unless you take a little time to become familiar with the concept that is imbued in the gritty mix and similar soils, you'll not be able to fully take advantage of the potential they offer. This is because you can take 3 ingredients and combine them in a way that yields close to an ideal soil; or, you can combine the same 3 ingredients in such a way that the soil is nearly unusable.

I'm not pushing a soil, only the concept. The gritty mix just happens to be the best way I've found so far to put that concept to work. Embrace the concept and things are very likely to get a lot easier and your plants a lot happier.

That's the view from here.

BTW - I have grown Fenestraria (commonly Baby Toes - right?) in shallow containers in the gritty mix (more difficult than deeper containers) and they did very well.

Al

Hi Al!
It's great to have the opportunity to talk to you. After some self examination I realize that I only use about 1/8th - 1/10th loamy soil in my Mesemb mix. I spent quite some time learning about gritty mix and trying to track down components unsuccessfully. The mix I described, basically 50/50 bagged cactus soil and pumice, is very well draining and I use it for all my succulents.

Penfold,

The Mesemb mix with some added loamy soil is based on personal advice from pro Mesemb growers including Steven Brack and Steve Hammer. There are things happening in the earthy loam that aren't happening elsewhere. I don't add enough to change the drainage, sorry for getting my initial proportions wrong. I think of it as adding a flavor of home for potted plants that may yearn for it.
Everything still drains perfectly and it's still just an altered form of your gritty mix. I can tell you that my Mesembs like it just fine. I may have miscommunicated but I hope we understand each other now.

Also, forgot to mention that Mr. Brack actually sent me a bag of his soil and it contains FAR mor New Mexican dirt than I'm sure any of us would be comfortable with. He actually needs water retention to battle the arid climate constantly stealing moisture.

Mesembs have very fine and delicate root systems. Soils with a clay component promote better root growth in mesembs. Depending on where you live, garden soil can be an excellent substrate for mesembs if the clay content is adequate. Just mix some up with a drainage substrate like pumice or perlite, and you have yourself a good, heavy, dense mesemb mix that needs a little extra care to prevent too much water retention.

I would seriously doubt that the microbiology of native soils is of any benefit in a small pot. You cannot compare the biology and chemistry in a small volume of soil to what can be sustained in the ground.

x

I saw pictures of Fenestraria in their native habitat and they were half buried in sand with just their windows sticking out. I thought I would throw that in for discussion. I mean they looked like they were hiding in the sand and relying on their windows to get light in to where chlorophyll is made.

I have mine growing in a 20/ 80 dirt and humus/ grit mix. A wet winter has them cracking but alive with gobs of seeds from blooms... Not perfect. But we actually had watering the sky and they were outside all winter except three nights. I should have pulled them under the south facing porch

If they grow in coastal sand in the natural habitat on a very hot beach, why are people telling me to not use sand and use clay? just a question?

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Hey , Beachplants, where are you when we need you. Have you seen these in Habitat and what are your opinions on this disparity?

Here is a link that might be useful: Habitat pictures Of Fenestraria

I'm gonna stick to my guns here. Rian uses river sand in his mix. I think you can get away with it if you are very careful. I'd rather trust my mix to drain for now until I really have the hang of it. I was told that your soil mix is personal and will never stop changing. Maybe I'll become more brave in the future.
I don't think that matching the soil of a plant's native habitat is always the right thing. If you think you can also match the frequency of moisture and light then have at it, but even in South Africa when it rains more than usual many native plants will die.

Wanton,
Those are some cool and illuminating pics of Fenestraria in habitat. Definitely thought provoking. They're much prettier when exposed though, right? I won't be burying mine anytime soon:)

Me neither. I was just amazed when I saw them. They mentioned that they got mist and not much rain.

I am here, Wanton. I am always an interested reader on these discussions but rarely join because as our faces differ, our countries differ and our personalities. So from the first moment you need to realize that and you will also notice that many growers use various mixes to which they swear by! Copying a mix does not necessarily mean instant success. So I will say right now, you need to experiment and find your own base mix, which you will adjust as needed, if needed!!

