Call Pomona's and they would most likely send you more. They are really good to work with. I don't know of a substitute for their calcim.
If you put a lid on it won't cook down fast enough. You want to evaporate the water, not hold it in.
You just keep cooking until you get the temp. on the thermometer or use the sheet test, or the other ways of testing.
It takes a lot of sugar to get a gel in regular jams especially with no added pectin. If you use a more shallow, wider pan it will help. There are special jam pots you can buy to cook it in.
Here is some info on sugar and jam :
Sugar

Sugar is an important ingredient in jellied fruit products. It must be present in the proper proportion with pectin and acid to make a good gel. Sugar is the preservative for the product, preventing the growth of microorganisms. It also contributes to the taste of the product. Never cut down on the amount of sugar a recipe calls for unless syrup is the desired end result.

Granulated white sugar is usually used in homemade jellied fruit products. Sweeteners such as brown sugar, sorghum and molasses are not recommended since their flavor overpowers the fruit flavor and their sweetness varies.

Light corn syrup or light, mild honey can be used to replace part, but not all, of the sugar. or best results, use tested recipes that specify honey or syrup.

Artificial sweeteners cannot be substituted for sugar in regular recipes because the sugar is Sugar

Sugar is an important ingredient in jellied fruit products. It must be present in the proper proportion with pectin and acid to make a good gel. Sugar is the preservative for the product, preventing the growth of microorganisms. It also contributes to the taste of the product. Never cut down on the amount of sugar a recipe calls for unless syrup is the desired end result.

Granulated white sugar is usually used in homemade jellied fruit products. Sweeteners such as brown sugar, sorghum and molasses are not recommended since their flavor overpowers the fruit flavor and their sweetness varies.

Light corn syrup or light, mild honey can be used to replace part, but not all, of the sugar. or best results, use tested recipes that specify honey or syrup.

Artificial sweeteners cannot be substituted for sugar in regular recipes because the sugar is needed for gel formation.

There really is no formula, each fruit is different, the different ripeness, etc. does affect it. It is best to use some unripe or less ripe fruit to get a gel in the jam.

I like Pomona's pectin since you can cut down on the sugar. I use Splenda since I am diabetic in mine.
The Pomona's pectin is more natural. It doesn't have all the added dextrose like the other brands. I don't make jam without pectin due to the sugar needed.
You can also use Clear Jel instead of pectin. I have not done it, but you can use it. Use 7 T. per pack of pectin called for in regular cooked jams, approx. 3 T. for freezer jams. This is regular Clear Jel, not the instant.
Clear Jel is a modified food starch, actually a cornstarch product, in case you are not familiar with it. You usually order it online, not many stores have it. It is meant for canning pie fillings, but can be used for jams. The texture will be different than with pectin or the cooked jams without pectin.

Your question got me to wondering so I asked my BIL the chemist. After I explained the jam making process he had the following thoughts. As a disclaimer, he was rattling on in "scientese" so I may have interpreted some things incorrectly but here goes:

Sugar dissolves in water very easily. By heating the fruit you increase the amount of sugar that can be dissolved in the liquid (juice from the fruit). Kind of like stirring a spoonful of sugar in hot tea vs. a spoonful of sugar in iced tea. This creates a "super saturated" solution of sugar and fruit juice. Basically, a greater amount of sugar to liquid than would naturally occur at room temp.

Through evaporation of more liquid from the super saturate you increase the viscosity of the solution. In human language, cooking down the jam gets rid of some of the moisture and the liquid thickens up as the percentage of sugar to liquid increases.

Here's where I really paraphrase because he started getting into molar ratios, colloidal suspensions and other things way too scientific for me.)

His thought is that the pectin works with the sugar and water, perhaps by changing the gelling/crystalization point of the sugar solution, to increase the tolerances of the solution to heat and moisture content variables.

As far as the preservative qualities of sugar, because of its solubility, sugar "steals" the available water from the environment (jar of jam) making the environment unsuitable for the growth of some bacterium.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's what he said. Hope that helps. =)

I find I use more sugar in recipes with added pectin than without. I pretty much only make jam without added pectin these days. For fruits that need pectin to set (ie cherries) I either use green apple jelly or a heaping tablespoon of liquid pectin. Either will work.

