How interesting!
I LOVE cheese and always wanted to try making some to! Hopefully a class like yours will come my way.
Sounds fun!
Enjoy,
Jackie

Zabby,

Doesn't say anything on the package about adding mold culture, but dies this look like would work?

jt

I just knew jt (john-showme) would be "in" on this one.

There is something symbiotic about sauerkraut, sour dough bread, cheese and wine making - pretty fascinating - eh??

The only drawback making cheese, is that purchased milk can be a bit expensive. Now if I could only convince the "city fathers" to allow me to have a goat - that might be a plausible solution.

Bejay

I've done chevre without any starter. Back when I had milk goats and an excess of milk.
Just heated the milk, separated curds from whey and pressed.
Mine was a little bland, but very good with some fresh herbs added!
Alas, the goats are gone.......
Deanna

Deanna -

Can goat milk be substituted for cow's milk in most cheese making - or only certain cheeses made from each??

Bejay

Well I can see another experiment coming on. LOL!

I'll bet that sourdough starter 'hooch' would work and for sure the whey from my live kefir grains cultures would. Probably will be mid-summer before I'll have time though.

Interesting thread, Zabby!

Bejay,

You can do the same thing to each and you will get a different-tasting result because of the different milk.

Feta, for example, is generally made in Greece, where it originated, with sheep's milk, and sometimes goat's milk. But you can also get it made from cow's milk (more commonly and less expensively in North America). Most N.A. cheeses are, by default, made from cow's milk because it is so much cheaper. This is because a cow makes about 10 times more milk than a goat (and about 20 times more than a sheep).

The kind of creamy, spreadable white cheese you see sold in plastic-packaged logs in the store as "chevre" is made exactly the same way as cream cheese, but with goat milk; if you treat cow's milk the same way you get something akin to Philadelphia's product (but, according to Petra, way, WAY better if you make it fresh yourself).

This is what would result by following the instructions on John's package, btw, I believe. It's a bacterial starter culture, and apparently there are really only two main kinds (one that is more heat-activated than the other), with the one used for cream cheese/chevre being the most common. There is no mention of mold, John, because you only need it for some kinds of cheeses; bleu, for example, has mold streaked through them, while camembert or brie or St. Paulin has mold all around the outside to make the rind. (This is why we had to use non-chlorinated water to rinse our cheeses, btw, because chlorine would kill the mold!)

Draining the curd in a cotton bag like it says on the package will make a smooth, spreadable texture (as opposed to cutting them up, which makes the harder textures).

My understanding was that curdling without added bacteria, like Deanna describes, makes something like cottage cheese, which you can press into a nice cheese as well. The bacteria helps encourage harder curds that form more evenly and faster.

It's all very interesting and I'm tempted to get a book on it; Petra recommended a couple.

Will report on the further adventures....

Zabby

P.S. Yes, there is definitely a commonality with the beer, sourdough, saurkraut, etc. --- a "fun with bacteria" thing going down here, clearly! ;-)

Zabby, it's been years since I made cheese, and I keep threatening to find some raw milk and do it again. What fun!

I'm looking forward to hearing about all your "Adventures in Cheese-iness".

Annie

Annie, does cheese made with raw milk really taste better? I don't think I've ever had it. It's a bit controversial (ooh, the politics of cheese!).

I did learn some of the chemistry involved. Apparently if you do use raw milk (which you can't legally buy where I live, though someone could give it to you), you don't have to add calcium chloride (some calcium gets destroyed in the pasteurization process, and calcium is apparently helpful for curdling, so we add it back in using the CaCl).

Petra's opinion is that the most important criterion for cheese quality is that the milk be FRESH. (She says that cheese from store-bought goat's milk is often better than cheese from homemade cow's milk simply because the goat farmers' association that pools & distributes it, at least around here, has a good process and it tends to be only a very few days old by the time you buy it.)

I am a particular fan of sheep's milk cheese, and am wondering if I can make friends with a local sheep farmer to get my hands on some milk....

Zabby

I have had cheese with raw milk, both goat and cow, and it was excellent. I've also had cheese with raw milk, both goat and cow, and it was awful. It seems to me a lot has to do with the skill of the processor, especially in the handling of the milk.

Generally I find goat products too strong for my taste, but my DH's cousin ran a goat dairy and her cheese was excellent, in part due to the feed upon which the goats were raised and in part due to the sanitation and speed with which the milk was chilled.

Here raw milk can be purchased from stores like Wild Oats, but it's labelled for pet consumption only. Of course what you do with it when you get home is entirely up to you.

Carol

Carol, what a clever law that you can buy raw milk for pets! I visited Seattle in April and ate a lot of raw cheese. It was great, but at one point we had to keep a piece unrefrigerated for 2 days and decided to throw it out to be safe. With regular cheese I would probably have eaten it anyway.

In Virginia raw milk and cheese are illegal, and I believe only recently so. At the farmers' market in Charlottesville there's a man who says he refuses to throw away the milk from his goats, so he gives away his cheese for free...and keeps his legal defense fund donation bucket available for interested givers. I'm proud to "donate" in exchange for his cheese to fight the power in VA. Our state is also planning an animal tagging law that would have exemptions for factory farms--exactly the people who are making us sick with food-borne illnesses!

Zabby, would you mind telling us what books Petra recommended? I'd love to make cheese. I saw a site on making feta and may do that. Someday I hope to have a goat for milk & cheese, or a cow if I can make it feasible.

Melissa

Here, we still have a small dairy supplier (Puleos) that has 'cream line' milk in glass bottles. Its quite noticable to see the darker cream layer at the top of the bottles. These are still capped with small cardboard disk covers. Raw milk, years ago, gave my dad a bad case of hives. It comes from tuberculin tested cows however and is not pasturized. Hard to find, unless you know someone who has a dairy farm nearby, and is willing to take a chance. We do have a Wild Oats store nearby, will have to check it for milks.

