The Heinz dills wouldn't be my recipe; all I could take credit for is posting it.

But, to get to your questions, when the pickles are canned, they can absorb some of the liquid or float above the level of the liquid. Eventually they will tend to sink if they're floating.

This is not a safety issue. If the seal is good there is a vacuum and the worst that will happen is the pickles above the brine won't be as "pickle-y." But you can leave them the way they are. If you don't like that piece when you open the jar, just trim it off.

Refrigerating the half-sours would be the best idea. They may not be as fully developed flavor-wise, but they should still be good. I would not carry them in a car.

Good luck with your pickle adventures!

Carol

Linda Z's recipe for half-sours says "Keep the jar at room temperature, with a dish underneath if the seeping brine might do some damage otherwise.

2. Within 3 days you should see tiny bubbles rising in the jar; this means that fermentation has begun.
If scum forms on top of the brine, skim it off daily, and rinse off the brine bag. lf so much brine bubbles out that the pickles aren't well covered, add some more brine
made in the same proportion of salt to water.

3. The pickles should be ready within a week, when they taste sour and when the tiny bubbles have stopped rising.
Skim off any scum at the top of the jar, cap the jar, and store the pickles in the refrigerator for about 3 days, after which time they should be olive-green throughout.
They are best eaten within about 3 weeks."

I thought when I posted about the restaurant pickles (like a half sour) you referenced this recipe and said it would be safe b/c of the proportion of salt to water to size of jars? I also figured since they were fermented they'd be safer? The restaurant recipe only had them out of the fridge an hour, Linda Lou said that wasn't safe since they weren't fermented.

So when should I put the half-sours in the fridge? Now (4+ hours)? Tonight? Tomorrow? End of the week?

I'd only transport them if they were still fermenting, I'd have to put lids on them and put them in a cooler to drive an hour or so.

I won't swear to it but I understood Carol's other post to say the salt ratio in that recipe was ok, not that the recipe as a whole or the jar size was ok. Fermenting requires some special care, special air temperatures, and equipemnt - like the deep containers I mentioned in the other thread. They are then canned or refrigerated AFTER fermenting in the smaller jars. In other words it is a 2 stage process usually.

Have you read through all of the fermenting info at NCHFP? If not I strongly suggest you do and i linked it below.

I think part of the confusion here - at least it is confusing me as we seem to be talking about 2 totally different recipes and process - may be that you are mixing lacto-fermented pickle processes with quick-pack processed pickles aka brined or vinegar pickles. I know the posts are crossing each other. ;)

They are very different processes - note how the recipes are separated in the books and in totally different sections at NCHFP? And quick-pack or vinegar based recipes are much safer and easier to do than fermented recipes. All they require is some cukes, some jars, some vinegar, and some dried spices.

But if you want to make fermented pickles then you really need to learn about the process, how it works, and get the things needed to do it first. For fermenting you need canning or kosher salt - which is measured very differently than canning salt), a deep glass or plastic container with an opening that can be sealed off completely, air temps between 65-72 degrees, etc. for the fermenting.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHF_ - Fermenting

Thanks Dave - I did make a salt water brine to make Linda Z's half-sours, and a vinegar-water-salt mix for the Heinz Dills which were processed 10 min in a BWB. I know the posts are crossing, but I did 2 different types of pickles (3 if you count the slicing cuke I put in the leftover vinegar solution, but I'm going to see how that is as a "salad" tonight).

Thanks for the link, I've been reading about fermenting the past couple days and followed Linda Z's recipe and instructions, will see if I need to change the container.

The issue here is that HALF SOUR pickles are no longer recommended as safe, period. They are not fully fermented to have enough lactic acid made to prevent listeria. Listera still grows in the fridge.
There used to be recipes and methods given by the USDA for making them, but they have been pulled. They were not called half sours, but refrigerator pickles. Same thing.

So, if you are aware of the listeria danger and want to make them, they that is your choice.
They won't be fully fermented after that period of time in the recipe in Linda Z's book. Just because you find it in a book doesn't mean it is USDA certified as safe. Some people only go by USDA safety guidelines, others don't.
If you go by the link that Dave sent you will only find fully fermented pickles and how to make them.
So, what you do with them is your choice.
Even if you decide to keep them as is you should put in a larger container and not pint jars.

Thanks - I knew refrigerator pickles weren't considered safe, but thought that since the "half-sours" were fermented they would be, esp. when Carol mentioned the recipe.

So, they've been at room temp for almost 8 hrs. Nothing was sterilized, so I don't want to BWB them. Stick them in the fridge and eat them over the next few days?

BTW, I tasted the ones I put the vinegar solution on and stuck in the fridge - yum! Those will be gone by tomorrow!

We do have 2 pints of the quick-pack canned dill pickles in the basement now (no rings in case they explode).

OK, I don't know how many times I have to say this but I'll say it once more. Linda Ziedrich is a Master Food Preserver and her recipes have been tested for safety by Oregon State and an Emeritus professor of food science at the University of Connecticut.