Ok so, the clay soil pics you saw on the links in the Northern Cape & surrounds. First thing, it is ROCK HARD - so hard that a garden fork will bounce and rattle your bones if you go with a bit of force. Secondly it does not rain a lot and when it rains the water usually does not penetrate much and quickly runs away to a dry riverbed. If it does rain for any amount of time and you try and drive on any of that stuff you are on an ice rink, slipping and sliding. I lived there and actually experimented with the soil, but it is useless for pots, either clogs up or drowns the roots.
The pic with the sandy soil is similar to where I live and I tell you I water well in the morning and by late morning the soil/sand is dry in the garden, put too much water on one spot and it runs away on top because it is fatty. Which means mist or sprinklers are the only things that help to at least let the water sink in and not just run away.
OK - so much for the natural stuff!

NOW MY STUFF: I live in SA where we do not have the luxury of all types of stuff - I can get perlite, vermiculite, riversand and potting soil/or bonsai soil. The last being fairly new to me. OK, so I start of by using a 50/50 mix of sand/soil and this I adapt as I need to one side or the other. My main concern is that I want fairly consistent size particles. As far as the riversand, we get a fine washed and a 2-3mm washed, bigger sand with bigger plants and so on.
My focus is on fast drainage, because we have lots of humidity around and you DO NOT WANT and mesemb sitting in water or moisture around the root/plant base area - that is the rot area for most of us I would guess.

BUT this is part of the story: My plants get morning sun, some get afternoon sun, we have more wind so good ventilation and I mist regularly and rarely deep water, usually a third of pot depth (mesembs). Other plants on different options. They are such amazing plants with an amazing ability to utilize moisture they get. As for micro-nutrients I do add a bit to the water when I do the by hand watering every now and then, not sure if they really need it.

As for my Fenestraria the big one (6 or 7 years now), I transplanted once and its in the 70sand/30pottingsoil mix, growing happily.{{gwi:499241}}
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I have yearlings as well in the same type mix but here I use finer sand and soil.
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Ok so finally I can just add that no matter what soil one uses, check the root system when transplanting or plant not doing too well. If it is not looking to good, it may be too dry or gritty or too wet and mushy.

Now back to the beginning - there is as many soil combinations as there are growers and I bet you all swear by their formula. You need to also realize that everyone does have different personalities that influence how they look at their plants and how they care for them - some have lots of time, others none, some plants are in greenhouses and other are outside, some get more sun and others more shade. FIND your own formula! I did various mixes which I put in pots (oh some have clay other plastic pots) and watered them, next day I checked them to see which one did what and thereby I found a mix that suited me and I know what will happen when I water.

That is me folks...hope some of it helps or at least you get some ideas. Rian

Thanks for your sage advice, Rian. I just got a plant that was supposed to not need water but a couple of times a month. But when it was all droopy, I figured out that it needed water every 4-5 days. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong...well, nothing. It's hard to figure out what the right thing to do is when you are first starting out in this hobby/obession, but I am learning to see what the plant needs. So we ask other people and try to emulate what they do. But in the end, you are right. We each need to see what works for the plants we have, where in the garden we have them, the climate we are in, and all the other variables. As someone else once said on this forum, we have to read the plant.

Thanks for your post.

Penny

This has all been very helpful. I'm going to start with my standard gritty mix and see how that goes, adjusting as need be. This group is such an amazing resource!

Sorry it took so long for me to reply. I've been traveling for business.

-Canth

Then there is also the issue that some of us grow them outside and not in a controlled environment so the soil needs to take in the issue of matching medium to what falls from the sky , moisture , extreme heat occasional snow (LOL). (I do move things in on occasion). I find sandy gritty mix much better than the clay. But , then I have not tried clay to be truthfull...so "shut my mouth", says the coy dilettante.

A friend of mine lives fairly close to me and uses soil (bushsoil) in her mix. Now she rarely waters and my guess would be she has about 15 - 20000 pots. Her plants grow very nicely, but boy does she worry when it rains a lot. Initially I liked the look of the soil, but once I looked at the roots I realized not for me. My fenestraria was initially in similar clayey soil, and nearly died, before I realized the combination of me, soil and outside did not work. So I would say again, you need to find your own "groove", by reading, experimenting. Soil does change, mine had to, because each time I moved some stuff I used was not available in the next spot and so on. Make sure that copying a soil, it actually does what you have in mind, and what you use is readily available.