I forgot to mention I also bought 47 8" potted canadian hemlocks this spring through mail order, and only 8 of those died. Most of them flourished, some ever doubled in size!

Sounds like bad luck to me.

Reputable or not, I've found other sources to be much, much better than others. I've also found that plugs are not only 10 times easier to transplant, but they're usually cheaper.

I'd give them a go next. And for goodness sake, stick your feelers out and see what other nurseries stock looks like. Unfortunately, my best source at the moment doesn't grow anything you've been planting.

Dax

Well, maybe I can help with this. Over many years I have planted approximately 2 or 3 thousand bareroot seedlings of various species, especially Norway spruce, and have had about 3% die. And the ones that died were mostly because of Pales weevil, not any failure of the trees to "take."

Here is what I know. They should be planted early--not so early that the soil is so cold the roots can't start to grow, but here in Z5 I like to get them in by April 15, at least 3 weeks before the species would normally start to break buds.

Next, plant them with the roots as deep as they will reach, and spread the roots out, at least on one "plane" so to speak. If any roots are unusually long, cut them to a reasonable length. Don't plant with any "J" root configuration.

Next, push the soil firmly around the roots, but don't stamp too hard, especially if the soil is wet--this can smother the roots.

At planting time make sure there are not any competing weeds or grasses right next to the trees--I scalp the vegetation around the planting spot with a mattock for about 18 inches. Then when I am finished planting, if there have not been any pines in the area before, I will place a little mulch of some kind around the tree if it is handy on site--some grass, leaves, etc. But be careful about Pales weevil--if you suspect that it could be present, do not use any mulch because it creates a favorable environment for these devils to girdle the stem of these little trees.

I have never, ever watered any of these trees--at the time of year I plant the soil moisture is high. I never watered not on any principle, but only because these trees were always very far from any water source, and there were always so many it was virtually impossible. But if there is a drought, especially in the spring after planting, watering is a good idea, of course.

The only other idea I have is that the "heavy transplants" may not be the best. Often the top growth is bushy, requiring the roots to work harder. I have never used them. I prefer the 3-year seedlings.

--Spruce

i was wondering about the fact that you never let them dry out ...

most conifers do NOT like wet feet.... but don't like drought after transplant ...

its a real catch 22.. and it really makes a difference what your soil is ??/

i have said in a number of post... TIMING is everything... and like spruce.. i do all my bareroot plant in april...

who really knows.. live and learn ...

good luck

ken

All the bareroots were planted in mid April (both years). Some of the fresh-dug norways were planted in mid June but caught up to the earlier ones. All trees are mulched with wood chips. All grass and weeds were stripped and disgarded during planting.

Spruceman - Where do you get your bare roots from? If mail order/internet, what is the transit time? Also, you say to plant the roots as deep as possible, but in the same plane. I am having a hard time visualizing this. I was told to spread the roots out radially about 3-4" below the surface, since that is where spruces have most of their roots.

Ken - by "never letting them dry out" I meant before they were planted. The roots were kept misted, protected from the wind, and in shade - but never soaked in water. Soil is mostly rocky top soil with a little clay, but drains just fine.

Are we allowed to mention nurseries by name here? If so, any specific recomendations?

I got them from two suppliers, Musser Forests and Carino Nursuries, both near Indiana, PA. Quality equal, seed sources different. Shipping time did not seem to be an issue--I can't remember who the carriers were, but they arrived very fresh.

As for spreading out the roots: When I have hundreds of trees to plant, it is not possible to spread the roots out radially and survive the job. Some people plant them with a planting bar, but I find this does not make a big enough hole. So I usually use a drain spade (a long narrow shovel with a rounded blade). When I say I spread the roots out on a plane, what I do is dig up and loosen the soil where I will plant the tree. Then with the drain spade I push the soil apart making a narrow hole, insert the tree, spread the roots right and left, making sure they don't cross each other and go as deep as possible--usually 18 inches or so. Then I pull the shovel out making sure I don't pull the roots out with it, push the hole closed, and press the soil firmly, but not too hard. Using this method I plant maybe 20 per hour, which is very slow and careful compared to most forest tree planters.

Maybe the problem is you are not getting the roots deep enough. You are mistaken about spruce roots being shallow, 3 or 4 inches. Yes, depending on the soil, Norway spruce have a lot of shallow roots and many may run for a while right at the surface. But what you don't see are the deep roots. At SUNY Syracuse where they have had a special interest in Norway spruce, they did a number of studies on different aspects of Norway spruce growth. One was on root development. I talked to the man, Dr. Edward White, Dean of Research, who directed these studies, and he summed it up by emphasizing that Norway Spruce roots fill up all the available rooting zone of whatever soil they are in with extreme efficiency. Trust me, if your soil has a potential rooting zone of 30 inches or more, Norway spruce roots will be all the way to the bottom fast, and everywhere else in the soil that can accomodate roots.

--Spruce

Great information, thanks a bunch!

Do you know if this rooting pattern also applies to Canadian Hemlock? I kept the bareroots at 3-4" below the ground and they mostly died, but the potted ones went as deep as the 6" pot (they were grown in the pot and had no long roots), and most thrived this year.

