I'm sorry but Fruit Fresh isn't an acidifying agent and using it on tomatoes isn't of benefit nor approved. The only approved acidifiers are bottled lemon (1 T per pint and 2 T perquart) or vinegar (5%). Also, the processing time depends on if you hot packed or cold packed. Hot pack is 45 mins. but cold packed tomatoes processing time is 85 minutes.

So, yes, you are taking a chance with the canned tomatoes.

As to the ketchup, it can be done in BWB IF you used an approved recipe. Processing time for pints is 15 mins. so you have plenty of time but I can't say if your vinegar ratio is safe as it hasn't been tested.

Your tomato sauce has the same problem as the tomatoes - no acid and not enough of it - especially with all those added low-acid veggies.

You can only reprocess within 24 hours so it is too late for that now even with a pressure canner. About all you can do now is freeze all of them to stop any further spoilage and then hard boil all of them for 15 mins. prior to use. That approach, while used by some, is not a guarantee of safety. The only real guarantee of safety is to dump them. Sorry.

It all boils down to how much risk you are comfortable with. That's something we all have to decide for ourselves.

A current approved canning book would be of great benefit or you can review all the current guidelines and approved recipes at the link below.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: National Center for Home Food Processing

Forgot to mention. You can also use citric acid. It is approved in place of the lemon juice.

Dave

PS: You might also want to review the other current discussion on this down the page called Pressure Canning Tomatoes for other opinions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Citric acid discussions

Thanks so much for the advice. One more question - what is the difference between ascorbic acid powder and citric acid powder? Also, can you test a finished product for safety and acid content after the jar has been opened?

Citric acid is an organic acid used as a preservative and an antimicrobial, a germicidal found in many disinfectants. Citric acid is sold in stores as Sour Salt and used to kill bacteria and retard spoilage.

Ascorbic acid is just plain old vitamin C.

You can Google the 2 compounds to see the differing chemical structures and uses for both.

The only thing you can test is the pH of the finished product using litmus paper or a pH meter to determine if it is acidic enough to have prevented the growth of botulism spores. Or you can pay to have the product tested in a food lab.

Keep in mind that many canned tomatoes for years with no added acid - not safe but it was done. Some still refuse to add the acid and prefer to take the risk as they claim to dislike the taste and that they will be cooking the product further before eating it. The argument doesn't work for things like ketchup and salsa but may work for tomatoes and tomato sauce.

For most of us, the risk simply isn't worth it but as I said before, ultimately the decision is up to you.

Dave

Fruit Fresh is NOT an acidifier per se. Its meant as an ANTIOXIDENT to keep things like peaches and apples from turning brown in canning. The proper ACIDIFER is either granulated citric acid or bottled lemon or bottled lime juice. This same question has been covered numerous times here just a few days ago, as well as many other posts for the exact same question you posted. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is ONLY to be used to prevent browning of foods if canned or frozen. That's it limit and is NOT recommended for adding extra acid to tomatoes. In fact, it will have no effect in tomatoes whatsoever, as tomatoes have enough of it naturally that they do not need any added. Suggest you do a search on the key word 'citric' It will bring up literally thousands of posts! Citric acid is VERY necessary for aLL canned tomato products. In fact its also added to all commercially made tomato products as well. Be careful!!

Citric acid is not a powder as it comes in granular form. Same with ascorbic acid, which is also is granular. Don't mix up the two!

Ok, I have one more question. Both the ketchup and the tomato sauce were boiled for around 3 - 4 hours. I read that it takes 6 hours to kill the botulism spores, but not that long to kill the bacteria prior to canning. I certainly am going to use a pressure canner and citric acid in the future... but just before I throw out all my work I want to know for sure it makes good sense. If I do save it, I will boil everything for 15 minutes. I also could boil it in my pressure cooker that I use for soups if that would make it any safer. Thank you again for your help and patience with my questions.

Ketchup does contain quite a lot of vinegar too. Usually cider vinegar is used. If you need it thicker, you can add dried tomato powder as well as dried granulated onion, peppers, and garlic. All these soak up the liquid and it contains acid too. Mrs. Wages has a kechup mix, but at best it lacks real 'character', so I add more spices, and like just a slight bit of heat too. Pressure canning ketchup is fine. For store bought ketchup, I never even refrigerate it as its keeps nearly forever on the shelf (after its opened) due to the acidity it contains. Ketchup also has plenty of sugar.

I want to know for sure it makes good sense

We can't tell you that. It wouldn't be responsible of me to say yes it is safe when I know it wasn't done correctly. Sorry. You'll have to decide that for yourself.