Science and Technology of Making Preserves

On the Jelling of Jelly

Carol

Yes, call Pomona for more. Its based in Massachusetts where really good stuff comes from. They also sell it in bulk. As mentioned on the packages, Pomona is a lot more effective in a jelly set compared to most ordinary pectins, so less goes a longer way, and you can make any batch size up to about 20+ jars. It was actually calcium carbonate way back when it first came out years ago, but has now been changed for two reasons. First for longer shelf life, as well as mixes a bit beter in water, as well as a slightly slower set up once added to the boiling pectin. You just don't want a sudden glob of thick goo.. The Pomona instructions also mention that the supplied calcium is more than enough for a single box of the pectin. Futhermore, if its not ALL mixed with water, its life is nearly endless. Simply use the amount you need and store the rest of the packet in the fridge for later use anytime. When I do the Pomona, I hate making tiny batches of stuff, so my jams and jellies are always big batches and are never usually succesful with regular pectins. And yes, it does, in fact, gel water too! Been there done that. Love it!

Hello All,

I am glad to find this forum and am particularly impressed with all the knowledge here. That said, like othe orginator of this topic, I too have been having a difficult time finding the gelling point of jamat least with the fancy (and expensive) candy thermometer I specifically bought for that purpose.

In spite of that, we have had some successes with not having to add packaged pectin, but for the life of me, canÂt figure out why I canÂt seem to make the thermometer work. The jam is most certainly gelling in the 8 quart Farberware pot, but according to the thermometer it shouldnÂt be.

For what it worth, a major reason that we wanted to make pectinless jam was to be able to use less sugar, in comparison with the guidelines on the pectin package. Additionally, the packaged pectin in our tiny little town is itself close to the cost of half a flat of jars, bands, and lids. But we also appreciate the old-fashioned techniques.

Anyway, we are having fun and this forum is certainly part of that!

Thanks! Cheers. Roof

Thanks everyone for your quick responses. I too love Pomona pectin for most everything.
I just wanted to be able to make jam without it. I think I definitely am trying to cut out too much sugar in these pectinless recipes and therefore am not getting the jam to set.
I need a better thermometer, I guess, since I am using the classic glass tube one. It is hard to read and I am always afraid I will break it and ruin my jam.

Plus, reading some of the links Carol supplied, I realize the some of my problems stems from the type of fruit I am using and whether or not there is enough natural pectin regardless of sugar to make the jam set. I don't think I am taking the natural pectin, acid level, and necessary sugar level into consideration all the time.

Boy, I have some learning to do here!!

I did write to Pomona about the calcium water. They don't sell it by itself, so I will have to buy another bag of pectin. She said I should not be running out at all, and I must be doing something wrong. I also asked her if pickle crisp or any other calcium product would work. She said she wasn't sure, but she thought you should be able to substitute some other calcium product since it is the calcium itself that does the trick. I might try a batch using pickle crisp or something just to see what happens!

Here is an exact quote from her email:
"The calcium water lasts for a number of months and should not be thrown away UNLESS you find a color in the jar that is not white powder or clear water. If you see another color in the jar like red, pink, gray, green etc. then something is growing in there and it should be thrown out."

I was under the impression that the calcium water lost its potency and that is why they said only good for a few months. I think she is saying though, that it is good unless something starts to grow or contaminate it in some way. Nowhere on the website or any other site about Pomona, does it give specifics about the calcium water turning colors.

thanks
kendra

My first thought is you may need to calibrate your thermometer.

I don't know your elevation but whatever the boiling point is where you are should be the temperature showing on the thermometer. If water boils at 212 and your thermometer shows 215, that tells you it's 3 degrees high. Then you can adjust accordingly when you make jam.

Also, here are some tips for using a thermometer:

"To get an accurate reading, place the thermometer in a vertical position with the bulb completely covered by the jelly mixture but not touching the bottom of the kettle. Stir jam, preserve, conserve, and marmalade mixtures before taking the temperature. Read the thermometer at eye level."

Also remember the jell point is 8 degrees above boiling. Generally that's 220, but again depending upon elevation, it may be somewhat different. 1 degree below is a softer set. 2 degrees below is syrup. 1 degree above is a firmer set.

Old-timers used all kinds of methods to compensate for low-pectin fruits. They made their own pectin from apples or citrus, they blended high-pectin fruits with low-pectin fruits, they added lemon juice (and put the seeds and pulp in a bag for additional pectin).

They also used a simple alcohol test to determine whether the pectin level of the fruit they were using was sufficient.

Carol

Carol,

Thank you very much. And thanks too for the link about problems with jellied products. Im collecting a vast resource of information and this contributes toward it. Among the most helpful is the wisdom gleaned here, and most certainly your experience in particular. Thanks much for that, and for often giving helpful links too.