We all know of recipes which "break the rules" yet have been verified as suitable for canning. There are a number on the NCHFP site (i.e. peppers marinated in oil) and in the Ball Blue Book (i.e. flour-thickened mustard pickles).

I would venture to say Ziedrich knows about listeria and would not include in her book (and I am referring to the newest 2009 edition) a recipe which poses known risks. If you have concerns, email her and see what she has to say.

If she put in her book a recipe which shouldn't be there, we all need to know it.

I will also repeat that according to Dr. Andress, not all refrigerator pickles are "unsafe." A blanket prohibition is not accurate.

I recommended refrigeration because it seemed to me difficult to maintain the consistent temperature and conditions desireable for fermentation while traveling, nothing more.

Fermentation can be sensitive, but if you think you have it covered and want to take your cukes for a road trip, more power to you.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Contact Linda Ziedrich

I was hoping that they'd be fermented enough by Friday to stick in the fridge, but too late now, I added a little vinegar and put them in the fridge already. We finished the pint of "salad" in vinegar/salt water at dinner, so I drained and rinsed 1 pint of the "sours" (just salty at that point) and dumped them into the leftover brine, may do the same with the last pint tomorrow if we all eat the vinegary cukes tomorrow.

Maybe I'll try the half sours again some other time. I'll let you know if a month how the dills turned out (unless they explode b4 then LOL).

Thanks for the contact info - I will contact her b4 I try the half-sours again.

Now we are just confusing things even more for someone new to pickle making. Let's try some adjectives and adverbs, ok?

There are no "officially" approved sour or refrigerator pickle recipes as Linda Lou and the USDA/NCHFP (the recognized authorities) say. The concern is listeria.

"Unofficially" there are recipes for those from sources that are very likely quite safe as Carol says, depending on the credentials of the recipe author, and they are used by many. Listeria is, however, still a concern over storage time even in the fridge.

In other words, as with everything, there are levels of approval and safety - a whole bunch of them. You chose the level you are comfortable with.

"Officially" only approved recipes should be used. "Unofficially" it is your choice of course.

thought that since the "half-sours" were fermented they would be...safe

Fermentation in NO way guarantees safety regardless of the food involved and that assumption shows a lack of understanding of the process and how it works. Thus my earlier referral to all the fermenting info at NCHFP.

Fermentation has a higher learning curve than quick pack, it can more easily be screwed up/mis-managed/go bad/be contaminated, so the related risk is potentially increased.

Because of the higher learning curve and the risks associated with the process, IMO fermentation is NOT something that those new to pickling and canning should undertake. But if they choose to do so, then they should stick with the officially approved and tested recipes fermenting recipes and methods provided by NCHFP/BBB until they gain the knowledge and experience required to make informed choices.

Dave

Well, since I am so confused, I'm not even going to try. I hope the vinegar dills I canned are OK, but I'm not going to try fermenting anything. I *did* read the NFCP instructions, but they say either do BWB or a "low-temperature" (180 degrees) process. I thought Linda Z's week of fermenting would be worth a try, seemed easy enough - but I'm not up to a full crock of 25 lbs of pickles in my dad's old salt crock.

but they say either do BWB or a "low-temperature" (180 degrees) process

See, this is what I am talking about. That is done AFTER you ferment them and then ONLY if you want to can them for shelf-storage.

Making fermented pickles and canning pickles that have been fermented are 2 separate processes and that is what is so confusing to new pickle makers. You are not alone in your confusion. Everyone new to pickle making has this problem - distinguishing between the different types of pickles and the stages of the process.

NCHFP says: Dissolve salt in vinegar and water and pour over cucumbers. Add suitable cover and weight. Store where temperature is between 70ºF and 75ºF for about 3 to 4 weeks while fermenting. Temperatures of 55º to 65ºF are acceptable, but the fermentation will take 5 to 6 weeks. Avoid temperatures above 80ºF, or pickles will become too soft during fermentation. Fermenting pickles cure slowly. Check the container several times a week and promptly remove surface scum or mold. Caution: If the pickles become soft, slimy, or develop a disagreeable odor, discard them. Fully fermented pickles may be stored in the original container for about 4 to 6 months, provided they are refrigerated and surface scum and molds are removed regularly. Canning fully fermented pickles is a better way to store them. To can them, pour the brine into a pan, heat slowly to a boil, and simmer 5 minutes. Filter brine through paper coffee filters to reduce cloudiness, if desired. Fill jar with pickles and hot brine, leaving 1/2-inch headspace. Adjust lids and process as recommended in Table 1 , or use the low-temperature pasteurization treatment described below.

Perhaps it is easier if you think of sauerkraut as it is the same process. Cabbage is fermented in a large jar or crock for 3-6 weeks. Then when it is finished fermenting, it can either be kept in the fridge for a few weeks OR it is canned in a BWB fir shelf storage.

The same is true of Linda Z recipe - first you ferment them. Then you refrigerate OR you can them.

