It isn't that something could "go bad" necessarily although bacteria (including botulism) and molds are very real possibilities.

It is because

(1) there are no known processing times for quarts,

(2) salsa is a mixture of acid and LOW-acid ingredients rather than all acid ingredients and low-acid ingredients are normally pressure canned only,

(3) to be both tasty AND safe it requires a fine-line balance of acid for the pH and BWB processing and while you could, in theory, process the he*l out of the quarts in a pressure canner you wouldn't want to eat the results, and

(4) it is eaten fresh from the jar so any bacteria that may have developed during shelf storage aren't killed by further cooking after opening.

NCHFP has a number of research publications on salsa safety available on their website if you want to review them.

Dave

It is a density issue in cases like that. The heat cannot penetrate the larger jars in a manner in which it will killl all the bacteria. It is never safe to use a larger jar than called for.

I have done over 100 quart jars of Annie's Salsa. Never knew I could not do it. I just did it. My mother always told me I can do anything I make up my mind to do.

Can is often used where may or should ought to be.

You can do it, you should not, but no law says you may not.

Since salsa contains low-acid ingredients like peppers, onions and garlic it is one of the riskier propositions. Especially because, as mentioned, it's eaten from the jar without additional cooking.

So hypothetically, there could be botulism in untested home-concocted and canned recipes or in recipes canned but with inadequate heat penetration.

There's an article at the link which explains some of the issues.

The main issue with quarts is that size jar has not been tested. Perhaps the processing time is sufficient for safety, perhaps not. It's an unknown.

But really, no one here is controlling the choices any canner makes, so if anyone wants to can salsa in quarts, they can do it. After all, we're not eating it.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Safety Important when Preserving Salsa

I don't know whether it's been discussed before, but can anyone say why salsa in quarts hasn't been tested? Is it because of the cost of testing or lack of interest? Or is it just that they have tested and haven't yet found a safe recipe/processing time for quarts? I prefer pints for salsa anyway, but I'm just curious as to how it all works.

I would guess that it's lack of funding. I asked once about pressure canning tomato paste (which is a pretty basic product) but no testing had been done.

For years the processing time for fish was limited to 8 oz. jars and pints. Finally in this last edition of So Easy to Preserve a processing time was added for quarts.

It is also true that sometimes the longer processing time would have an effect on quality. Some products have even been re-tested (like summer squash) but testing demonstrated that a processing time sufficient to cover all the variables in pH and water activity would have been so long what the canner would have ended up with was squash "mush." So they just pulled the recommendation.

It's ironic that at the same time there's a resurgence of interest in canning and canning safety is so important, the Extension services are struggling with funding.

As Linda Lou said recently, things are now so bad that the NCHFP is basically on "inactive" status.

We're going to see a lot less testing and I would venture to guess any new recipes will come from Ball and Bernardin. The Jarden Corporation is making money hand over fist. (I believe 20%+ increase in sales each of the last two years - I should buy stock.)

Carol

I agree with Carol as to the reasons but I think that quality of the end product if canned in quarts for a sufficient amount of time is the primary reason.

NCHFP was doing a good amount of research into salsas before all the funding cuts. But quarts weren't the focus even then because of the effects of longer processing required.

One also has to consider the safe fridge life of a quart of salsa once opened. It isn't something that is commonly consumed in quart amounts all at one time. So it sits, opened, in the fridge for the rest of the time. Given its borderline pH, its unknown processing time, the bacterial growth refrigeration only slows but doesn't stop, the safety of the left-overs would quickly come into question. Pints have a limited fridge life too but the odds are they will be consumed faster.

Like Kay said above, what someone "can" do and what someone "should" do aren't the same thing. Each person has to make that choice for themselves.

But for me, since (a) there are no advantages in canning it in quarts, and (b) there are potential disadvantages, and (c) no one has any idea whatsoever how long the quarts would have to be processed and they are just guessing, common sense says do it in pints only.

Dave

In one of the Annie's salsa threads, Annie herself says that Extension approved BWB at 15 minutes for pints and 20 minutes for quarts.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg082200459418.html

Personally I don't can it in quarts, since I could never eat that much salsa in a sitting. But I've told other people it was OK to use quarts if they use this recipe and this source.

