This is an interesting topic, to which I have my own strong two cents.

There are potentially unlimited(read: millions and millions) of conifer 'cultivars' because of the variations in seedlings, witches brooms throughout the forests, etc.

Some people consider it important that ALL of these should be saved, propogated, grown, photographed and catalogued. Others do not. I am one of those. I enjoy collecting conifers and have a large collection but I don't collect every conifer under the sun and I am turned off by a million similarly looking plants as well. I personally feel that out of those aforementioned millions of plants, several hundred, or perhaps a few thousand are really nice enough to warrant propogation, marketing and growing on a large scale. I don't disapprove of those who have massive collections of brooms from one species(Pinus uncinata for example), and I do have dozens(or a hundred+) of some species myself, but I generally collect plants that are somewhat distinct and unique. I do have some plants that you can barely tell apart from eachother(for me primarily picea abies), but those are sitting in corners of my property, under a tree, largely ignored. Someday they'll be compost for the forest or they'll be noticed, looking nice enough to display somewhere more prominently.

Ultimately I think too many of the same thing is really bad for the hobby and for business. If you go to a store to buy a shampoo and there are 120,000 varieties to choose from, science says you won't choose any of them because you won't be able to pick one you like.

For wholesalers, it doesn't make sense to offer 370 different Picea abies cultivars for the same reason - AND - new hobbiests may be turned off to the idea of collecting these cool and unique looking plants if there are 1,500,000 more of them that look just the same with names like N1440R7, N1441R7, etc.

This is why 'great nurseries' and growers, in my opinion, select plants for *observation* and then pick the most consistently attractive, healthy, robust, unique plants for marketing. I have four Abies procera 'seedlings' from Jason Hupp(possibly crossed with Abies amabilis) and while there has been interest in obtaining wood for these, Jason and I probably won't let that happen until we observe them for a while and see if they are worth propogating. Just because it is genetically unique, doesn't mean it is worth spreading and growing just for that sake alone. (It is ironic though that humans see this as worthwhile for babies. Why do we keep making more when 99.9999% of them won't do anything in their lives but take a dump each day that ends up floating in a river? lol).

My own conclusion: It's more enjoyable to collect and grow UNIQUE & INTERESTING/BEAUTIFUL plants than just plants that are genetically unique. To each his/her own, but this route, to me, makes the most sense from an enjoyment/sanity level.

-Will

i hear ya..

i am a blue freak i the garden ...

but after i bought 4 different picea pungens.. supposedly better than hoopsi.. and they grew on for a few years.. frankly.. not many of us..could tell them apart ...

so i defaulted.. to trying to buy one of each group of plants .. e.g.

picea
=pungens
=glauca
=engelmani .. etc ...

then move on to the pines ...

then the chams..

then too many juniper that suffered.. FOR ME.. with tip blight ...

then .. well.. you get the idea.. lol .. its never ending ...

oh.. and then throw in the truly unique ... like green arrow ... the snakes ... the pancakes ...

then throw in the variegated versions ... OD's .. and away i went ...

i agree.. there are hundreds of look a likes ... and most of them.. havent been around long enough to even see a mature version.. where MAYBE.. variations on the theme.. may occur ... and at that point.. you become simply a NAME COLLECTOR ... having to have.. the newest names.. the ALLEGEDLY most improved ... etc ...

the best i can say.. is TRY to find a mature version.. and buy things.. that you know what they will look like in 3 to 5 to 10 years ... and that way.. you can begin to rule out.. some of the look a likes ...

ken

The idea is to know the best and pick those. Of course witches brooms can be junk upon first sight, while others warrant grafting to see how good they may become. Just because you find a broom certainly doesn't mean it should be propagated. So, for me, it's now a dozen years worth of experience seeing A LOT of W.B.'s. and their offspring and then selection. Sure I bought the Picea glauca 'Pendula', the Picea orientalis Skylands, The 'Chief Joseph' pine, the usuals that all folks are attracted to, but then my collecting went more with discretion. Now, I will admit I graft pieces of wood that I have no idea what they are, however, I trade with people that typically have more than twice the experience I have, and, I ask them for example, 'send me your 10 best Picea omorika dwarfs or miniatures.' So, I'm trusting their judgement. Willie pretty much said the same thing I suppose.

Dax

I see Ken beat me to posting. Same story as mine and Will's.

Dax

Well, it makes sense to me, too.

