Have you tried using Abies species which are lime-tolerant, such as A. alba, A. cephalonica, etc., for rootstocks?

Resin

"Serbian spruce is very tolerant of site conditions. It will grow at the same steady rate whether on a rich neutral soil, a barren and wet acidic one or on a highly alkaline site."

"(P. peuce) It is very reliable, growing well on a wide range of sites from barren upland peat sites to frost pockets or limely sites..."

(P. sylvestris) "It tolerates chalk coniditions for a period but cannot be relied upon to grow to full maturity on these soils."

"Heldreich pine is found on limestone sites in Albania, Greece and Yugoslavia." (P. heldreichii)

Pinus virginiana should be an OK choice for your hard pines, too.

Rushforth, Keith ÂConifers (1987); First published in the United States in 1987 by Facts On File, Inc., 460 Park Avenue South, New York, New York 10016; ISBN: 0-8160-1735-2. Rare & out of print.

Dax

Maybe this will help.link

Man..I just wrote a bunch of stuff, but lost it all by not opening a new window for a search!

Lets go back to the acid injector please. Do your plants also have white deposits from the water? In my opinion this makes the plants less salable. Injecting acid will take care of that problem too. We inject acid into our vineyard driplines (yes, Barbara is talking about grapes in the conifer forum...again) It keeps the emitters from getting clogged. I like gadgets, and the injector is a cool little metering pump used for medical purposes. The product we have liked best is LineBlaster, that contains peracidic acid (nasty stuff so be careful!) The acid also seems to release N from the soil resulting in a miraculous greening-up too. I am fortunate that the yard is irrigated with this acidified water too, and would love to hook up a garden hose some how for the hand watering.

A google search for 'drip line cleaner' will result in some good products.

An expensive alternative would be a large Reverse Osmosis system.

I'd be interested to know what you decide to do!

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: LineBlaster

Hi.I have experience with water that is not ideal for ANY plants.Our mains water comes from a mountain spring and is very rich in calcium bi-carbonate (Ca(HCO3)2).The pH is usually around 7.9 .We use concentrated sulphuric acid(the smoking stuff known as vitriol) at the rate of about half a litre per 4000 liters of water.This lowers the pH to about 6.5. We've also used phosphoric acid,nitric acid and citric acid. Some growers claim that there might be a harmful build-up of sulphates in the growing medium;we have not seen any evidence of this.Sulphuric acid rain has also been blamed for defoliating German conifer-forests.This too appears to have been contested.
The main dwarf-conifer grower in France uses nitric acid,injected directly into his drip-lines.This means that the plants get a constant nitrogen fertiliser feed,and probably calls for some adjustment with the general fertiliser composition.
Organic acids tend to decompose after a while and can cause problems with spray/drip nozzles if the water has been standing for some time.
Barbara,do you mean perACETIC acid? I have difficulty understanding how it marries with a Bio-farm.

I use nitric acid injected into my driplines as well.
It certainly helps level things out, and I agree the nitrogen boost is highly beneficial. When things get to acidic, I use dolomite to even it back out. This has the added benifit of providing depleted calcium to the plants.
Steven

Yeh, peracetic acid. Thanks for the correction T.!
How do you guys get the acid injected into the water? Nitric acid would be a dream come true as organic fertilizers are pricey.

How is it organic...a controversial question. It is allowed in the national organic rules as an equipment cleaner and we were able to use it for about a year. Our organic certifier does not want it's use, so we had to switch to a more expensive, less effective product called Yeoman brand In-FuseO . Ethanoic acid and sarsaponins (a slippery yucca extract used as a spray enhancer too)

Barbara

Purpose-built injection pumps suck acid or concentrated fertiliser solution ( or whatever it is you want to give to your plants)from a drum or barrel.They are mounted directly onto the water-supply and inject the pre-set quantity of substance into the water.You have to adjust them to the amount of acid (or concentrated fertiliser solution,or both)wich is needed.You have to calculate the amount of acid needed to obtain the desired pH.
Barbara,if your plants are lacking in nitrogen,the cheapest and probably safest inorganic fertiliser to use would be sulphate of ammonia.It is fairly slow-acting,long-lasting and has an acid reaction.Use it as a top-dressing in early spring( 1 oz/sq yard) but make sure it gets watered in quickly as it may cause leaf-scorch .Works well on all garden plants and lawns.T.
PS.We don't use injection pumps ourselves,so I relied on my memory and from what I've seen at other nurseries.

What's the point of all these highly expensive systems??

Just grow on alkaline-tolerant rootstocks, and you not only have healthy plants to sell without huge expense, but can also advertise them as suitable for others in your area who share alkaline soils.

There's no point in selling verdant green plants grown in artificial conditions, if you're just going to have them sent back, yellow and half-dead, for replacement under their guarantee.

Resin

not very expensive really. I spent a grand total of $350 for my setup.
To answer the other question, we do this to combat the ph of our well water, not to create an artifical environment for the plants. The other advantage is the fertilizing aspects. This is the easiest way to provide a nitrogen fix for the plants, something they typically would be getting if they were planted in the ground instead of being raised in a pot.
Just so you know, a great many nurseries follow this format.
Steven

Resin...I agree if plants are being grown for personal use. The retail/wholesale market is a more complex issue.

However, our conversation has been off topic about using acid to keep DRIPLINES clean and emitters free from clogging

T. that is exactly how we inject acid into our irrigation system, I was wondering how YOU do it! Sulphate of Ammonia Is a definite no no (you knew that) Lawn, yard, vineyard all get fertilized with the same stinky organic stuff. It has molasses in it to feed soil microbes...put that in for Stiffy boy, though I doubt he reads this thread.

Barbara

PS Our water pH is around 8 to 8.5. Depends on how low the water table is.

I appreciate everyones input on this issue. I am in a region where spruce and especially fir is very borderline with a few exceptions. Our native soil is an acid clay to clay/loam, probably in the 5.5 to 6.5 range. Our summers are hot and humid and I am sure root rots and needle pathogens are quit happy. I may consider experimenting with spruce rootstock, but picea abies is always what has been recommended to me for this area. As far as firs go, no one to my knowledge is producing ornamental firs in our state. Abies firma has been the only fir I have heard about to tolerate our heavy soils, and hot weather. There is curently some research with grafting christmas trees on abies firma in areas where root rot issues are causing problems on seed grown Frasier fir. To start a nursery product line takes a good deal of investment in time and money, and i feel like abies firma is the only rootstock proven for this area. The pH of our native soils will work for abies firma. It is the container production of these crops with well water, where issues arise. My wish to use citric acid is based on the fact that it seems to be a somewhat safer acid(my understanding is it is used for stabilizing food products) Another factor in this decision is that 1/2 half of my production is conifers, and the other half is Japanese Maples. They also prefer an acid media, and I have no options for changing their rootstock. If anyone could provide a good source for Citric acid, I have not located a supplier yet.

Ohhh, we were having so much fun!

Peaceful Valley Supply has some.

Did you do a google search?

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Citric Acid at Peaceful Valley Supply