-------------

OK, I did calibrate the thermometer; we are about 150 feet above the Pacific surf and the thermo read 207 F in a wildly boiling kettle of water.so I reckoned to be shooting for 215 and the gelling point. But the device wont get above 210 in the jam.

This particular thermometer is a Taylor candy/deep fry dial gauge with a metal probe, and I noted that the probe has to be about 2 inches into the jam (but not touching the pots bottom). Of itself, this a limiting factor when doing small batches in a big pot

But still, even when tipping the pot, the temp wasnt reached. Not wanting to scorch or caramelize the effort, I resorted to the spoon/sheet test and the plate test, both of which with not a lot of experience were (to me) not very conclusive. The reason I got the thermo in the first place.

My brother in law had the same problem with his thermometer purchased at the same time, so just guessing, maybe the "probe" type candy thermometers are not the best for this application??? If generally so, maybe this is useful information for others.

My thermometer is going on a one way trip back from whence it came :-) Though it is tempting to throw it into the surf.

Thanks again, Roof

With Pomona, you see the setting results in seconds once the SMALL AMOUUNT of calciuum water is added! I first see it as soft globs hanging off the spoon when I lift it out. Candy thermometers are really hard to use in making jellies. My most positive way to know a set is to use a small saucer and place a small sample spoonful of the simmering mixture on the dish, then into the freezer, for about a minute. If it comes out and you run your finger across it, it should be set up already. Boiling heavily or taking this setting up test with regular pectins can sometimes 'break' them, and your back to ground zero again (a frustrating liquid!). That seems to be the way most commercial pectins (regular, low/no) seem to work when used at home. Besides that, if these other commercail pectins pectins are not used before expiration dates, they tend to poop out. I had a great deal on about 10 boxes of liquid Certo, and finally got to use it almost 3 years later. Ended up using almost 4 packages for a singe small batch of jam, and nearly scorched it during the hard boiling.
One 'fun' way to see a gel set is to buy a bag of cranberries and follow the recipe on the bag, with the proper amount of sugar. They are brought to a boil with the added sugar and will set up all by itself! This kind of gel is a natural one of course, and is due to very high natural pectin in cranberries. To get a smooth cranbery sauce, its simply run through a fine sieved food mill first prior to being coooked, so that no solids (skins and seeds) are in the juices, or pureed and then strained of seeds..

Jam/Jelly making isnt hard to do, and is even much more reliable when using a tried and true product like the Pomona. Geez, I sound like a commercal, or is it infomercal..

Again, the calcium is MORE THAN ENOUGH for a WHOLE BOX of Pomona. Even for that, I bet one calcium packet may even be enough for two boxes! It may be that your measuring devices are not accurate. A table type cup (coffee) or tea/table teaspoon is not the same as an actual measuring cup/spoon. Thermometers used for making jelly can be way out of accuracy too, and I have only used on when deep frying or candy making. Most kitchen thermometers have no real means of any kind for calibration, and even digital ones can go bad if they have even the tiniest leak at the sensor point. My $45 digital quick read, was toast after a single year.

Another nice thing about the Pomona is the way it will NOT fail 99.5% of the time. Its citrus based pectin, and most everyone knows that when making citrus based marmalades they can take up to a month to set. If it works well with its own environment, its GOT to be good for most other things. If worst comes to worst, a fald set of jelly can always become a sauce over pancakes, etc.

Yes, as I mentioned, the ORIGINAL calcium carbonate (of years ago) was a bit more unstable and was usually not used after a 30 day period. ONLY mix enough of the powder to make the batch of jam. The color changes are indications of possible botulism, or other toxins, as well as any water based minerals that will react with calcium. Heck even hard water will propbably set the Pomona all by itself, but why not just use what is needed. Its always a good idea to throughouly read ALL the insturctions before trying any recipe or product. Take a determined and positve attitude and dont let any failure bring you down. We all went through it at some point. I made 'RUBBER' jelly once, could use it as a filler for a hole in a boat!

207 degrees at 150 feet altitude measure its not accurate! To be exact and directly dead on, the whole jelly making system would require some very and accurate and very expensive measuring and processing equipment tracable to the National Bureau of Standards. Trust me, no ordinary home has such stuff unless they are operating a fully functional calibration lab.

Just keep in mind that jelly making is not an exact science and can fail, even if every single thing is duplicated perfectly. Today jelly, tomorrow soup, the next day rubber. In commercailly made, its a major loss and expense, so they do not spare cost when it comes to being too accurate for any possible variable. ACIDS are also VERY important, and if they are occuring naturally in the fruits, they can vary greatly at the time of year, time of day, area, soil conditions, as well as growth, and so many more things mother nature can throw at us.

