Great images Dave. No Chief Joseph? It's for sure my favorite pine. For me also add 'Ogon Janome' and 'Burkes' Red Varigated'. I don't remember the species name, I am bad with pines, but they are both lovely 'shining' pines.

Good show !

Question:
Is there a difference between Pinus mugo 'Carsten's Wintergold' and Pinus mugo 'Carsten's' ?? (Thnx)

I wasn't aware there is a Pinus m. 'Carsten's...nothing from google. What's your source that there is one?

I have a Chief...I just did not get it on the thread.

Dave

I think the confusion is that there is both a

Pinus mugo 'Wintergold

and

Pinus mugo 'Carstens' Wintergold'

which some people have been shortening to

Pinus mugo 'Carstens' which doesn't make much sense.

Bob Fincham cleared this one up for me, 'Carstens Wintergold' and 'Wintergold' are for sure different plants.

Will

Yes that's right! Pinus mugo 'Wintergold' and Pinus mugo Carsten's Wintergold' are two different plants.
The correct name for 'Carsten's Wintergold' is now just 'CARSTEN!, the reason being to try and eliminate the confusion between the two plants - we have been here before.

The pride you have in your garden shows. Beautiful! Thanks for the show.

Sorry Bluespruce, The correct name is 'CARSTENS' instead of 'Carsten'.
Carstens is the name of a German nursery who selected this plant from seedlings.

Not so sure coniferjoy - I'm aware of the possibility regarding 'Carsten or Carstens' - Carstens is the name of the nursery, but Erwin Carsten is the name of the originator. 'Carsten is also listed as a verified name in the 'World Checklist of Conifers'. Also I see it listed as 'Carsten'in other prominent collection lists from Holland, including Esveld Nursery.

Beautiful group of pines Dave. I love your 'Angel Falls', and 'Aurea'.

'Tatry' is a very unusual mugo -- looks more like a parviflora.

Does 'Zundert' start coloring-up soon after the first frost? I've got that one coming this spring, can't wait. Yours is just gorgeous!

Kim

Dave, it has taken me a while to appreciate the beauty of pines, but now they have definitely won me over by their variability...though I'm still at the stage where all mugo look pretty much the same.

So thanks for the great pictures and, as always, more please!

Barbara

Hi Dave. Nice pines...definitely my faves.I'm a bit puzzled about you saying that P. thunbergii 'Thunderhead' can easily lose branches under heavy snowloads.Would you say this is typical of all thunbergii,species and cv's? T.

Not a completely authoritative source but a pretty good one, (Erhardt - List of Conifer Names)

'Carsten' = 'Carstens Wintergold'

He's got it being listed as 'Carstens Wintergold' which I too have seen either being sold under as.

At least he says there is no "s". And the authoritative (while still full of errors) 'The World Checklist of Conifers - Humphrey Welch and Gordon Haddow' list it too as, 'Carsten'.

Nice showing Dave,

Dax

Does that mean you guys in the states will fall in line and stop listing it as 'Carsten's Wintergold' which might just go someway in helping to eliminate all the confusion over the two plants in question ?

Barabra,

'Zundert' starts coloring up late Sept and all in by 1st week in Nov.

"all mugo look pretty much the same." To some degree yes...but in the winter that is their time to shine for those that turn gold/yellow.

Here are a few more...

Dave

Pinus mugo 'Sherwood Compact'. Nice green needles with small buds.
{{gwi:634345}}

Pinus nigra 'Hornibrookiana' A mouth full. Will be a broad conical upright. 6" of growth a year. Will be a mover some day.
{{gwi:634346}}

Pinus concorta 'Chief Joseph'. A little leggy but it's building character. Big interior needle drop last October. Seems like all pines in this area did this last Fall.
{{gwi:634348}}

Pinus strobus 'Minuta'. Needles are slightly smaller then the species on low growing bun. Needles are green/blue.
{{gwi:634350}}

Pinus sylvestris 'Hillside Creeper'. I whack on this occasionally to keep it in bounds. Notice the 1 limb that has turned light green/ yellow for the last 2 years. I'll do 2 shots of this one.
{{gwi:634352}}