Melissa,

One of the books was _Making Cheese at Home_ by Barbara Ciletti. There was a second one, that was thicker and more general and directed not just at home but at market cheese makers --- I'm trying to scare up the info myself. (There were one or two copies of the resource list short at the seminar.)

I've attached a link to part of Petra's company's website that has a basic recipe from the Ciletti book, which looks much like the instructions on JT's bacteria package. It also includes a link to a supplier of cheesemaking products like rennet and bacterial culture and calcium chloride.

Regarding the raw milk, in Ontario a few farmers have gotten around the law by allowing customers to purchase a share in a cow. Then they simply pick up regularly milk that is already "theirs." The issue is still getting sorted out, however --- the police did raid one such farmer recently, and it'll either turn into a long court battle or a negotiation that clarifies where to draw the lines.

Zabby

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Cheese Recipe from Fifth Town

My mom used to make a lot of yogurt cheese by just straining out the water and whey.

Ken, my mom makes a great low-fat cheesecake with that yogurt cheese.

Zabby

Thanks Zabby. Looks like it's a good deal at amazon.com. If you add it to your wish list, maybe one of the other books suggested will be the one you're looking for. It offered me several. I'll make this a project sometime.

Melissa

Melissa, very sneaky idea! Thanks, I'll try it. I think the other book was Canadian, so I'll try Amazon.ca, too.

Zabby

Ah! Petra e-mailed me back with the resource list.

The other book was this Canadian one:

1. The Cheesemakers Manual by Margaret P. Morris; Glengarry Cheesemaking and Dairy Supply (ISBN 0-9732366-0-4). To order call 613-525-3133

The author is a cheesemaker in Ontario and has a website where you can order supplies like cultures, rennet, and molds.

Zabby

I make a cheese cake here too, and use the non cooking type Clear jel as a thickener. I usually use the fat free or light creamed cheese, as I am not really a fan of yogurt. Its added along with some Splenda and vanilla to the filling. Its not baked and comes out fairly good. I do need to use some graham cracker crumbs as a coating/crust in the pan however.

Ken, I'm still waiting on that olive-oil-based low-fat pie crust recipe. THEN my boyfriend will eat some of my beautiful pies!

Melissa

Me, I have a low fat olive oil recipe for pie crust?? I don't recall that?? But there is a bakery in Salem NH that makes many pasteries with oilve oil, and even sugarless goodies. They have apple and blueberry pies that use olive oil in the crust, as well as cheesecakes with no fat or sugar. They even have gluten free, fat free doughnuts. Baked, and a bit odd tasting, but thats what you get when making things with soy flour. Sugest you experiment with olive oil and mix with some flour to get the same pea sized bits, then add some water to form a dough. Use an inexpensive oilive oil, not the extra virgin type. The bakery in Salem also has sites elsewhere in the US. They ues LOTS of Splenda as the sweetener and its a diabetics 'heaven' there..

Yes, that's the recipe I was talking about, I thought you had a copy. I'll try it sometime anyway!

Melissa

How fun! I have Nigerian Dwarf goats. They provide a very Rich milk - more so than other milk goats. Last year after I sold the babies I kept milking them and tried making cheese for the first time. I didnt listen to the "experts" that said, make a simple cheese first! I wanted motzerella! Well, my first batch was a flop, but it was still edible. It was sorta the consistancy of ricotta, so I used it for calzones. :) YUM. I did make ricotta with the leftover whey too. That was the easiest part. :) It was so disappointing though, every single step through the process was Picture Perfect! Until the last step, spinning. It wouldnt spin! :( I think I got it too hot. My second batch was perfect! Oh boy was it good.!! It was maybe a little tough, more like string cheese, but it was good stuff!

Well, I have baby goats right now, 4-5 weeks old. When they are weaned in another couple weeks, I will have more milk to try again this year! :) Wish me luck. :)

An awesome website that I used:
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/CHEESE.HTML

Wow, thanks, porkster --- great website.

Those goats sound awesome.

Interesting how even the failures tend to be good to eat, eh? I guess if you have good milk, it is almost certain to be tasty!

Zabby

Yeah, I was bummed it didnt spin... but when I tasted it, it was, hmm, not bad. :)

I was gonna add... bejay: I see you are in zone 9-10, if you are nearby, I can get you some milk - "for animal consumption only" :) I am in Malabar, just south of Melbourne. Just a thought in case you want to try.

porkster -

Appreciate the offer. Actually, my zone 9-10 is in California - but still thank you.

I've seen someone advertise pigmy goats for sale - in a rural area when I pass through their town. Have often wondered what milk yield they get from them.

There is a dairy fairly close to me - about 10 miles or so, where I've loaded my truck for their free aged manure quite often, but I've never thought to ask if they had milk for sale. Might be worth a try.

I like the idea of making soft cheese from yogurt. My family is not too fond of yogurt, but I like it, and perhaps making cheese from what's left - may be a good idea.

It's such a treat to have good tasting food to eat, really a challenge too.

Bejay

Just found this link for some interesting items from VT. Needed to find a source for neen oil, and came upon the site that also offers cheese making ingredients. Anyone for fresh mozzarella?

Hi zabby17 and all.

I've made about 8 different cheeses and posted records, pictures and recommendations in the forum section of the link below. There are also lots of cheese making recipes there. I haven't tried a goat's milk cheese yet but did notice yesterday that I could buy it in my local grocery store!

Hey, if you're interested in making goat cheese you should check out this new movie, called Artois the Goat! It's about a guy who has to find a way to follow his passion to make goat cheese! by Texas film makers Kyle and Cliff Bogart. Artois the Goat!!!