Just hang in there PLEASE!

If people just pass over my info and ignore reading it, they could actually be the cause of their own failures! I just wish everyone would read carefully and be respectful towards everyone else even if they are taken in the wrong context, or are unintentionally rude or otherwise. Home canning is still a hobby FOR MOST, and until it goes commercial (think Lucy and the salad dressing show), its no easy task to get it perfect every time.

I never had any luck with the kind of thermometer you describe, even calibrated, because with no-pectin jams I'm normally cooking small batches in a big kettle. As you said, it makes it very difficult to get an accurate reading without hitting the bottom.

Not to mention the "fun" of trying to get to eye level over a hot kettle of boiling preserves!

I use a Thermapen now, which I love for all kinds of tasks. It is an investment but I've found it well worth it for serious jam-making. DH also likes using it to verify temps in his smoker.

The other option, which I also rely upon, is the cold-plate test. In fact, I never rely upon temp alone and always use the cold plate test in conjunction. By using the two together in time you'll get a better sense of how the mixture should look on the plate.

Barring that, stop the cooking, cool to room temp and put the whole batch in the fridge overnight. By morning you should have a good idea of the firmness of the set.

Check out the link below for info on the Thermapen. I'm not recommending that company; it's just a good illustration and description.

Carol

I've also had little luck with a thermometer, and use the frozenplate test like Carol mentions. I did, when I first started making all my jams without added pectin, use the thermometer as a guide, but still backed my testing up with the cold plate in the freezer. Now I can tell by looking when my jam is nearly ready, there is a visible change to the consistency.

I've done all fruit jams but truthfully, they aren't jelled, they are just fruit cooked until it's a thick spread, much like fruit butter.

I have had pretty good luck with reducing the sugar in old non-pectin recipes. most recipes call for a 1:1 ration of sugar to fruit. I've reduced that to a point where I think I cannot reduce it any more. I recently made apricot jam with 12 cups of apricots and 3 cups of sugar, and I've made pear preserves with 6 cups of pears and 2 cups of sugar. That's approximately a 3:1 ration of fruit to sugar, less than that I start running into problems that have given me several batches of lovely fruit syrups, LOL.

I also make sugar-free jams and jellies for Dad, using Equal instead of sugar. I've used Splenda a couple of times but Dad and I both like the flavor of the Equal better.

It's an on-going experiment, that's for sure, but the sugar can be reduced in the traditional jams and still reach a jell point.

Low sugar spreads do not keep as well as the ones with a lot of sugar in them, so I do them all in half pints which we can use up before they spoil.

All you can do is just keep cooking the jam or jelly until it reaches the necessary temperature. I have a big wide pan with low sides, I use that for jam because I get faster evaporation and a smaller cooking time. Stir diligently, though. Don't ask me how I figured THAT out, LOL.

Annie

Carol,
Do you take the preserves off the heat when you dip the thermapen in? Or is it long enough that you don't get splashed with boiling syrup?
Melly

Melly, usually I don't. It kind of depends on my assessment of how "close" to the finish the preserve is. If I sense it may already be at the jell point, I pull it off anyway to avod overcooking.

But the thermapen is so quick and it's so easy to read the gauge, usually I just dip it in the mixture right on the burner. Haven't gotten splashed yet, but I should probably knock on wood saying that.

Carol

I should have mentioned if you're serious about reducing sugar in traditional preserves, you might want to see if you can locate a jelmeter. They're not made any more, but occasionally one turns up on ebay.

It's just a simple glass tube which measures the viscosity of the juice; from that you can determine the pectin level and the amount of sugar needed for a good set. I think you can also make one. They were in common use among home preservers during the Depression through WWII because no one wanted to waste sugar.

The link to a preview of the Jamlady Cookbook shows a picture and also, I think, mentions a URL for a homemade version. There are jelmeter references and instructions all over the internet. The trick is getting the jelmeter itself. I don't know why it isn't made any more.

Another option is a refractometer to measure the sugar levels, but that may be beyond where you want to go. Lee Valley Tools sells refractometers for this use.

Carol

Reducing the sugar in a pectin-less jam may not set up at all. A while back I tried using Fructose instead of cane. It seemed to scorch very easily, and even with a lot of added pectin, it had a very 'cooked' taste. I finally used up the last of the 50 pound bag of Fructose a while back, so ants wouldn't find it here.

Thanks very much for everyones help.

Folks here are truly remarkable in their knowledge and experience, and certainly in their generosity in sharing. It's inspiring and I am glad to have such a good place to ask questions that may arise.