All I can do is tell you what I'd do if it was me.

Of the 3 types of things you listed - tomatoes, ketchup, and tomato sauce the most risky is the plain tomatoes because they have no acid and the least amount of cooking. I'd pitch them.

The next most risky is the tomato sauce because you added all those other low-acid ingredients to it. Sure it cooked for a long time but there is no acid to prevent bacterial growth and being so low-acid, bacterial growth is encouraged in it. I'd put a couple of jars in the fridge and use them within the next few days - well cooked - and pitch the rest.

The ketchup at least has the vinegar, whether or not it is enough I can't say for sure. 1-3 cups is a big guessing range. But it does have it, so with the vinegar and the long cooking time, it is likely the safest. But since you can't specify the amount of vinegar it's just not worth the risk to me. I'd pitch it.

But that is just my personal opinion and likely others will disagree with me. Ultimately, its your choice.

Dave

Part of the problem with something like botulism is the long cooking you mention (i.e. with tomatoes sustaining a boil for 10 minutes or more) will kill any toxins which might be present.

However, even long cooking will not kill botulism spores, so when the jar is sealed and processed what's been created is the potential for the spores to create a whole new batch of toxins. Botulism loves warmth, water, low acid and an anaerobic environment. Canning such as you've described creates a kind of "Botulism Hilton." It's the perfect environment.

Carol

Well I guess I should be dead, cause I haven't been following the "new" rules.
Do I dare admit that when I make spaghetti sauce, which consists of tomatoes, onions, peppers, garlic and mushrooms, along with spices (no acid)....it gets cooked for 12-24 hours, but I don't even hot water bath it. I simply sterile the jars in the oven, boil the lids in water and then fill the hot jars with boiling sauce and cap them. If they don't seal, I refridgerate and use. Have used sauce as old as 3 years with no problems
Like the others stated...You will have to decide for yourself if it is safe.
Good Luck

Sorry Flora but these aren't "new" rules. They have been in effect for close to 20 years.

As yes, if you haven't even been processing it in a BWB much less pressure canning it as has been required for many years, then you are very very lucky indeed and so is anyone else who may have eaten it. Lastly, ovens to NOT sterilize jars. This method of so-called "sterilization" does not hold up to testing and contamination does occur.

For your own sake, you really need to update your techniques or at least avoid recommending such unsafe and outdated canning techniques to others.

Dave

It's like any other lottery. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Since botulism is undetectable by sight, smell or taste, every bottle you open is a crap shoot.

The fact that nothing has happened . . . yet is not a predictor of the future.

And, as Dave mentioned, these "new" rules have been recommended by the USDA since 1988.

But, we all have a different tolerance for risk. It's totally up to you.

If there is a concern, it's only that novices not arrive at the mistaken conclusion that the methods you use are current best practice.

Carol

Winning or losing the lottery is more like a million to one shot. Better comparisons are a coin toss with a 50:50 chance. For well over 30 years I always use more vinegar called for in all my pickles. Tomatoes were also given plenty of acid. Some, to the point of taming it down with sugar when its been opened.

What is the minimum desired pH to guarantee a safe product from water bath canning?

Do you mean maximum? The pH can be no higher than 4.6.

However, tested recipes and commercial recipes generally fall well below that, somewhere around 3.8 to provide a good margin of error.

Even with a pH monitor you have to know what you're doing and how to measure the pH. You could have a mixture that tests out at 4.3, for example, yet within that mixture there are lower-acid chunks that still present risk.

That also doesn't allow for the density issue, which affects heat penetration and processing time.

The whole process is fraught with risk. Use of pH meters and litmus strips can result in a hazardous over-confidence.

Carol

lakelifer - a pH of 4.6 is the cut point and the minimum pH goal is 4.1-4.3.

Anything with a pH above 4.6 is considered a low-acid food and so must be pressure canned if used in its natural state. If pickled, then of course the acidity falls well below that level and can be safely BWB thanks to the vinegar. Any thing below 4.6 is considered acid food and can be BWB processed unless it is mixed with low-acid foods.

But it isn't just the pH that determines the safety of a product. Other factors that must be computed into the type and time required for processing include: the consistency/density of the food, the presence of nutrients that are "protective" for bacteria (e.g., high protein and sugar levels), the shape and size of the jar, the size, shape and texture of food pieces, the solid to liquid ratio, the temperature of the food at the beginning of the process, and the temperature inside the canner. [NCHFP - "Heat Processing of Home Canned Foods"]

Tomatoes fall on the line so as a borderline low-acid food that have to have acid added to them when canning to insure safety.