When I first started "shopping" for some of the plants on my wish list, I found the lack of availability frustrating, particularly because it is very difficult for me to purchase a very baby tree and wait years and years for it to develop character and a presence. But if I could just go down to the local landscape supplier and buy whichever plant struck my fancy and was allowed by budget, it would not be nearly so much fun. Part of the appeal is the anticipation inherent in a wishlist, and unless we are you ( ;o) )we must plan and carry out our purchases strategically.

This is the reason I am grateful to the biggies like Iseli for continuing to produce these many plants and make them available to nationwide retailers. I do think it is vital to keep producing some of these outstanding varieties and cultivars, but not everyone is equipped to do that.

I think it all comes down to that which we personally value: I value character and presence and sustainability, regardless of species or cultivar, others value a specific species; still others value the genetic wonderland of broom propagation.

I think that not flooding the market with a plethora of untried seedlings and broom grafts also maintains that tension of supply-demand for those serious collectors who collect for the sake of it.

While I was posting three more posted! Please understand, Dax, that I do not mean any criticism of the work you do; I just wanted a glimpse into the minds of serious collectors, and to help me understand why I wasn't really "getting it." Now I understand that I am not an imbecile (no, really!) for not getting it, some of it just isn't my cup of tea.

While I was posting three more posted! Please understand, Dax, that I do not mean any criticism of the work you do; I just wanted a glimpse into the minds of serious collectors, and to help me understand why I wasn't really "getting it." Now I understand that I am not an imbecile (no, really!) for not getting it, some of it just isn't my cup of tea.

You're fine.

Dax

Greenhaven, it's also possible that you'll be bitten by the conifer bug at a later time.
When that happens you can answer your own question :0)

Please understand. Creating a conifer garden featuring just the right mix of cultivars takes time...years.

Don't be overwhelmed by all the look a likes. Go for the plants that you know will work in a given area. Build that area with conifers that fit with balance, color and flow.

Plant them as you find them. You may have some sparse areas for a time. You can use cheaper filler plants till you find that special one. Stay away from duplicates unless they are out of sight of each other. Picea glauca has some of the most redundant cultivars of all. Choose the most color full...Rainbow's End' for example. Most others you can put them in a sack pull one out and the others left will look just like it.

Bottom line... patience... and plan on living another 20-30 years to create that special garden.

I have been looking for Cupressus nootkatensis 'Sparkling Arrow' for 3 years now. I think I have locked on to a source for next spring. Speaking about Cupressus n. there are a few redundant cultivars to choose from in this mix. There is Just enough difference in the mix that you can have 2-3 in the garden for a great look that do not come off as look a likes.

If you want fast track buy 3.gal and up. Iseli & Buchholz the way to go. I like some of the smaller growers offerings but the cost is now getting prohibitive for even shipping the 1. gal. stuff.

Greenhaven...for a newbie you are fast learning that this is not easy. Money, finding your wish list plants and a source to order them from are the big players in being successful.

I know you will successful.

Dave

Some plants look VERY similar or indistinguishable at a younger age too. These two plants below look similar at a young age but become quite different with age. A good example for you, as these are both about 8-10 years old now.

Abies veitchii 'Rumburk'

Abies veitchii 'Heddergott'

The differences may be somewhat subtle, but they are there and for collectors(and gardeners), these differences can be more than enough reason to grow both.
-Will

To each their own. I ride the fence and snap up a cultivar or two as they strike me either througb pictures here or at botanical gardens. Think of the mini train folks. A $50 HO locomotive would not be stealing from the college fund but if I get compulsive Pretty soon I am fighting on ebay for a $500 Dutch something or other.

Every hobby has that tipping point between the cool and the obsessive.

A few mini lighthouses around the house - ok. A few hundred.....

A drawer of novelties - way cool. A dungeon complete with chai.s and coffins....

One car that isn't running in my garage and I have a hobby. Three in the grass and even the unincorporated area I live in may care.

I am glad you asked the question because I've often wondered the same thing. With my limited knowledge, it's hard to see how unique each of the small trees and conifers are.

Dave, I ran a search of Cupressus nootkatensis 'Sparkling Arrow' to check it out. Lovely! If it's taken you so long to locate one, I guess my chances are pretty slim? I really like that one and would love to find one for myself. Any ideas?

Robyn

Edwin, in my opinion I have already been bitten, but my passions don't run quite as deep as a lot of yours. I think there is a lot you can accomplish, actually, with a conifer that you can't with perennials, even.

Glad to know you all feel it and know it too.

Dave, I appreciate your words of encouragement; I have never been a particularly patient person, and for years we have moved around a lot...just when I get settled and gardens start to look like something we move again and I leave it all behind. That makes me more anxious to have something to look at NOW for all the hard work I have invested everywhere else.

