pickled cabbage made without vinegar

Not sure what you mean? AFAIK you can't make pickled cabbage without using vinegar. The vinegar is what makes it "pickled".

You can make fermented cabbage aka sauerkraut using only salt as it forms lactic acid and that is the preservative/protective agent when fermenting.

So just as vinegar prevents c. botulium spores from reproducing and producing toxin in pickled foods, lactic acid prevents it in fermented foods.

This assumes of course that the proper amounts of either vinegar or salt is used in the 2 processes. If not, then yes the risk of toxins developing exists.

The Guide to how fermentation works linked below can probably explain it better than I can.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Guidelines for Fermenting Foods

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things by using the term "pickled". I think of sauerkraut as a pickle (as in fermented pickle) so used the term incorrectly. Vinegar is not part of the recipe with the cabbage in question. Actually, I followed the NCHFP recipe almost exactly (except I only made 15lb and did not boil the brine that I added), used a very good digital scale, sterilized a food safe pail, and carefully measured pickling salt. Should be right on, so...

Trying to clarify, but not sure if I can:
If the proper amount of salt was there and the container it ferments in was open to air (though the cabbage itself is submerged fully below it's brine with a weighted plate, as directed by many recipes), then would botulism spores be able to produce the toxin in that environment? It seems to me that in everything I can find including some data at the FDA, vacuum packed foods and/or canned foods that are improperly processed are where the botulism risk is, and any container open to air is not the correct atmosphere for it to produce toxin.

So to ask my second question about the acidity of kraut a different way:
When you make a pickle or tomato sauce there is a known amount of acid that must be added to the recipe to make it safe. How would you know that the amount of lactic acid in your kraut is enough for it to be safe to bwb can? Is the mere fact that it did turn into kraut proof that the pH is low enough? It just seems like such an unscientific process amidst so much safety data about canning.

This is a new process for me and I'm just trying to understand this more clearly.

It is a good question and one I have pondered on as well. All the sources seem to say 'if you have fermented them properly'. That's a scary caveat if you're a new kraut maker and especially if you're making it from a written source and not under the wing of an experienced fermenter.

The first time I made kraut, I fully expected to eat and drop over dead. LOL. It can be pretty nasty looking when you first start fermenting it, especially if you're not accustomed to scraping off the froth and the aroma it emits before the fermentation really gets cranking.

The truth is, a lot of different organisms proliferate in raw kraut until the lactic acid forms and kills them. And yeah..........you always second guess yourself if your batch is 'processed correctly'. A couple times through the process, however, and my self confidence finally bloomed. But it does seem very 'unscientific' compared the other canning data one reads.

How would you know that the amount of lactic acid in your kraut is enough for it to be safe to bwb can? .

Part of the answer lies in using tested instructions when making it. The ratio of salt to cabbage has been tested and determined in the USDA labs for kraut. Make the kraut using various levels of salt and then see what can be cultured out of it until a level is reached where no harmbful bacteria can be cultured. When it comes to other vegetables it becomes even more important to use tested and approved instructions.

But much of the answer comes from the simple fact that lactic acid is so VERY acidic with a pH of 1.98 and that the acid created during the fermenting process is such a high concentration of lactic acid with minimal dilution since all it contains is the liquid pulled from the cabbage.

Acetic acid (vinegar) by comparison has a pH of 2.88 (ph is exponents of x10). And with vinegar it is further diluted to only 5% acetic acid plus 95% water and then further diluted by the liquids in the vegetables (like cukes) and any other liquids added to the recipe.

Comfort, for me, comes from knowing that there is very few bacteria, if any, that can survive at a pH of 1.98 - including c. botulinum which grows between the pH of 4.8 and 7.

Does that help?

Dave

Dave, thank you for your detailed answer. this cleared up a lot of questions I had about the subject as well. I have another question concerning the safety of fermented food: you mentioned that before the desired level of acidity is reached the Sauerkraut can be full of other pathogens that could harm us. What if c. botulinum is present in the Sauerkraut before fermentation occurs? Since it isn't the botulism bacteria that harms us, but the toxins they produce, wouldn't the toxins be left behind even after the bacteria is gone? Or can the acidity level also eliminate the toxins?

So your question "what if c.bot is in the cabbage to begin with, would the fermentation process destroy both the spores themselves as well as any toxin they might have produced?" Correct?

If so then the answer is a qualified one and dependent on the use of a tested process. The process of fermentation and the acid it creates does not destroy the spores. It only prevents them from replication and toxin production. So prior to the acid development stage they could, in theory, produce some toxins EXCEPT they are also exposed to oxygen, to air and that exposure retards any replication and toxin development. When done properly the air in the fermenting container stalls it long enough for the lactic acid production to take over.

C.Bot are anaerobic spores and require an anaerobic environment to thrive. In other words they require both a low-acid AND a vacuum environment to thrive. The spores exist in the air and soil all around us but pose no threat in that form.

So if one uses a proper brine ratio and ambient temperature (many tend forget the importance of that aspect) to trigger the rapid onset of fermentation then no matter what container one chooses to ferment their kraut in, it is not in a vacuum, air is in there and any threat is very minimal. Failure to use a proper brine ratio and/or extremely low ambient temperature could, theoretically, result in some low degree of toxicity.

On the off-chance that some toxin might develop then either heat processing or boiling before consumption would be needed.

Does that answer your question?

Dave