Since we had the retaining wall built, two trucks of compost later, roses grow rather well. Own root on antiques seem to be working out quite well for me!

I have two DA roses, Pat Austin and...cant remember the name of the second (second image) Both have done great for a few years

I do not spray, so black spot resistance is rather important. Grandifloras seem to go *naked* in summer

WOW ! Olyagrove you are FANTASTIC ! Love it love it love it ! What is that pretty bug on them.. Yes, Grands do get sparse at the bottom, what I do, is put them at the back of the beds, and put HTs infront, and then Floribundas in front of that,or Bush, and finally the Polyantha's or Micro-mini's in the very front, and they each hide the ills of the others.. I tend to get them too close together and then have a hard time getting in, I wish I had more space so I could leave more room... mine are rather messy I guess. I'm not very neat.... and I don't like to spray but do as a last resort... put some more pics up so I can drool... My newer bed is still a work in progress and I am trying to get some short Micr-mini's or Polyanthas that are grafted on Fort., I have China Dolls along the front of my older bed but they don't graft them anymore, I like CDs they just bloom their heads off...... give us some more pics ...... thanx, happy gardening, sally

lol, no lie. Just got home from work and haven't been inside more than ten minutes when I see the neighbors cat hop the fence and start digging up my mulch for a place to squat. lol.

Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?

Its clear this guy fancies his pet and "outside cat." He won't keep him inside during the day or night. Neutered or not its still a nuisance. I already tried a round critter spray. Next step is for me to have it trapped and taken away. I've spoken to him about it once before and nothing has changed. Gonna take a picture of the cat in the trap and send it to him anonymously. [/twistedhumor]

Thank you Sally!
The bug is a little dragonfly, they were all over the front yard in the summer. I do not spray anything, so I have all kinds of bugs :] My yard is rather chaotic, but I do like the Cottage Garden look...

Right now, lots of new growths on the roses - they sure do like the cold weather

I love China Dolls. I had that I moved carelessly, to a better spot and lost it. My second rose from Chamblees on order is Climbing Pinkie, to put instead of China Doll (they did not have China Dolls) Pretty rose, what a shame to have lost it.

You might be surprised to see this rose...again, cant remember the name and too lazy to out and look. It is a rugosa hybrid! Granted, it is not growing like crazy, but it is managing - and the flowers are so fragrant. I grew up in Russia and the smell of rugosas is very dear to me

If you like purple - and I love purple roses..here is a Burgundy Iceberg. It is, surprisingly, just as vigorous as Iceberg itself. No particular fragrance, but a nice rose to look at ( I planted it next to Pat Austin - you can actually spot a unopened bud...I like the purples and oranges combination)

I am amazed how well Pat Austin grows in Florida. Yellows are often plagued by black spot, but not lovely Pat!

Olyagrove, you have the most beautiful garden, wish I lived closer to see it! How are you orchids doing with the cold?
Thanks for the photos, sure makes the heart want more warmth! I am so tired of this cold weather! My poor old bones hurt.

Yay Olya!You go girl!!! I always lurk here,but don't post very often,but I must applaud Olya for her response here and most of all her work with animals.I have five cats of my own,indoor only,all rescues.I wish we had many more compassionate people like Olya.Keep up the great work Olya,and let's just ignore these hate spewing posts and get back to gardening.Love your photo albums,your garden is so lovely,and I love all the cats!Cindy

olya, your roses and yard are absolutely beautiful. I love the cottage garden.

Posted by ljlloyd (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 18:05
Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?

ljlloyd, here's an article on how to safely trap cats. It looks like exactly the same article that Fish and Wildlife mailed out here.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2067802_trap-feral-cat.html

.

Olya , I LOVE your garden ! Is your Pat Austin own-root, or on Fort. ? I'd have a whole yard full of Austins if they were on Fort. I hate to get a gorgeous rose and plant it and care for it, and have to watch it slowly die because of the nematodes.... and I keep a lot of mulch, and compost etc. on the soil, I have lost a lot of roses to nematodes anyway. also tomatoes, and pole-beans, and peppers... the soil here is very sandy however, and they thrive in sandy dirt... I don't know why none of the nurseries don't carry China Doll, it is one little Polyantha that blooms constantly... Nelson has Weeping China Doll but it is taller and not nearly as beautiful... give us some more pics of your paradise, thanks, sally