Lord willing, we have found our "home" and I will actually have those 20-30 years to cultivate my passion for plants and landscaping.

Greenhaven, ofcoarse you're bitten allready just like everybody else here at this forum, but it was done by the small bug.
Some of us were also bitten by the big bug, I guess that I was bitten by the giant bug which died out after it got me :0)

ha ha ha, Edwin, I think you are right on all counts! It's all good, though...the conifer world NEEDS people of the varying degrees of infection. :o)

Many of us are forced to limit our obsession because of space factors. I have only a third acre so I can't follow my inclination to get one of everything. I eliminate most plants from my list if they look like something else I have, and I eliminate hundreds just because of size. I don't want to be this way, but the space mandates it.

One other thing I love about conifers that hasn't been mentioned often is how predictable they are. If I'm careful in choosing the correct location, I can plant my conifer and spend the rest of the time just loving it. I know it isn't going to send out runners, or reseed itself a hundred times, or have dead flowers that have to be removed, or need to be dug up and divided. I love my rhododendrons, but I've spent the last week deadheading them, and I've just finished digging up some little perennial that I thought was cute 5 years ago and has now taken over. Conifers don't do that. If their space is right, they just stay where they are planted, and do their growing/pushing/coning year after year!

I've also been reading in this forum long enough to get over the need to become one of the experts. We need them, but we can't BE them! This forum has walking databases, artists, collectors, lurkers... all types. These are all good and diverse people with varying degrees of knowledge and addiction, but they do welcome us newbies! Thanks, all!

"I've also been reading in this forum long enough to get over the need to become one of the experts. We need them, but we can't BE them! This forum has walking databases, artists, collectors, lurkers... all types. These are all good and diverse people with varying degrees of knowledge and addiction, but they do welcome us newbies! Thanks, all!"

I can give a hearty 'Hear! Hear!' to that! Words of wisdom, and an excellent post. Thanks for your thoughts, Fiddlegal.

"all types." That's a good thing, in people and plants.
Mike

{{gwi:747453}}

Wow. Awesome scene. I always love the pictures of your garden botann.

If anyone thinks collecting hundreds of conifers is hard to understand, try looking at the snowdrop collectors! Yes they are all tiny white flowers just a couple inches high. Hundreds are named based on tiny variations in flowers or the green or sometimes yellow markings. Only experts can tell most of them apart. Last spring one hit a record of over $1,000 dollars on eBay....

Mike! This is your yard? Unbelievable! I thought it was a Thomas Kinkade painting!

Thanks Fiddlegal.
Yes, that's my garden. Part of it anyway. I've lived on 10 acres since 1978, but only garden 5 or 6.
I dug that pond by hand when I was a lot younger. Today I'd use that excavator you had.
Mike

In my modest collection I want a few factors, probably already mentioned...

1) Some classics - it's like meeting famous people.
2) Some oddities - it's nice to have some rare plants
3) Good representation of my favourite species.
4) Good representation of forms and colours.

"In my modest collection I want a few factors, probably already mentioned...
1) Some classics - it's like meeting famous people.
2) Some oddities - it's nice to have some rare plants
3) Good representation of my favourite species.
4) Good representation of forms and colours.'

Love number two, lol!!!

Mike, of course you already know that is awesome...but I will say it again anyway! I hope to have a pond someday, but need to do a little planning and research. Having an 'open system' geothermal furnace gives me the perfect opportunity if I can shape and line it well. If you have any reading or website recommendations on the subject I am all ears.

OK Will, I've got to laugh when you say you're picky on repetition...this coming from the guy that put 1000 conifers in a suburban lot. :-)

To me gardeners are like all other collectors.....we all are talking about the same type gardens but we each want to collect and display different combinations. We've debated on this website for instance whether conifer gardens should have hardly any other plant material mixed in with the conifers or keep it virtually clean so to speak of flowers and other shrubbery.

For me however, because of my extreme climate conditions ( hot primarily ) building a conifer garden was almost more about what could survive our heat and humidity than what I could have or wanted to have. So for me it was trial and error in many cases. I knew I wanted certain looks but had to figure out what varietals would best give me that look and yet still be able to live in Oklahoma. A good example was Picea englemannii 'Bush's Lace' versus Picea pungens 'The Blues'. Both give you that weeping beautiful blue look but 'Bush's Lace' just couldn't take my heat here whereas 'The Blues' is doing very well for me.

So each gardener sees what they believe is a beautiful garden or collection......and like most things.......beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

mark