No wonder we have so much confusion with conifer names.

This is just one example.

I will give it this name and some day if I like something better we will just change the name because I like it better.

Such non sense. I now also have a feeling where all this name confusion originates.

Dave

Why always these negative comments instead of a nice "thank you for this information"...

I am just pointing out the flaws in the system. Name changing just to enhance your notoriety should not be allowed after the cultivar name has been established.

Abies koreana 'Ice Breaker' is well known in the states and this will certainly add to the confusion in name changes which you and your co harts are so quickly to point out. It appears to be your way or the highway.

So much for technicalities and all the mumble jumble that originates on this forum. Give it a name the first time and stick with it...end of confusion.

Dave

i agree with dave.. though his tone seems to imply that he is shooting the messenger ....

and i appreciate joy telling us about the change ... and i am sure you can understand that D is complaining about the name changer... not the messenger ...

what frustrates me about all the name problems.. is that i can not change all my labels.. because if someone comes to my garden ... and has to have a certain plant.. i have to give him the wrong name ... or else he will never find it in the market... because no one is selling it under the new name ....

e.g. cham nootka pendula .... i mean really.. that name has been changed so many time in the last few years.. that i dont even know what todays name is... but if a friend wants one.. he can go to any nursery and ask for a weeping alaskan pendula ....

anyway ... relax peeps... its that time of year.. when all us gardeners start getting crabby .... the season is nearly over ... IMHO .. thank God ...

ken

Dave,

Let me tell you this, Jörg Kohout sold, exchanged or give away the 'Ice Breaker' only to collectors and told them emphatic NOT to propagate this plant.
One way or the other this cultivar went to the other side of the big pond under the same temporary name.
To tell it in a short way, all these plants in your country are propagated illegal so this plant couldn't never be well known and be established.

Now Jörg Kohout brings it on the market and the name is 'Kohout's Icebreaker'.
This is the only name for the plant now and the name 'Ice Breaker' never excisted.

You attacked me and my friends who are strickt to the names, this is not so smart of you if you ask me.
As Stephen mentioned a little while ago: The people from Europe are the one's that MOST of the time set the record straight!

Thanks, Edwin, I find it fascinating.

It is no wonder that such a beautiful plant is highly desired around the world;
yet it is a shame that it was propagated on the sly, ere it could be properly named.

Josh

Hi Edwin, thank you.

I have written two new records for the ACS Database. While they must be approved by Bill before publically being displayed, they are written and written correctly. A synonym strikethrough record for 'Ice Breaker' and the correct record for 'Kohout's Icebreaker'.

All the best,

Dax

Joy-I see both points of view. It is unfortunate that someone disregarded the request of the original propagator and put it into the trade. It IS a highly desireable plant though, and it is on my list no matter what the name is.

I understand them wanting their name on it to get the recognition they rightly deserve, BUT, the ppl who care about the history of a particular plant will know with OR without their name on it. The ppl who don't care about the history and only want it because it is "PRETTY" could care less about where it came from, let alone what the name is. To them it's simply a "pretty bush".

As I said it is unfortunate that someone disregarded the request of Kohout's and put it into production. I know next to nothing about naming/nomenclature, rules, etc. but to me it goes against the rules of changing the name since it has been published under the name 'Ice Breaker'. I may be wrong though. I see us having two identical plants being sold under the same name.

I do agree with Dave too, he's frustrated like many of the rest of us. Since it HAS BEEN published under one name, keep that name; chalk one up to the bad guys, sit around and call them bad names, DON'T give them samples in the future, I don't care what they do, but DON'T change another name. Try to help alleviate the confusion. There is too much already. I have purchased a couple of trees under one name, only to find out it is the same as another one that I have under a different name!

I'm not attacking the messenger, you do a wonderful job of helping us amateurs out with your seemingly endless knowledge. It IS appreciated, keep up the good work.

Eliot

I am not attacking you or your friends...just the system you subscribe to...changing names to suit your self without regard to the confusion it creates on the other end.

You above all people should know that when a name is given to a particular cultivar it goes every where and containment is not possible.

Decide on a correct name and stick with it. No I am not as smart as you when it comes to conifers but in this case what I said has value and you should recognize that.

"The people from Europe are the one's that MOST of the time set the record straight"!...or may I add most of the time confuse the issues all the more because you can't get it right the first time. Don't pat yourself on the back to many times...you could win more friends by giving state side collectors, growers and cultivators a high five once in a while for their contribution to the trade. Like I said it's only your way or the highway.

Dave

Dave, I didn't change this name and I know now that you are frustrated about it but I'm not the cause, remember that.
The same is for other conifer names which are misspeld here at this forum and I try to lead this in a good way to say which name should be used.

If I see it right everyone here is my friend in some way at this forum, except you don't seem to be one because you are very opionated.
I remember that I helped you out a while ago with your Cedrus deodara 'Glauca Pendula' and how thankfull you were.
I put a lot af time in my books to found out what it was and now I got this ungrateful comment from you.
This is the second time that you have such a comment to me, I never offended you, I always tried to help you.
If you are going on in this way you don't have to expect any help from me in the future, keep that in mind!

Like I said...I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU...just the system of changing names anytime he/she feels like it.

Can you imagine how many collectors in the states have this conifer marked 'Ice Breaker'... it's the only trade name it is known by. Why change it at this stage of the game. It will only create more confusion.

End of story ...end of comments.

Dave

I can understand the frustration the name change might cause to some, and I suppose in a way it's unfortunate ( or fortunate, depending on how you look at it) that such a superb plant has already found it's way into cultivation under it's provisional name. if Jorg Kohout the originator wants to change the name, that's his prerogative, all I can say is at least we all know and can make amendments.