Cheers, Roof

Sorry to resurect an old post but I just got around to trying my experiment.

I know that I was not doing anything wrong with the pomona pectin and calcium water. I know how to follow directions and had made hundreds and hundreds of jars of jam and jelly with no problems with their product.

I believe the problem is that their website tells you the calcium water will keep its potency for "several months" in the fridge (it should say indefinitely if it does not go bad). So if I only can once this year, I cannot be sure that the calcium water in my fridge from last year is still potent. If it was not, I just wasted all my fruit, so I felt I had to make another batch to ensure potency. This is how you run out of calcium powder quicker than pectin.
Unfortunately, Pomona will not sell you only the calcium powder.

However, chemically speaking "calcium" is "calcium" and it shouldn't matter the source, so I dissolved pickle crisp in water and used my pomona pectin with that.
NO PROBLEMS!! Gelled wonderfully, just like with calcium powder they supply.
I am not going to worry about it anymore, when I buy new pectin, I will use their calcium powder, but if I run out, I know that pickle crisp or any other food grade calcium product will work.

I used basically the same measurements as the pomona people list in their insert. I did add a small amount (1/2 teaspoon) more pickle crisp to the water because what I have is granulated instead of powdered (like the MCP in pomona) so not as much would fit in a measuring spoon, although you could also do this by weight.

thanks again
kendra

;) still need to get that better thermometer though..!

The latest info on the calcium, when mixed with water is that if it darkens or turns an off color, toss it. Why would you want to mix the WHOLE PACKET of calcium powder with water in the first place?? They give you EXTRA calcium in that packet anyway. If you are only using PART of a package of the Pomona pectin, like 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4, measure out the whole packet of calcium powder too, which is a tiny amount, and then measure only the 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 amount of it. PUT THE UNUSED PORTION OF THE REST OF the CALCIUM POWDER BACK INTO THAT SMALL PACKET, fold it over and tape it shut! Then mix that measured amount you juts got, with some water (any amount of water up to 1/4 cup!). I think your 'over analyzing' showing way too much concern about a 'small additive' that is used to trigger the setting up of the Pomona pectin (citrus based).
I have not tried it yet, but I bet if you mixed a little BAKING SODA or CALCIUM CHLORIDE (Pickle Crisp) into water, it would ALSO make the Pomona pectin set up just exactly the same!! Because you seem to indicate that your making small batches of jellies, you may want stick with the low/no sugar pectins from SureJel or Ball, etc., ss they only make about 5 cups at a time. If you find the Pomona too difficult or confusing to deal with. These other pectins do not need calcium, BUT must be exact when measuring the total liquid for the batch. NO THERMOMETER NEEDED FOR ANY OF THESE!!

Here is a example of a (no recipe!!) the I used to make my apricot preserves. I simply cut up and removed the stones of about 35 apricots, added a little mango nectar juice, and a small package of cut up dried California apricots and acup of water. Used a WHOLE BOX of Pomona, but mixed it with some water and the rest of the mango juice in a blender until it was dissolved. Added plenty of asorbic acid, and Splenda to the now boiling apricots, as well as my favorite 'acid blend' to boost the 'character' and flavor of the 'cots. TASTED until I felt it was sweet enough with the SPLENDA. Then, while boiling, I poured in the dissolved Pomona. Stir well while bringing back to a boil again. Then, I added the WHOLE packet of calcium that was now mixed with a little water (still a 1/4 cup). Stirring while adding it. The spoon now showed a coating and soft globs forming when I lifted it out. Got my jars ready and filled 13 pints. Then BWB processed. End result, perfection!! NO recipe, no worrying, no failure, no probelms, and no setting up failures!! simple... Pomona is good stuff!! It is virtually foolproof!!

Best of luck!

Hello.

Just to explain. Pectins molecules do possess negatively charged acidic groups (COO-), so at first they repell each other (because they bear identical electric charges) and do not for a gel. So you need to neutralize these charges with H+ (acidic) ions. This can be done two ways. First one: add acids, using very acidic fruits (citrus, redcurrant etc) or adding lemon juice. Of course adding too much lemon juice will give a taste. Second one: add a lot of sugar. Sugar is not acidic, but when dissolving it will "confiscate" a good deal of water molecules, so you will still have the same amount of H+ ions but in less reamaining free water, which amounts to increase their concentration. Of course if you try to make "light" jam and thus add less sugar, you will not be able to obtain a gel. In industrial process, you add calcium Ca++ ions to bind pectin molecules together and create another gel structure than in home made products.