Dave

Just to add, a pH of 7.0 is neutral. Garden soils can have a pH of under 5 and over 8 depending on what is to be grown. Most plants prefer a 6.8 to 7.1. Acid lovers like blueberries do best in a soil pH of about 5 or lower.

I have been reading this post and now I'm getting worried. THis is not a question of acidifying agent, but rather the amount of cooking time in a normal boing water bath.

I just canned my first raw tomatoes and now I have a few questions for this group. For my first batch, I first blanched (1-3 minutes in boiling water) then put raw tomatoes including raw tomato juice to fill to within 1/2 inch of the top into quart jars. I then added 2 Tablespoons bottled lemon juice, and boiled them in the water bath for 45 minutes (at sea level). Later, I learned that I should have boiled them for 85 minutes in the water bath.

Would you consider it risky to consume these tomatoes? I intend to use them in soups which I will boil for at least 15 minutes.

My sister just finished canning her tomatoes just as you did and processed for 45 minutes. She uses them for sauces and soups. She did add the required lemon juice. She has been doing it this way for years and I'm sure she will not be poisoned. I tell her over and over that the time has changed. She pays no attention to me. She knows I follow the book.
I have mentioned many times on this forum that I work the Farmer's Market. Every week someone has a canning question, especially this year with so many folks canning. I always ask how they process their tomatoes and the replies are always the same. The way I've always done it. I tell them things have changed in the past few years and suggest they search NCHFP for the latest changes in canning methods. Some of them haven't canned in awhile and seem surprised but grateful for the information.

enbient - as said above, we can't tell you that yes they are safe. They weren't processed properly so technically, no, they are not safe. You have to decide that for yourself just as the original poster does.

All we can tell you is that yes, they should have been processed for 85 minutes as per the standard instructions for cold/raw packing tomatoes and that no one should attempt home canning without using the proper tested and approved recipe.

If it has been less than 24 hours you can safely reprocess from scratch. If longer than 24 hours, then the same advice given above applies to your situation as well. The OP did not acidify nor process properly. You added the right amount of acid but the processing time was only 1/2 of what it should be.

It is your choice. If less than 48 hours old I might refrigerate a couple of the jars and use them in the next 2 days very well boiled. The rest I probably wouldn't use. JMO

Dave

I would be less worried about a short processing time than about not enough acid. I have eaten apple butter that was open-kettled canned, i.e. no processing at all. I would never make it that way myself because it's not the current safest practice, but I wasn't worried about eating it. If the acid is right, a lot of the potential spoilage is either detectable or not that serious. Apple butter might be worth a few days of barfing but it's not worth 3 weeks of being paralyzed but fully conscious...boring!

And a reminder since it's come up elsewhere recently, acidity is not the only factor important in canning. You can't add oil, and you have to be mindful of ingredients with more natural oil. Processing times are based on the thickness at which a product was made during testing, not on whatever thickness you want. That's why it's so important to stick with tested recipes and discuss any small modifications on here, especially if you're new to canning or new to modern-protocol canning. Not to scare anyone off, just to encourage everyone to stick around the forum while you figure things out.

Melissa

I am looking for advice. I canned tomato sauce yesterday, and I used canned tomatoes rather than fresh. However, I added a variety of bell peppers, onions, garlic and fresh herbs. I somewhat followed the Ball recipe, but I added a bit more pepper. I made 9 quart jars, and 1 pint jar. I added the recommended amount of lemon juice to the jars. 2 questions. 1) I added more than the recommended amount of peppers to the sauce, but I did not add the celery or carrot recommended by the recipe. I used less than the recommended amount of onion. I used 4 sm green peppers, 2 yellow, 2 orange, and 1 red. I used a water bath and boil for 45 minutes. Am I going to kill my friends with this sauce?

2) there were no bubbles in the jars before I did the water bath. I used the plastic knife to cut through the sauce before I put the lids on the jars. After the waterbath, I noticed bubbles in the jars. Is this a problem?

All the jars are sealed, and remember I used canned instead of fresh tomatoes. I am planning on giving the sauce as gifts this year. Please advise! Thanks!

Very common to see bubbles in thick sauces after a processing. There are several recent threads mentiong the use of commercially canned tomatoes in home canned recipes. Being quarts, you should be aware that they were not really tested or approved as being safe to can or re-can.

Am I going to kill my friends with this sauce?

Probably not. ;) But using a tested and approved recipe would be safer. Experimenting with different ingredients,altering measurements and ratios, changing the pH, etc. in canning can be hazardous - unless you have a food science background. ;) It isn't approved or recommended. Neither is re-canning previously canned foods.

Dave