Edwin and Dave I think you should both kiss and make up :0)

Let me tell you this, Jörg Kohout sold, exchanged or give away the 'Ice Breaker' only to collectors and told them emphatic NOT to propagate this plant.
One way or the other this cultivar went to the other side of the big pond under the same temporary name.
To tell it in a short way, all these plants in your country are propagated illegal so this plant couldn't never be well known and be established.

Jorge never put any conditions on scions he shared with some North American collectors. He knew he couldn't make any money from the plant in this country so he didn't care.
Be careful who you acuse of doing something illegal when you don't know all of the facts. Besides, three years ago I saw hundreds of these in some Dutch nurseries/collections.

This is the only name for the plant now and the name 'Ice Breaker' never excisted.

Sorry, but the name was validly published on the internet with a description. However, since the internet is a gray area and I will be publishig the name in my catalog for the first time this year, adding Jorge's surname to it isn't a big problem.

Technically, I suppose I could have Picea abies 'Gold Drift' renamed to 'Fincham's Gold Drift', but I think I'll leave well enough alone.

Dick Bush did the same thing with his introductions but 'Lace' was already published in print. So that name is confused.

As Stephen mentioned a little while ago: The people from Europe are the one's that MOST of the time set the record straight!

I don't keep count on that sort of thing. Does this mean we should start having a contest? Should we also keep track of who puts the most crooked turns into the record as well? I don't think so.

Anytime scion wood is ditributed the plant is going to get out to collectors. I have a plant called 'Buttermilk Falls'. Only one collector in Europe should have it. But it has been distributed in Europe because scion wood was taken without permission by someone else. Now I have lost control of that plant and if it proves to revert and not hold its variegation, I will be accused of releasing it too soon. Even though I have been studying it for ten years now without offering any for sale.

Because some got out, I will probably start offering it without a full evaluation.

Edwin, you share a lot of valuable information on the forum. Just try not to be so touchy about a complaint when someone has changed a name that has been publicised on a plant that is already so well known. And no matter what is said, it is a name change. It was never presented as provisional. I believe Jorge is only responding to his father's wishes and it put him into a difficult position.

Dave can be blunt at times but I know he did not intend anything personal in his comments.

I could see that once it's in the collector's hands it's past the point of the relationship between the nurseryman and the buyer. BigO Problem! Without going into detail the if's and if not's, it's a problem!

The only way I see this to become resolved is to email every nursery in both the US and Europe and hope they remember this information...because...it could be year's down the road until they...receive...the scions and that is asking a lot of anyone!

What are there possibly 6 grafters here out of the entire grafting world discussing these on a regular basis? My god, we go thru information here like it's breakfast waffles.

While Edwin admits it's not his fault, that doesn't change anything.

I've done as much as I can. I think this is a wasted discussion. I've actually done more "network emailing" than anyone I know in the US... Can you believe this??

I'll be damned though if I'm going to email every nursery I can find in the US and every person in the ACS directory along with the hardcore plant collectors that are "gardeners" which I remind you are never to be found..... .....Impossible!

This is a discussion that involves a major mistake.

I'm not throwing squash at anyone. I'm using a little thing I have called common sense.

This if directed at anyone, is directed for myself to read/re-read. I own these words because I wrote them for those of you who still wish to question my way(s) of thinking.

Thank you,

Dax

Edwin no offense, but when I read this I knew immediatley this was bad fng news! 'Ice Breaker' was a very good name.

WOW! This kind of got blown out of proportion didn't it?

OK, here is the deal. If the plant name is published then, by the rules of naming, that is the name. That does not mean that anyone can be stopped from adding or changing the name but the first published name would be the recognized. I'm not sure how you would get around that.

Edwin, this is a great example of how the Conifer Database could be used to reduce these kinds of issues. Under the rules used in the database the temporary name would be noted like this, Abies koreana (Ice Breaker). The ( ) denote a provisional/temporary name. Once a final name is assigned it would be noted as Abies koreana 'Kohout's Icebreaker'. At this point the original name would be noted as follows, Abies koreana Ice Breaker and noted as a synonym.

Kind of cleans everything up.

With no reference to 'Ice Breaker' or 'Kohout's Icebreaker', What about if a plant is incorrectly published, no way can that be an accepted name.

"Dave can be blunt at times but I know he did not intend anything personal in his comments".

Yep I can be, probably shouldn't be. My rage wasn't intended to be directed at coniferjoy just the system for so many incorrect named cultivars out there. I only saw this name change as another attempt to add more confusion to an issue that is out of control.

As Dax says: "'Ice Breaker' was a very good name". I agree... and Bob thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Dave

Steve,

The first thing that would need to be addressed would be to recognize the Conifer Database the same as a published document. This way once the temporary name is posted with a date it would serve as a place holder. The best thing to have at this point would be as much information as possible as to the origin. This way any subsequent publications could be challenged.

Bill

Thanks for all the comments.
I found out that it pretty hard to bring out such a message to this forum, but hey,it's only information.
Maybe it's the first time such info is published and people who are interested in conifer names must be glad that someone is doing this job.
I think it's clear now which name from now one must be used.
It's to bad that Jörg Kohout himself is not a member of this forum, then he could explain all this by himself.

Bob, I know of all these hundreds of plants in some Dutch nurseries, but all is agreed and in cooperation with Jörg.

Dave, I have no hard feelings to you but a kiss is going a bit to far ;0)

Edwin...the kiss...it wasn't my idea it was Stephen. He lives closer maybe a kiss from him is acceptable.

Dave

This is fng' hilarious. EXCUSE ME!!! ;0)

D