SaintPFla your post was very well said. Talk about 'misinformation'. There is certainly a lot of it here. Wow! It took me a while to read all of this. Sad to see so much bitterness here.
Olya, your roses are beautiful!
Skinnyhoops, someone said in a post here to put your feeder above water...that sounds like a plausible idea to me. Good luck

There are many ways to feed the birds without endangering them, from cats..... my hubby fixed me a large platform that did just that.... he took a large piece thick plywood and put a rim around the edge with 1 x 2, then he put a piece of wood in the center and the bird feeder on top of that, he then set it up on a 4 x 4 set into the ground deep enough to hold it... on the outside of the platform bottom he fixed a cutting of chicken wire, this hung down a bit and if a cat jumped to try and reach the platform it would hit the wire and fall... didn't hurt the cat and he soon became discouraged and left. Any seeds the birds knocked out of the feeder landed on the platform and didn't fall to the ground. We soon had dozens of pigeons that came and gobbled all the seeds, so he took another piece of wire mesh and hooked it up over the whole contraption, the birds could get thru' but the pigeons were too large.... he went to Home Depot and picked out all this wire and boards etc. and it came to only abt. $10. not including the feeder, the feeder was maybe another $10.-$20. This set-up lasted abt. 15 years, before the wood rotted and fell apart, we did have to change out the feeder several times because they were made of poorer quality wood... at one time he put a larger piece of plywood over the whole top to shelter it from the rain, and this worked great for years..... he used pressure-treated wood also a fir or weather-resistant wood, it was great and the birds were safe and well-fed. He also put another 4 X 4 in the ground and a platform on that for a water basin, we set a large plant-saucer on it and the birds would come and drink and bathe, and I could reach up and tip out dirty water and fill it again with the hose. There really is no point in setting up a feeder that is a trap for the birds, or a lure for the cats and making bait of the birds. It can be done safely...... if one really wants to.... I think some people just hate cats, I have seen it with my kitties, a neighbor across the alley comes out and yells at them if they wander thru' her yard, she gets all red in the face and looks like she's ready to have a heart-attack... what is the point ? Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. sally

By any chance, you guys aren't neighbors are you?

Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on Sat, Mar 6, 10 at 16:27
Quote: ""I think some people just hate cats, I have seen it with my kitties, a neighbor across the alley comes out and yells at them if they wander thru' her yard, she gets all red in the face and looks like she's ready to have a heart-attack...""

Posted by ljlloyd (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 18:05
Quote: ""lol, no lie. Just got home from work and haven't been inside more than ten minutes when I see the neighbors cat hop the fence and start digging up my mulch for a place to squat. lol.
Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?
Its clear this guy fancies his pet and "outside cat." He won't keep him inside during the day or night. Neutered or not its still a nuisance. I already tried a round critter spray. Next step is for me to have it trapped and taken away. I've spoken to him about it once before and nothing has changed. Gonna take a picture of the cat in the trap and send it to him anonymously""

Someone's not paying attention... I have 5 inside kitties, and 4 more outside I sponsor, they are all neutered and needled... I am not a 'hoarder' I only have inside what I can care for inside and the ones outside came needing help, all forlorn and needy, so this ole' girl helped as best she could.... if one of them goes into the neighbor's mulch, the mulch is prob. better off for it, and it's all covered up, cats are very fastidious.... there are neighbor doggies come and drop their load in my front yard, but it sits there where I might inadvertantly step in it, darn those doggies they should at least be as nice as the kitties and cover up their 'doo'... but I sure don't get my knickers in a knot, it's just not worth it... and I say to you folks who do, 'don't sweat the small stuff', life is not worth it... if you can't find something more important to get all upset abt. you need to get out and take a look at the real world...... sally

I'll bet you a dollar that your neighbor is paying attention. LOL

"I practice compassion for all living things, and, having worked and (continuing to) with both animal rescues and wildlife rehabbers, can bet you I saved more animals, on all sides the equation, that most can here imagine."

Then no doubt you are support "Right to Life". Oddly, people who are the most adament about animal right are the first to the same to human babies. It's a bit of hipocracy, don't you think?

Wow, that's quite a leap in logic Don Licula.