Dave

Sorry - I was referring to the fresh-pack. I don't have a candy thermometer, so wouldn't do the low-temp pastuerization. So I BWB's my fresh-pack dills.

"Regular dill pickles and sauerkraut are fermented and cured for about 3 weeks. Refrigerator dills are fermented for about 1 week. During curing, colors and flavors change and acidity increases. Fresh-pack or quick-process pickles are not fermented; some are brined several hours or overnight, then drained and covered with vinegar and seasonings. "

I thought the half-sours would be OK fermenting for a week and then stuck in the fridge, but Linda Lou says risky. No way am I going to get into fermenting for a month (not to mention the quantities given in the recipes are too much).

So I'm sticking with fresh-pack (if these turn out OK). They weren't brined at all before processing though, the recipe for "Heinz Dills" that Carol posted didn't mention any brining time so I processed them right away. The one NCHFP recipe for quick dills had them sitting in salt water for 12 hours, but I thought that was only to draw out water, not to preserve them - I chose to ice bathe them overnight instead for crispness. We'll see.

I'm beginning to believe the conspiracy theories that the government doesn't want us to can anything at all, the list of tested and approved recipes just keeps getting shorter.

The fact that the USDA hasn't officially approved a recipe doesn't make it automatically unsafe, it only means that the government hasn't taken the time or money to test it. I think if a recipe has been tested by two separate qualified authorities it's probably OK, even if the USDA hasn't gotten around to saying so.

Makes me darned glad I don't like pickles!

Annie

Yeah, the NCHFP didn't even have a recipe for 1-week fermentation even though they mentioned it (and didn't say "refrigerator pickles aren't USDA approved."). Only choices there are quick process or long (full) fermentation.

I guess it was another website that mentioned 25 lbs of cukes - I could possibly cut down a 4-lb NCHFP recipe by half like I did the ones I made today. Still don't want to ferment a month.

We like the sour pickles, esp. the half-sours but also dills as long as they're crisp. Can't stand sweet pickles. DH wants me to pickle okra but I think I need a pressure canner for that.

Pickled okra is 10 mins. in a BWB.

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP - Pickled Okra

Oh, thanks - we don't have any okra, didn't plant any and I've never seen it fresh up here. The frozen stuff is slimy. DH says his mom used a "pressure canner/cooker thingie" so I figured it was like green beans. I'm a Yankee and don't know anything about okra. You just pack it in vinegar solution raw like dill pickles?

The quick pack pickles you made and processed are not in question. Since we can no longer email the NCHFP at the Univ. of Georgia I cannot email Elizabeth Andress and ask her about Linda Z's method . They have no funding for it any longer to answer emails .

This was the findings of their tests on refrigerator pickles .We are taught to not recommend making them. We are told to only recommend a fully fermented pickle. Then they are to be stored in the fridge or processed and stored on the shelf. So, I will say no more and let you all decide for yourself.:

Conclusion

Based on old recommendations, consumption of refrigerator dill pickles could typically occur anytime after 3 days of refrigerated storage
Since L. monocytogenes may still be viable well after this point, there is a food safety risk involved
Recommendations to prepare this product in the home should not be distributed .

Here is a link that might be useful: Listeria in refrigerator pickles.

I emailed Linda Z and she must have read this thread b/c she referenced the study Linda Lou linked to (I didn't reference it in the email). Here is her reply:

"Thanks for letting me know about this study, which I had not heard of. I'll have to look into it further.
BUT: If the abstract is correct, there are a couple of fishy things about the study. First, a pickle with a 7.6% brine concentration couldn't complete its fermentation within 7 days; the process would normally take months. Second, the pickle would be so salty that no one would be able to eat it. Note that the listeria cells were found only in the extremely salty pickles that were barely fermented, if they were fermented at all.
Also, note that the authors don't tell us how a pickle jar might get contaminated with listeria, if a scientist didn't add an inoculant. Perhaps a blind pickler might stick a dead mouse in the jar in place of a cucumber?
Although I'm not a food-safety expert, my understanding is that listeria infections have been associated with raw milk, fresh cheese, undercooked meat and poultry, and raw seafood. I have not heard of anyone getting listeriosis from pickles.
Cleanliness is a good idea, though. I advise washing jars with hot water and detergent. I really doubt that a clean glass jar could harbor listeria bacteria. Pitted crockery might harbor unwanted microbes, however, so I wash crocks with boiling water and dry them in the sun.
I use new Ziploc bags to be sure they won't leak. I don't wash them first. If I ran out of new Ziploc bags, I'd choose one in good condition that was thoroughly clean.
There are a couple of other important things for GardenWeb readers to understand: First, "refrigerator pickles," to me and to most people, means pickles made with vinegar, usually in small quantities, and stored in the refrigerator. This is not the sort of pickle the study was concerned with. Second, half-sours aren't half-fermented. They're made with a weak brine, so fermentation goes faster and is completed sooner.
Feel free to quote me, and thanks again for writing."