In one of the Annie's salsa threads, Annie herself says that Extension approved BWB at 15 minutes for pints and 20 minutes for quarts.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg082200459418.html

There are also many discussions about how that early approval for quarts was canceled/withdrawn/voided whatever you want to call it. If you have kept a copy of the recipe that info needs to be added to it.

Dave

Good rule of thumb: IF IN DOUBT, THROW IT OUT. There are several recipes which take into account canning in quart jars. In MOST of the recipes I have, it's the time suggested in the water bath. It's usually 10-15 minutes longer for quarts than for pints. You are making a hugh batch, the same mixture is going into jar 1 as jar 12. I use several sizes of jars for salsa and PER THE RECIPES, adjust the process time. Usually the 8oz and the pints (according to 'The Complete Book of Home Preserving' by Ball)have the same process time. Here is a site I have used upon occasion: www.canning-recipes.com.....Ya know, thank goodness my great-granny, granny, aunts & mom taught me to can. Common sense is a great asset!

Do what you want, but I will not tell you it is safe to process in quarts. It is never considered safe to use a jar larger than listed in a recipe. I do not know why Annie woulld have been told it was fine to use quarts. Especially since no other of the USDA/ extension recipes for salsas are safe for quarts.
There is Mexican tomato SAUCE in quarts, but the density of that sauce is different than the salsas and also the Mexican tomato sauce is pressure canned, not done in a BWB canner.
There is no way to just add time to canning recipes, use a larger jar, and insure it is safe.

Yes, there are many recipes that account for canning in quarts. There are other recipes, like full-sugar jams, that don't, but due to the nature of the product, risk is negligible. Even then the risk is mold and loss of product, not safety.

However, salsa is not one of those options.

If bacteria responded to common sense and if I lived in the world my great-grandmother did, I'd be more influenced. But in the case of canning I prefer science. New strains of resistant bacteria (witness the more powerful flesh-eating bacteria presenting such terrible problems in hospitals and antibiotic-resistant strains continuously evolving) now exist.

The problem with Annie's salsa is that there are still available threads on this Forum going back to 2005. In the world of canning and food research, 5 years is an eternity.

During that time the Extension service which originally recommended a time for quarts pulled that recommendation and also the reduced-vinegar version which was pressure-canned.

Are those options unsafe? It's an unknown. But lacking the resources for testing, Michigan Extension rescinded those recommendations. Annie made that clear in later threads, so in referencing Annie's salsa, it's important to check the latest postings, not the earliest.

Again, though, people do what they want. All we do is point out potential risk.

Carol

I was going to say the same thing. just add vinegar.

Sorry but that doesn't cut it. First because there are so many varied salsa recipes out there that you'd have no way of knowing how much vinegar you would have to add to each to stabilize the pH at a safe level and keep it there. And second because adding vinegar in no way compensates for the variable density issues nor does it eliminate the cold pockets that result where bacteria can survive and grow.

You'd be better off adding bottled lemon or lime juice than vinegar anyway since it is 2x as acidic as vinegar.

Dave

These may seem simple questions, but I'm just learning about canning, and some of the safety recommendations confuse me (not difficult to accomplish.)

I can buy quart jars (even plastic jars) of salsa in the supermarket. Does anyone know how the commercial salsa companies can large sizes? Is it a special process, and why can't that process be down-scaled to a kitchen environment?

It is actually a fairly common question here - "Why can't I can anything that commercial canning companies do?" The simple answer is irradiation and other equipment they have that we don't have at home like that as well as huge walk-in autoclaves and pressure over that can reach over 500 degrees plus all the stabilizers, preservatives and additives in the commercial products. Discovery/Science Channel has done a really good series on commercial food processing that is quite enlightening when it comes to explaining the differences between home and commercial food processing.

But in the case of salsa it is really the lacking of funding for research and testing. Since it is a borderline pH food and so subject to botulism (unlike pickles, jams, and other high acid foods) it really needs to be researched and tested. Unfortunately right about the time that home canning resurged in popularity and the interest in doing it with salsa exploded all the federal funding was eliminated for USDA testing. What testing had been done up to that point was for pints only so ingredients amounts, added acid amounts, and processing times for quarts was never done. Add to that the umpteen recipes folks have for what they call "salsa" and the issue becomes even more complex.