Skinnyhoops, back to the original question
on how to keep the cats out of your yard.
I bought 2 water shooters from the Dollar Store
and they work just great.
I keep them both loaded with water and
they can spray 20 feet away.
Cat's don't like getting wet,
so 1 or 2 times and they don't come back.
I have a greater problem with the squirrels.
They don't like getting wet either.
........Cheryl

Thank you for the nice comments

Then no doubt you are support "Right to Life". Oddly, people who are the most adament about animal right are the first to the same to human babies. It's a bit of hipocracy, don't you think?

Huh?! What am adament about and where would you like to point out hipocracy?!
I can see talking about cats- since that is what the thread is about , and plants - since that what the forum is about...but these leaps to religion and abortion, it is rather puzzling. Almost as if some are constantly searching for an excuse to accuse others of beliefs they perceive wrong.

Honestly, your message is so misspelled and so contorted, I am not exactly sure what you suppose I support and what you believe is right.
-- And, truthfully, it does not matter to me either.

lol, see, we're back to arguing again. Good job rose growers, the cat haters had pretty much settled down. lol

see, we're back to arguing again
Who is arguing?!
Cant blame the rose growers (I do not particular consider myself a rose grower...more like a "flower" grower :):) )...

I think your question/comment is more applicable for
"wanna talk religion and abortion" department. Do you know what their beef with rose growers is? hehe

Yawn. I was insulted four times before I returned a salvo, but you lack capability to see without bias. It is against the law to have cats outside and not on a leash. It is against the law to kill most songbirds. To condone outdoor cats is to condone the mass killing of songbirds. I'm not a cat hater, but you guys are quick to pass judgement and complain when you're the recipient. I dislike irresponsible people who have or condone outdoor cats. I actually appreciate the motivation to think more about this, because since I've never actually hit a cat with a BB, it'll be way more easy to trap it and take it to the county to be euthanized. End of problem, thank you so much. olya, you said 20 posts ago you'd stop posting on this, it'll be nice if you do what you say, and I'll do what I say and euthanize these cats, compliments of you.

Well it all depends on where you live if you are allowed to have cats outdoors. When I lived in the Country everyone had outdoor cats as they were much needed to keep the "other" populations down to a safe amount.
My cats live inside here, but go outside when ever they chose. There are loved and give love. I did have a problem once with my cat trying to kill birds, but they took care this problem by themselves. I enjoyed my cat being taught a lesson, some birds are very clever and some cats learn quickly. As for strays we use to feed them, but some of our neighbors would kill them. The owls here seem to keep the stray population down. Seems we only have a few strays, but the catcher will only come "if" we catch the loose strays, then call them. You know I don't mind long post, you don't have to read them and I always thought that gardeners were loving, kind, and caring people so way not just lay back and enjoy everyone input?
Paul

You know, I thought that too, Wally. Its crazy to see such...well craziness on a gardening board. I go all "Zen" whenever I'm in the garden, spewing forth wisdom and BEING the wind and all that jazz. You would think people who value and cultivate life, whether it be feline, avian, or flora would be a little more kind to their fellow man. ::shrugs::

With that said, Cat Haters 4, (Flower) Growers: 3, Wingnuts: 0

;)

lloyd, here's some of your previous words:
Don't make message board discussions about your principals and character. This is not the forum for that. And you'll only start a flamewar that'll make you seem unreasonable.

Then you keep labelling people cat haters and wingnuts. I guess you want to keep it all going for some odd reason.

Reasons:

#1. I find it personally amusing. Please feel free to amuse yourself as well. Let's enjoy life.

#2. To defuse serious tension with obvious jest.

#3. I'm labeling myself a cat hater as well. If you really did look at my previous words and not just scan for something to throw back at me, you'd see that I'd qualify as much as anyone else on this board.

#4. Anyone who brings religion or politics to this discussion is as much of a wingnut as a person who says they don't like cats is a cat hater.

It's not that serious. Get a grip. Get a clue. Get a life.

In other words, you're a troll.

lol, now I wish the others would hurry up so we could reach the max post limit.

Yes, I'm a troll. Please go back and read all my trollish comments in this thread. Thanks much, fellow cat hater.