The heavy transplants and potted Canadian hemlocks were from Musser. They gave me store credit for the dead trees with no questions asked, so they are a great company to deal with in that respect.

No, I don't know much about hemlock rooting, but I would guess that, like most trees, its roots like to be as deep as possible in the rooting zone of the soil when transplanted. Of course, the tree should not be planted deeper than it was where it originally grew. Norway spruce roots are especially agressive in utilizing the soil resource.

--Spruce

Thanks again for the information.

Maybe there is something I can add that can be helpful. I said I never used any "heavy transplants," but one time I did buy ten, I think, and here is the best way to plant them. Obviously you can't use the method I described earlier for the seedlings, because the roots are heavy and are firm and radially arranged. With my seedling method I never remove the soil from the hole, but with transplants you must.

Here is what I would do if you want to do transplants again. Get a couple or three of those 3 or 5 gallon containers that trees come in and have them handy. When you dig the hole, save the soil in these containers, the best topsoil in one or two, and any poorer soil from deep in the hole, if these is any, in a separate one. Break up the clods, remove rocks, etc. This way you don't lose a bit of soil and can work it better.

Now comes the tricky part--arranging the roots in a spread out position but at least some reaching down as far as they will go in the hole. Now you add soil (use the best soil first) from the bottom up and try to press it firmly around the roots and between the roots as you fill up the hole. You have the hold the tree in place with one hand and fill with the other--this can be tedious. I find the handle of a trowel can reach between the roots to help press the soil. As you do this you will have a tendency to push the tree further down in the hole--pressing the soil to get it firm can cause you to push the tree down also. If you don't press the soil too tight to begin with, you can pull the tree up a little from time to time as you are filling the hole and surrounding the roots with soil.

When you are done and feel the soil may be a little too loose, you can press inward and down from the sides of your planting hole. But don't stamp it really hard--just firmly. If the tree is a little lower than you planned, you can just scoop the soil away from the trunk so you don't bury the base of the tree deeper than it was where it was grown. If the tree sits in a little depresion of an inch or two when you are finished, that is OK--it will just make watering easy. If any soil is left over, which should be the poorer soil, use it to make a ring around the tree a foot or so away to hold the water when you water the tree. I said I could plant up to 20 trees an hour using my seedling method. Planting heavy transplants like I describe here will probably take at least 15 to 20 minutes each. But it will be worth it--I doubt you will lose any. And for these transplants, water them at planting time liberally, and afterwards moderately.

--Spruce

I doubt I'll go with any more heavy transplants - too much risk ($$$) to reward IMO. The 4-yr fresh-dug Norways I put in this year caught up in height to the 5-yr bareroot heavy transplants from last year. So I'll think I'll stick with those. Besides, I only have room for about 15 more Norways, so the quantity discounts associated with bareroots don't really matter anymore. However, I will probably buy another 50 3-0 or 4-0 Canadian hemlocks next year for the more shady areas.

My experience with tree seedlings involves planting 65 in 2005 and 165 in 2006. The varieties planted and survival % rate were Canadian Hemlock  95%, White Pine -60%, Red Pine  80%, Concolor Fir  70%, Norway Spruce  60%, Dawn Redwood  0%, Serviceberry  90%, 3 types of Dogwood  80%, Redbud  90%, Douglas Fir  80%, and Blue Spruce  90%.

Based on what IÂve read and my experience, I believe the keys to success are:
Plant when the seedlings are dormant
Plant properly as recommended by the grower
Water, as required, to keep the seedling from drying out

I can trace every dead seedling to either improper planting technique or inadequate watering. Watering can be tricky. In clay-silt soil, the top surface can be moist but the soil 6" down and deeper can be bone dry. The only way to verify adequate moisture getting to the full depth of the roots is by digging a hole near the seedling with a hand trowel and checking the soil.

Mulch is a great help to reduce water loss.

Since planting technique and watering are so critical, IÂve developed an approach to help seedlings survive the first and second critical years. I rototill a large area, near a water supply and prepare the planting area BEFORE the seedlings arrive. This makes it easy to plant the seedlings quickly. Also, the area is near a water source so it is easy to water the seedlings. After two years, the seedlings are 3-4Â high and can be transplanted to their final location. From a tree survival standpoint, itÂs easier to transplant a 3Â healthy tree than a bare root seedling.

I live about 200 miles east of Indiana County, PA in Lebanon, PA. My sources for the seedlings are the local County Conservation Districts.

State Conservation Districts are a great source of seedlings offering a variety of trees delivered at EXACTLY the best planting time for the local area and the prices are DIRT CHEAP. They buy seedlings in volume from the growers at wholesale prices and sell to homeowners at these prices. A 3-2 five-year, heavy root stock transplant sells for $ 1.30 each in bundles of ten. Most conservation districts sell different varieties of seedlings at prices of $ 1-2 each.

HereÂs a web site that lists most State Conservation Districts in the US. Copy and paste this link into your browser http://www.nacdnet.org/resources/cdsonweb.html. Check your state and surrounding states. Urban area County Conservation Districts often sell trees to homeowners. HereÂs a link to the seedling tree price list from Macomb County Conservation District in Michigan http://www.macombcd.com/.

Hope this helps.