Same cultivar with exposed light green/yellow limb.
{{gwi:634354}}

Pinus sylvestris 'Pixie'. A dwarf that maintains its miniature habit better then most dwarf forms....about 1 1/2" a year.
{{gwi:634356}}

Pinus banksiani 'Schoodie'. A flat prostrate form of Jack Pine. At 20 years no bigger then 2'x4'.
{{gwi:634358}}

'Sherwood Compact'...tasty!
Actually,I was looking again through your first series of pics,and the P. strobus 'Horsford' one struck me as a very nice example of harmony between plant,rocks and gravel.Replace the gravel with woodchips,and it wouln't be the same.Also,for lovers of small creeping succulents...(perfect companion plants for dwarf conifers imvho) T.

Beautiful garden, well done!

Sorry again Bluespruce but I'm very sure it's CARSTENS instead of Carsten.
I start an investigation and took a look at the website of Carstens baumschule at www.carstens-baumschule.de
This company now is runned by the next generation Andrand Swenja CARSTENS.
The formerly owner was indead Erwin CarstenS who found this yellow Pinus mugo cultivar and give it the name 'Carstens Wintergold' but a lot of people wrote it as 'Carsten's Wintergold'.
Later on it was changed in only 'Carstens' because to avoid the mixing with 'Wintergold'
So The World Checklist and Esveld are using the wrong name and everyone has taken over this which result in a big mess now!
Now I hope everyone who has red this will take over the right name...

No problem coniferjoy, if his name is or was Erwin Carstens and not Erwin Carsten, then that does make a difference.
You better tell Ronald and Wiel to change their lists, if they haven't already. Don't hold your breath on everyone adopting the correct name though.

On my plant labels I am going to label them as 'Carsten(s)' lol just kidding...

I have changed a few lables in the past.

I have just recently started getting into pines, for the most part my collection is heavy in firs, spruce and cedars. Now that I am discovering the joy of pines, I'm filling every inch of space with plants. Some will probably crowd eachother a bit(which I know drives some people crazy) but I rather enjoy the 'meshed' look.

Nice Pines Dave! As long as the whole nomencalture debate has already been raised, I'll raise another. I've always seen it listed as Pinus banksiana 'Schoodic'. Is this not correct?

Thanks, Dan

Will, it looks as if you may have to start roof-gardening. T.

Dan...you are correct... 'Schoodic'. Just another typo error.. I can never seem to get through a post without making one.

Dave

Practice makes perfect... T.

I'm lusting after a Pinus heldreichii 'Green Bun' and a Pinus strobus 'Angel Falls'. Can you recommend a good mail-order source for these?

Thanks!

Hi Dave,
Many thanks for the beautiful pictures you showed us!
Unfortunately I'm very precise when it comes to conifer names.
Picture one you mentioned Pinus strobus 'Angle Falls'.
I had always in mind that the cultivarname was 'Angel Falls'

Picture two shows us a nice dwarf form of Pinus parviflora.
The name you use here is Pinus parviflora 'Pent Azuma'.
This cultivar name is wrong.
Pent is a shortening of pentaphylla and was used in the past as a natural variety name, so it was Pinus parviflora var. pentaphylla.
Botanical specialists now says that this var. pentaphylla is not differend from the species so it may not be used anymore.
On the other hand it is forbidden to use a natural variety name into a cultivar name.
The right name now is Pinus parviflora 'Azuma-goyo'

The 6th picture shows us a nice 'Thunderhead'
I saw several times that in the U.S. the sort name thunbergiana is used.
In Europe and in the World Checklist the sort name thunbergii is used and I think this is the right sort name.

The Pinus on the 9th picture is mentioned in two differend names, Pinus parviflora nana 'Mt. Vernon' and Pinus Parviflora nana Wells 'Mount Vernon'
A conifer name is build up out three differend names:
-1 speciename
-1 sort name
-1 cultivar name
The cultivar name is always the name which the founder gives to this plant.
The correct name should be now Pinus parviflora 'Mount Vernon'

The 12th picture shows us one of the best dwarf forms of all in the Pinus parviflora sortment.
The cultivar name here is wrong spelled and must be changed from 'Hagaromo' into 'Hagoromo'
On the ather hand was the original name of this plant 'Hagoromo Seedling' which could mean that this plant is a seedling of 'Hagoromo' and both these plantnames are according the World Checklist from differend origin and found in differend countries.