I personally have two cats...both outside ( except on nights below freezing when I let them in). Both have been pelted with my trusty red ryder and if they bird hunt, it is not in my yard. Go ahead call animal control, etc....outside cats must be leashed ( it is the law) or they may be trapped and taken to the county for pickup or euthanizing. I will agree that a very high powered and "nice" water gun could work just as well....but it needs to be able to shoot at least 60 feet. BTW, my own cats are as loving to me as any others I have owned; they've forgiven me for correcting them, as our children do when we correct them. Animal cruelty? I think not. I liken it to "good parenting". And please don't start some diatribe abut how I must have "corrected" my own children with a BB gun...thats ludicrous...but neither have I spared them the benefits of a good spanking when they were younger.

I stopped reading at the abortion comment, sure it's not Hitler but I think you can consider this thread Godwinized now.

I thought it was preferable to scare away the cats with my weak BB gun to have them euthanized too, but since I was demonized, and admit the cats in my yard weren't learning to stay away, trapping would probably be more effective. I enjoy almost all animals when properly managed, but not at the expense of native wildlife. Yeah, this is an ugly thread, I felt compelled to correct some misinformation, and admit I participated in it's ugliness, I don't take being labelled negatively as well as I should. Party on!

I'm new to the Florida Gardening Forum, although I've been a long time participant in the Antique Rose Forum. This thread this absolutely appalling! I think I'd rather be friends with the boa constrictor.

I love all animals. I live in the country now and have had some issues with feral hogs tearing up some of my landscape. I don't like them. However, unless one charged at me, I don't think I could bring myself to shoot it. I'm going to invest in some hog fencing....for 10 acres.

Feral cats kill birds for one reason and one reason only. To eat. Human activity would make this feral cat abandon it's food to run for safety. However, well fed domesticated cats, let outdoors, will sometimes kill a bird and not eat it. This is because of instinct and not hunger.

We have some wild bobcats that patrol around our barn at night. I am thankful for that. We have no rats in our barn. I might add that we still have an abundance of birds. Despite the bobcats, and despite the zillions of hawks coming out of the timber woods all day long.

What I have created, and am still in the process of creating, is a bird habitat that includes trees that produce berries, and grasses that produce seeds. Flowers will attract insects for them to feed on. I have a pond that they bathe in. I love birds and other types of wildlife. I no longer set up artificial bird feeders because I found MANY types of animals, particularly squirrels, would have at it and kill the birds. They become an easy target for hawks. It is much better to mimic nature's food supply and provide plants for the birds to forage their food from. The key is to provide a balance of nature.

I have 5 cats that were rescued from a shelter. They have become like family. I keep them indoors, for their safety.

This thread is one of the nastiest I have read in a long time. Shame on you.

Sandy

The point some of us have tried to make is that cats have no natural place in Florida's environment. They are, in fact, a huge detriment to it as a whole.

Cats aren't endangered by any stretch of the imagination but a lot of the songbirds that they kill are. If you believe that the life of one house/feral cat is worth the life of one endangered Scrub Jay then you have to understand what that rationale brings with it.

Songbird populations are rapidly declining all over the country and while cats aren't the sole cause, they certainly make matters much worse. On the other hand, cat populations are skyrocketing across the country as humans put up housing developments in rural areas. Cats aren't in any danger of going extinct or even in becoming scarce any millennium soon.

So is it worth it to kill a few cats to save the genetic diversity of Florida's natural wildlife? I personally think it is. A feral/outdoor cat is a direct result of irresponsible pet owners and in my opinion their cats should be taken away from them.

You speak of a balance of nature. Well house cats aren't a part of any "balance" on this continent.

Well said BigPaulie. And Sandy: I agree this thread has gotten out of bounds, and I respect your decision not to shoot the feral pigs...although we call them WILD HOGS...and, they are delicious if under 100 lbs and even larger if it is a female. You do like pork, don't you? Not that there is anything wrong with vegetarianism.......

Shame on you, Sandy. All the original participants are over this thread. Please save your judgements. Every person is entitled to live and think how they see fit.

I wasn't making any judgements whatsoever, and I certainly wasn't being nasty to anyone. All I was saying was how I have been viewing nature, and made some suggestions on how to attract bird life. Read Birds and Blooms magazine. They'll tell you the same thing. Most birding books worth their salt will tell people to plant habitats rather than set up artificial ones.

Whether you chose to do so or not is up to you. I used to put seed out also. I don't any more and actually have more birds. The squirrels figured out how to get into squirrelproof feeders, and were destroying nests and throwing out the baby birds onto the ground. They had impacted the birds in a far greater way than any cats I had observed. At least cats keep the rat population down. Squirrels just try to destroy your house. They are cute.....from a distance and in their own habitat.