And to be honest the priority for research on quarts isn't all that high even if the funding was available simply because all any one has to do if they need a quart of it is to open 2 pints. Underlying that prioritizing is the oft forgotten true purpose of home food preservation - preserving the basic foods during times of plenty for use in times of need (or when in season for use when out of season).

The history of canning doesn't really recognize the need for canning salsas and similar niche foods. That is a modern concept of the hurry-up, convenience generation. Rather home canning has always been directed toward preserving tomatoes, peppers, onions, the herbs and other ingredients in their basic form. Then they can be used to make all sorts of things, to make one's favorite recipes AFTER opening the jars. That is the simple and safe approach. It is only the current generation that insists that all their food in jars be in the finished, ready-to-eat form.

I'm not saying it must be that way or that things can't or shouldn't change and slowly they are. But I think it helps to understand why, in addition to the funding issues, we simply don't have some of the methods and info we'd like to have and why sometimes we really don't need to have them. :)

Dave.

As Dave mentioned in the first post, the other "problem" with salsa is that it is eaten cold from the jar and not reheated. So, most foods WHICH HAVE BEEN PROPERLY PROCESSED can be made safe(r) with a 10 minute boiling to destroy bacteria/etc. The 10 minute boil cannot be used to make improperly processed food safe, however, the contaminant load may simply be too great.

So, anyway, salsa is not further cooked and so not subject to the 10 minute boil, and that adds another element of question to the processing of salsa, which contains low acid ingredients.

I guess I just don't see why salsa NEEDS to be in quarts. Open two pints. (shrug) I know that requires one extra flat lid but jars are infinitely recyclable so that's no extra cost other than the flat and a bit more storage space. Something that's low acid and not reheated seems to me to be something that I want to take a bit more time making sure it's safe to eat.

And yes, that's coming from me, the rebel, rule-breaker and constant questioner. We all get to choose our risks, and that's not one that I want to take. Your choice, of course, is your own.

Annie

Would the balls pint and a half jars be safe for Annie's Salsa with the same BWB processing time as used for pints? Same diameter as the wide mouth pint jars. I don't know why I would ever need to use them for salsa as I only have a couple dozen compared to over 100 wide mouth pints. So far I have just used them for pickled Gus and gherkins.

<Would the balls pint and a half jars be safe for Annie's Salsa with the same BWB processing >

No. Half again as much volume would require a longer processing time for full heat penetration - a time we don't have available to us. When the pint and half jars are used for low-acid foods they are processed for quart processing times when available. If no quart processing is given then save them for use with high acid foods only.

Dave

Thanks Dave...that's what I thought even though it seems that heat penetration would be the same if the jar diameters were equal. I've always used the quart processing time with them for pickles and Gus.

I know this is over 5-10 years ago but could someone give me some current answers to the pints over quarts please? I only have quarts and a tons of tomatoes need to use soon. Any help would be great.

I was going to use the Annie's salsa recipe. HELP!!

Salsa needs to be canned in pints or smaller. There are no changes to the expert advice in this forum.

Agree with Liz. No changes or testing have taken place per canning salsa in quarts. There are no approved recipes that I know of.

I also agree. My salsa recipe was only tested using pints, and I don't know of any recipes that allow the use of quarts. Because salsa is eaten from the jar and not heated, proper processing is even more important.

You might consider pressure canning something like this:

https://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_salsa/mexican_tomato_sauce.html

Annie

How about the 1 1/2 pint jars? They are the same diameter as a wide mouth pint, just taller….

Same still applies....pints only. The pint + 1/2 jars are half again the volume and have not been tested, so not approved. The processing time for pint jars would be voided and you'd be guessing rather than knowing how many minutes was safe. Especially important since this is a product eaten cold from the jar, or at least only occasionally heated and cooked into a recipe.

Just can the tomatoes alone, so you can do it safely in quart-sized jars. Freeze or dehydrate any peppers or onions or garlic for long term storage. Then you still have all the ingredients and can throw them together in a jiffy.