Sorry Dave, I put you in some extra work changing some names...

Thanks coniferjoy.. I appreciate your input. I always go with the name tag until someone has documented proof that a name change is in order.

I don't mind changing names but...the wife raises hell on do overs as she is the one in charge of the laser jet printer. She runs all the name tags for me. Maybe I'll take her out to dinner before I tell her some name changes are in order.

Dave

I agree with all the changes. A lot of spelling mistakes and yet Dave I still await the day that you spell "Angel" with the e in the right place! lol I just don't think it's ever going to happen......hahahehehoho!!!!!!!!!

I learned something regarding Pinus parviflora 'Azuma-goyo' as being the final decider. 'The World Checklist' doesn't describe the information at all and they list no 'Pent Azuma' so I'm of the learning that there is no reason to list a 'Pent Azuma', however life would be simpler if any explanation was given regarding 'Pent Azuma'. I learned of course the name from nursery catalogs and it was simply etched in my mind.

I'll get your information worked into the ACS Database, somehow. It's tricky to have some of these records approved but I always find a way. The newest one with Picea alcoquiana 'Howell's Dwarf (Tigertail)' being a species of P. jezoensis is going to be an easy one to write, just as this one will be, and since the power the internet holds, information now being shared rapidly, and someday, it may take a long time we, simply hope the growers through becoming aware, will begin to write better labels. See the e Dave..... Maybe I etched this in your noggin'. hehe.

Thanks Dave, Thanks coniferjoy.

Later

Dax

Hi Dax,

I have some more news for you:
The Picea alcoquiana 'Howell's Dwarf' must not be changed as a cultivar of Picea jezoensis but renamed as a cultivar of Picea bicolor.
Bicolor is the new name of alcoquiana.

K4 - I just ordered Pinus strobus 'Angel Falls' from Klehm's Songsparrow - a bit pricey ($85) for a 1 gal, but if you gotta have it....

I've been very pleased with my past orders from Klehm's. An added bonus is their printed catalog which is chock full of beautiful color pictures to drool all over.

Kim

Pinus parviflora 'Adcocks Dwarf' and Pinus mugo 'Tatry' are my two favorites! Incedible form and foliage. Thanks,

Josh

Hey Dax..."See the e Dave.....". And old dog just keeps doing the same thing. I will make it a special effort to correct this malfunction in my brain. For you and everybody else or will I because you are incorrect. Iseli gave it its name and it happens to be 'Angle Falls'

The "Angel Falls',(Make note...I did get it right or did I came from Iseli in a 30x30x30" wooden box. Was not root bound in the least. Quite a load to plant and very heavy. One of the most expensive conifers in my collection. Retail price $765.00 if my memory serves me right. As a part time employee I paid half that amount. Still a lot. One of the benefits you glean from being a part time employee when I have the time.

To me a worth while investment in a great specimen plant.

I only have one more thing to add. Hit the link.

You experts tell me again how to spell it...Angle Angel

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Pinus s. 'Angle Falls' Iseli spelling

Well I believe you. There's no need to hit the link. I just seem to recall when it was the ACS collector plant of the year that they spelled it as Angel.

I know Iseli was the producer of the plant for the ACS. Here's a link I just found and its an Iseli link with a photo.
They spell it 'Angel Falls' here.

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: photopages/PinusstrobusAngelFalls

WOW,
coniferjoy wrote : "I have some more news for you:
The Picea alcoquiana 'Howell's Dwarf' must not be changed as a cultivar of Picea jezoensis but renamed as a cultivar of Picea bicolor.
Bicolor is the new name of alcoquiana.
What change ? Picea --- "Howell's Dwarf" are a cultivar of Picea jezoensis , no doubts.
Picea alcoquiana are synonym of Picea bicor (=)
If you rename Picea bicolor "Howell's Dwarf" it's not correct !
The correct name are :Picea jezoensis "Howwell's Dwarf".

Clément

I believe 'Angle Falls' is the correct cultivar name and I am not changing the tag.