Wilmington delaware, I do like meat, and I do hunt sometimes for food. I might take your suggestion and fill my freezer up.

By the way, all animals exist on this earth for SOME reason, and was never based on whether it fits into someone else's agenda. Doesn't matter if they're endangered or not. They were created for a purpose. WE have messed up the balance. So many pets have been considered "disposable" in this society, and irresponsible people decide they are inconvenient and toss them on the street or dump them in a shelter. The animals do what they need to do to survive. It's the human that caused the issue, not the animal. I've seen so many people with the attitude that they would rather spend $200 on some gadget rather than $60 dollars neutering a pet. They shouldn't have the pet in the first place. So then the pet does what is programmed into them. Just like us.

I'll say it again, the tone of this thread is especially nasty, and this type of nastiness is not worth my ever returning to.

sandy:

"WE have messed up the balance. So many pets have been considered "disposable" in this society, and irresponsible people decide they are inconvenient and toss them on the street or dump them in a shelter. The animals do what they need to do to survive. It's the human that caused the issue, not the animal".

You stop your line of logic where most defenders of outdoor/feral cats usually do.

You are 100% correct in saying people are responsible for the mess of unwanted cats destroying our native wildlife. So if people created the mess then it is up to people to correct it. Strays and ferals should be rounded up and humanely euthanized, instead of simply being released to continue to wreak havoc all across Florida. That is where the Feral Cat Colony people fail to understand the damage of what they do. While they may think they are doing something humane and useful, they are actually doing terrible harm to the environment.

"At least cats keep the rat population down. By the way, all animals exist on this earth for SOME reason, and was never based on whether it fits into someone else's agenda. Doesn't matter if they're endangered or not. They were created for a purpose."

Why do rats and squirrels not deserve the empathy given to cats, when there is no big difference between the two, except cats kill way more wildlife. You pick and choose what life has value, so do we. Just we favor native wildlife, and believe that cats are too destructive to have a place in our wilds.

"I wasn't making any judgements whatsoever."
Perhaps you can define what "shame on you" actually means, because that sounds quite like a judgement.

Sandy, I would challenge anyone to show they've planted more natives on their property than me. I've specifically researched wildlife friendly plants (mostly for birds and pollinators), and have over 20 native tree varieties, not to mention shrubs, grasses, etc. I've read that in today's world a feeder can keep birds from starving if there is a bad year (such as the freezes this year). I understand there is much debate on it.

We're all making different distinctions based on our values and disagree. Some people consider it ugly when they're the recipient of negativity, yet are not as empathetic when they do it to someone else. You only see your side and demonize those who don't.

Surprised to see this thread go on..

I personally think we should call "cease fire" Spring is here, the garden is calling and there is no need for ugliness from either side. Granted, we ALL participated, and I apologize. It is not worth it.

I wont convince someone who believes that cats need to be gone otherwise. And I am sorry I cannot be convinced to instead of fixing a cat to euthanize it. Then why go on at each other?

I do TNR, yes. I keep my own cats inside - I have a few ferals that I feed - all been vaccinated and fixed. My yard is full of huge oaks, has a pond, and lot of wildlife. Possums poo in the pond, birds sings songs all day long, raccoons sometimes go through the compost pile and make a mess, squirrels cause chaos in my bird feeders. My ferals are lazy *sses and wait for wet food. I would give them lots of attitude if they caught a bird, and they generally hang out by the pond watch the fish...
I am sorry, I understand the arguments the other side is presenting me with, but I will not kill these cats in my yard...

I have not added a single cat to the problem we are facing. My main goal of TNR is to reduce feral cat population. I do not want to see hundreds of cats on the street, but I cannot catch and kill either. So I find the alternative some might consider cruel, but it is a slow process of reducing numbers. Most cast we catch are on dumpsters and near people - because like some of you pointed out, WE the people, destroyed the habitats and more cats are now being supported by us. Yes, because of us the numbers went up and unfortunately where where the great populations of people are - the birds are long since gone (apartment complexes, commercial buildings)

My own cats- yes they are indoors. I try to take cats off the streets - most TNR folks do. If the kitten has potential, we socialize. I socialize months at a time, just to prevent that kitten from going back. Life in the house is much better for the cat.

A lot of my cats are disabled...I have a cat who is missing a leg and shoulder, a deaf cat, a cat with all its teeth gone and FIV+, I have a cat with neurological disorder ( cerebellar hypoplasia)...and so on. All came from the streets and found while we did TNR.

This last weekend I caught 8 cats. Three were pregnant. Three litters prevented. I am sorry, I cannot kill the cats, but I can fix them. As far as you are concerned, I did not add to the situation, I did not make the situation worse. These cats were there already, on their way to multiply. At the request of appt management, I got them fixed.

My neighborhood was a mess when I moved in. Two households with lots of outdoor cats. I went and talked and personally did all the work...and most of the paying to get their cats fixed. Now it is nice and quiet, no cats fighting and spraying, no kittens - I must have fixed 15 (8 from just one house!)

All I am saying, I am not releasing new cats in the environment. You can blame me for not killing the cats while they are in my possession or you can blame me for doing anything at all. If someone goes out there and traps them to get them killed after me, there is nothing I can do. I did what I could to simply prevent anymore.

I wish there was a way to make both parties happy. I wish people did not release unneutered animals and left them fend for themselves. I wish people would not abandon animals.

Please, I am not out to argue...I am merely trying to present my side of the story, so no need to pick through my speech and comment on every sentence of it. I am done arguing and I am done picking on any one in particular, and I would appreciate if all sides did the same.

And sadly, you will be amazed at how many people out there could care less if their animal is fixed or not. Most of the time it is *me* convincing that their animal needs to be fixed! There is no way I can trespass and take possession of the cat, there is no way I can tell the caregiver they need to euthanize the cat or get them fixed themselves - but the only way, over and over again, I have been able to convince these people to fix is when I offer to do most of the work...

Just a few months ago I was driving by a house in a Spanish neighborhood and saw a teenage kitten. I stopped and talked to the people - broken English, rather poor area - the lady explained to me that she had no money to fix the cat AND the cat's tail had been injured severely and half of it fell off. The other remaining half was infected.
I asked the woman to surrender the cat to me, and since the little girl was friendly, I fostered her. Humane Society helped with tail amputation and put her up for adoption.

Otherwise, this cat, if she survived, would be breeding in no time.

Once, I was biking to Publix in the evening and saw little fur balls running all over road. I asked the people - and sure enough, mother cat on premises, they could care less. When asked to surrender the kittens, the people asked if they could hold on to them for a little longer till they grow up, so their kids have something to play with. Unspeakable.

I took possession of the kittens, finally (a few days later) and spayed the mother cat.
Full of fleas, skinny tiny thing...
{{gwi:804082}}From Foster Kitties Dec 07

Little Sonia was left at Sonic drive through in atrocious state
{{gwi:804083}}From Little Sonia

I cared for her and she found a home within ONE day when she went for adoption (Sonia in the middle): {{gwi:804084}}From Foster kitties October 2008

These guys ALL came from feral moms. All hissing and spitting. No, I am not a horrible TNR person who thinks all feral cats should live outside. I spent countless hours working with them socializing them...and they all never went back. All fixed and adopted. {{gwi:804085}}From Kittens November 2008

Take a look at my gallery. Hundreds of cats, rescued off the streets. I do not have the heart to kill those I could not take off the streets - well, that is the kind of heart I have.

And unfortunately, there are too many people out there who do not care about birds. Who do not even care about fixing their own animals. They will feed, and that is where their care ends. All I am trying to do is to find a middle ground - I am not claiming my approach to be THE solution. And while we are all as a society looking for a solution, I will continue rescuing kittens off the streets and placing them in homes and I will continue my effort to prevent more from being born.

Please take notice, I did not personally attack any single on of you posters here. You can present your side of the story if the need arises in the same manner as well.

I certainly agree TNR is better than no TNR. I found being called cat hater, stupid, incompassionate and a flame baiter undesirable, and responded, even if it was directed at a different 'cat hater'. Not sure who did it and I'm too lazy to read this junk again. I'd rather do other things, but was totally compelled to defend bird rights. Tweet, tweet. I'm going to go out and hug my tree when the rain stops.

I found being called cat hater, stupid, incompassionate and a flame baiter undesirable, and responded, even if it was directed at a different 'cat hater'.