It is named of the world's tallest waterfall in Venezuela which is spelled Angle Falls.

So much confusion as far as 'Howells' or is it "Howwell's Let's have some real convincing documentation. I have already changed the name on this conifer twice and still the x...perts can't agree.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Angle Falls

The RHS, therefor the Conifer Registration Authority recognizes Picea alcoquiana as the correct name for Picea bicolor, and just for information indicated that the plant shown on the previous thread if indeed 'Howell's Dwarf' pointed to a cultivar of Picea jezoensis.

Clément,

I know we talked about Picea jezoensis and Picea bicolor a while ago.
Then you told me also that 'Howell's Dwarf' was a cultivar of Picea jezoensis.
Just before I sent that message as an answer to Dax I took a look in my garden because I had some doubt.
After this closer look I saw that the needle colour was the same as Picea bicolor 'Prostrata' and not so shiny as the Picea jezoenis.
I think the Vermeulen's Nursery knows to well to wich Picea group this cultivar belongs.
The name that must be used in my opinion is Picea bicolor 'Howell's Dwarf'.

Dave,

Please inform Google or Wikipedia and you will see that the name of the world tallest waterfall is Angel Falls'.
This waterfall was named after the men who discovered it, Mr.James Crawford Angel.
But you can decide for yourself if you want to change the name on this tag...

Some probably never saw the waterfalls Dave was linking to LOL
Marshall

It seems conifer name issues are always a big topic around here. Most of the time we can't agree. I specialize in growing dwarf conifers. I am no expert in preciseness in conifer names and I entirely depend on the informed experts to keep me straight in regard to incorrect labeling of plants.

The one troubling issue that bothers me is how can I be entirely sure of correctness when we all can't seem to agree.

I try to be correct as much as possible and some changes will be made and others pending.

Irregardless...interesting input to a much discussed topic.

Dave

(when you have some cones then we can agree).

This is a simple matter of any number of probabilities that exist from one grower to the next that is calling his plant (whether jezoenesis "GENES" or alcoquiana "GENES")..... and until every plant has been cone i.d.

there is no possibility of knowing who has what.

Moving on.

Dax

Hi Dave,

That yellow-green branch on your 'Hillside Creeper' is normal winter color. It is the rest of the plant that is not behaving like it should. One of the characteristics of that plant is its yellow-green winter color vs. a basic green color during the growing season.

Bob

Dave,

OK, I would probably kill for that 'Angel Falls'!! You're a lucky man!

K4

P.S. Jealous? Me?! You can't be serious...

How different is 'Niagara Falls' from the falls I'm not going to spell because now I'm confused and don't want to offend? I ordered 'Niagara Falls' through the ACS for this year.

Dave, did your 'Hagaromo' drop a lot of needles last fall too? It kind of looked like it from the picture. Mine dropped quite a few.

Elizabeth

"Dave, did your 'Hagaromo' drop a lot of needles last fall too?".

Yes, all pines had a real cleaning out of interior needles. Not only limited to my area but for miles around.

Dave

Definately, P.s. 'Angel Falls' :^)

Be patient, the guy that does the Iseli website has arthritis in his hands - just a typo! It'll get fixed.

Yes rc...I emailed Iseli and they confirmed the correct cultivar name was 'Angel Falls'.

I see they already corrected the cultivar name on their website.

Dave

To continue the information blast regarding 'Howell's Dwarf' and in line with "Bluespruces" simple two sentence reply, we are 'probably' dealing with a possible two clones in the trade:
(1) a Picea alcoquiana (bicolor is and old synonym and should no longer be used to name this species).
(2) I have written a NEW record indicating that 'until the discrepency can be proven that all such plants named can be attibuted to either jezoensis or alcoqiana there will be two records in the ACS Database.

Dont' expect to see the record I wrote immediately as it has to go through the chain of command before it will be released for viewing to the general public. There's a ton of records waiting for approval.

I hope this will 'temporarily' clarify my intentions....

Dax

Hey all...your 'Angel Falls' talk (plus the price Kim paid for one) finally got me to order the ACS Conifer of the Year: Pinus strobus 'Niagara Falls'

It's not too late to order yours too!

Barbara