For all it is worth, I apologize on behalf of all cat supporters about that, regardless of who wrote towards who! Name calling has been thrown in all different directions - regardless of who started it - and it was uncalled for. I am guilty as charged, as most are here on this thread

Olya
p.s. incidentally, I blame the never ending rain for my extreme wordiness. Although I am happy to have this rain, I am rather antsy to out and continue my never-ending yardwork!

Bless you Olya.... after all, we are all going to be judged by 'how we treat the least amongst us'... folks who have no compassion will also be judged whether they like it or not... none of us have the power to decide who should die and who should live, in spite of their posturing otherwise. sally

Thank you

Looking at this photo, just wanted to add a few words about the other two kittens (I have lots of stories to tell, unfortunately) {{gwi:804084}}From

Call it fate, or just an accident - I was in a neighborhood I really do not often come to. Saw orange kittens outside - every time I see kittens, I am on alert :) Kittens can be socialized, and kitten mean unfixed moms near by

I knocked on the door. The people were extremely defensive, they would not give up the kittens and they did not want any help. I left my phone number.

Days later, the people called me. Two years ago they got ONE cat. Never fixed her and let her roam in the yard. The next year, she had a litter of five. All stuck around - 3 girls and two boys. The family was just starting to think they have a problem, when the second generation made kittens. Well fed, big yard - of course they will multiply!

I am not lying to you. I ended fostering a litter and finding a foster for two more. That is THREE litters from one yard. One cat was caught pregnant, and the litter prevented. Each litter on average was 4 kittens, so we fostered and adopted out roughly 12 kittens. Add to that a potential litter of 4 that was never born, these people were looking at a total of 16 kittens in one year, and more coming years later.

And wouldn't it be easier to just get that one mother cat fixed? Thinking of that particular situation makes me shake my head - why are people so irresponsible. They care, they often do, but a lot of them cannot look beyond the potential consequences.

And why killing in their case would not work? Because these people would get bitter about losing their animals, but they would continue feeding and attracting more animals, allowing them to procreate. It is like a bottomless bucket.

Now they have 6 fixed cats, and that is where it is to remain for the time being.

Olya
p.s. Pasco county has a ban on feeding ferals and no support on TNR - incidentally, they have one of the worst feral cat problems. Hillsborough county moved in the direction of TNR support and the numbers of animals euthanized, at the tax payer expensive, have steadily been decreasing. We are making a tiny difference, there are less cats out there.

What gets me, is how a person SELF - APPOINTS as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, and feels justified in doing so... just like in those countries where they kill each other because they are different branches of the same religion, or a woman shows some ankle or her hair slips out of the covering, they stone her to death.......it is all senseless cruelty........and we are no better when we pass judgement on a defenseless animal because we have appointed ourselves Judge, Jury, and Executioner....... go figure......... sally

saldut: I guess you're the self appointed judge saying we're incompassionate, while you support cats that kill millions of our native birds. Would someone be guiltless who had the power to stop the nazis and didn't? Just when cooler heads prevail, you have to jump in with your accusatory tone. Just because you don't favor a poor defenseless bird and do a fluffy cat, doesn't mean we all have to. Do you support killing rats, roaches, spiders? If so, YOU'RE THE EXECUTIONER. I guess nothing in this thread sunk into what constitues your head.

Saldut: your attitude of "Do Nothing" is exactly why we have these travesties happening. It is the decision of people to not fix what they break or even to take responsibility for what they inflict on the rest of the world, that causes native animal populations to plummet around the globe.

You claim it's wrong for people to appoint themselves the judge of who lives and who dies, even when the destructive evidence of doing nothing stares you in the face. Humans impact the world around them. There is no changing that fact.

While I disagree with Olya in the end result and overall effect of TNR, I can certainly understand why she feels the way she does and I do applaud that she has invested a lot of thought and conviction in trying to do the right thing.

This string is amazing. The obvious solution is so simple and cheap, and it doesn't matter your politics, your take on hitler or abortion or feral cats or guns or even your own abilities or disabilities.

Skinnyhoops, just get a supersoaker water gun and keep it by the door.

Even if you miss, the cats will avoid your yard after a couple of near-misses with getting wet.

(from a cat and bird lover who thinks the politics in this have managed to blur a lot of people's vision.)

A "scarecrow" is attached to your garden hose, placed strategically in the ground and motion will set it off. You can adjust the height and direction of the spray. It is quite effective.

Today's New York Times makes it apparent that domestic, stray and feral cats are the single greatest destructive force on our nation's bird populations. See link below. Recommended action is to buy a humane cage, and trap the offending cats. Animal control will take it from there if you call them. If animal control is repeatedly called about a neighbor's cat, they will "encourage" the owner to keep the pet indoors. Pet's are animals that are kept WITH a person, not animals that are allowed to roam. Roaming animals are called "strays." Wild cats are called "feral." Just a definition there. A "pet" who roams becomes a "stray" unless it's owner is standing there watching it roam, at which point, you simply tell the owner to keep the pet off your property, which is fundamental liberty in the USA. Finally, if you live in the country, the very best way to eliminate cats is to hop on Amazon and purchase coyote attractant (used by hunters). You keep applying it diligently at the edge of your property, and you will have coyotes within a few months. They are everywhere in this nation, even in populated, coastal Florida where you'd think only Canadians and tourists show up with the migratory birds. Coyotes love to eat cats. Maybe I feel about coyotes like some of you feel about cats. So you'll understand.

Signed, Dances with Wolves
http://www.amazon.com/Buck-Predator-Bomb-Coyote-Urine/dp/B001IVZ9ME/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359597164&sr=8-2&keywords=coyote+attractant

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Blue-Howlin-Coyote-Attract/dp/B001SH7W0U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359597164&sr=8-1&keywords=coyote+attractant

http://www.amazon.com/Wildlife-Research-526-Calling-8-Fluid/dp/B0050HBVNI/ref=pd_luc_bxgy_01_01_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We have trapped mama and pappa cat so far. Anna's Angel's has paid to get them fixed. We brought them home and let them go. You shouldn't trap them and let them go somewhere else. Cats are very territorial. Too many feral cats here. It feels good to help stop the chain.

Its simple. You buy the cheapest .22 caliber semi auto rifle thats worth a damn, a Savage Model 64. Then you buy a box or two of CCI Stinger hyper-velocity 22 LR rounds. Take them home and practice and set your iron sights to be dead on at 15 yards or less… you wll need to adjust the rear sight all the way down (have the dovetail sititng on the last ”step” of the elevation blade towards you.. this will set your rounds for very close range shots. If your shot pattern is too far left then move the front sight to the right. adjust both until you are placing rounds in a half dollar size circle consistently at 20 yards. Watch for him at night until you identify the path he takes through your property. He will always follow the same pattern… once you found it set up in a line of fire away from anything that your common sense tells you wont hit someone or something if you miss… but you wont. Not at that range and not with the practice youve had. I suggest attaching a small ”tactical light” or securing a small bright flashlight with easy on/off button not a twist on/off type to the lower left hand side of the barrel.. at about your 7 o clock. far enough forward on the barrel as to not block out front sight visibility in the barrell shadow. remain quiet and still until you see him. He will normally keep to the same schedule so if you can figure that out then get to your ambush spot a half hour earlier. When he appears slowly slowly raise rifle and set your shot up. control your breathing. pop your light on, make a small tisk tisk sound and he will freeze and look right into the light and wont move until he can figure out what that blinding light is. He wont see you behind the light. Aim for the neck. if your shot goes a little high its a headshot, a little low… the vitals, lungs, heart. If your dead on and hit him in the neck… same result as either one of the other shots… dead. a hyper velocity round with a hollowpoint lead nose will hit him like a freight train at that range. It will mushroom upon entry and dump its kinetic energy into him. Thats the importance of hollowpoint rounds. a regular 22 LR round will also kill in any of the three hit zones before mentioned… the problem is a 22 round is a penetrator by nature… like a laser it will punch all the way straight through and come out the other side still retaining its shape, mass, and a lot of its energy if you dont hit in the exact right spot ie heart, lungs, neck, brain. anywhere else and hes taking off like you never hit him and unless you hit an artery hes not gonna bleed out from the tiny entry and exit wound. He may die eventually.. maybe… in a bad way. You dont deserve to take the shot if you arent confident you can make the kill quick and clean. If he bolts after you shoot dont freak out… only shot you are gonna get that will drop him instantly is a brain shot. the neck and vitals are guaranteed death within 30 seconds.