I agree about the fat content of storebought, not to mention that some of what you are paying for is water weight. I know that few folks are as lucky as we are; we live out in the country and raise our own hog every year. What a difference! Of course, where we have our meat cut, they do the smoking/sugar curing of our hams and bacon for us. I have most of the hog just ground into pork "hamburger" which I substitute for ground beef in a lot of recipes. I'm not quite brave enough to try to make my own cured stuff though!

Cured itsn't too hard to do. I cure pepperoni and salami and both use mostly beef and pork fat (no beef fat however). The brine is usually water, salt and the nitrates #1 or #2. One is for long cring as in air drying and the other is for curing when item is baked at a ver low temp to about 160 degrees. Basically I use both when making the above, and do a short baking, then cool and let them dry in the fridge. I also cure Canadian bacon from a boneless pork loin. At $1.77 a pound, I bought a big whole loin, cut into two large and one smaller length, injected each with water, the nitrates, liquid hickory smoke, and of course salt. This time I also added some maple syrup. I inject to increase the weight by about 20%, and then the meat is placed in long vacuum tight containers with the brine, and a vacuum is pulled. This will pull out any possible air and will replace it with the brine. Its refrigerated for 24 hours and then its bakd very slowly starting at about 140 degrees as the oven temp. Its got a probe thermometer inserted and after 2 hours, I increase the temp to 160, then 180, then 200. After about 4-5 hours its usually reading an internal temp of 160. Its cooled and then refrigertated. I also trim off any excess fat on the outside. I have a 10" blade electric slicer and cut the bacon into about an 1/8 inch thick slices. Several are packed in Food Saver bags and are frozen. I had run out a while back, so the last batch was just made a couple of weeks ago. Next comes cheddar cheese sausages. The cheeddar is a high melting type and is diced. Its mixed with the sauage pork and stuffed ito hog casings. Also make Kielbasa, with LOTS of garlic and Marjorum, and a few other kinds. When I make Pastrami, I can either buy a corned beef brisket, and then just coat it with ground mustard seeds, coriander, and pepper, or use raw beef, like eye of the round, bottom or top of the round. I have a 4 ounce stainless steel injector and its great to force the brine into the beef. In this case, beef is a bit more dense compared to pork, so once its in the vacuum containers, it is refrigerated for 3 days instead. There, I bake even slower, like about 5-6 hours. The end result is fantastic, low fat, and tender due to the long slow baking. If the butcher shop that does your pig does the smoking, then you would have to look at a smoker for yourself. I now see apple wood being very popular as a smoking wood. For beginners, they also offer full kits of spices and the necesary brine mixtures at the following web site, among several others. They also have smoker kits and high ended models too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sausgae Maker

I'm thinking maybe if the powers that be at GW aren't going to make a meat forum, why not take over the almost dead fish and game forum?

I would be happy to have other meat processors to collaborate with and to share recipes (*nitrate free recipes)
I made beautiful bacon from our home raised pig this year and am looking forward to trying ham curing with next year's pig.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fish and Game forum

I can't seem to open the link on the original post.

We are going to make some kielbasa from deer meat and perhaps some pork mixed in. I want to put it in casings.

What casings are the best to use - synthetic or natural and the best supplier for these.

Thanks,

Ladytexan

Odd that the link I provided doesn't seem to work. I just tested it again and it comes up perfectly and shows a photo of a big bowl of ground pork ready to be stuffed. The link for the Sausage Maker is the home page where you would either choose a search for smokers or go to that heading.

Here, I just deal with store bought meats (beef and pork) that I buy on sale. I am also always looking for pork fat and beef suet. The pork fat can be frozen and refrozen. Beef suet (cooked down) is only used for bird food when mixed with hulless bird seeds.

Larger fresh hog casings are best for Kielbasa and fresh sausages like Italian and brats. For breakfast sausages I would use the smaller sheep casings. Both types also offer a dried edible collogen casings in colors. Both types of fresh casings are packed in course salt and are not subject to any spoilage if they remain in it and are also refrigerated. They do have a smell at times, but it doesn't affect taste or indicate spoilage. I have some hog casings about 6 years old and once rinsed in water, inside and out they come back to life quite well. A 'hank' of fresh casings can stuff about 100-175 lbs of meat. The amount or nitrates I use is very tiny, like about 2-3 grams per 10 pounds of meat. Most all hams must use the nitrates as well, to be properly cured. Have you ever seen a gray color ham? Now, corned beef can get away without nitrates, as they do have 'gray cured' corn beef briskets. Not only does it help to prevent any possible unfriendly bacteria, but also helps to give the meats a mild dose of nitrogen which is what makes the meats pink/red and subject to less spoilage.
Synthetic and dried and fiberous casings are usually inedible and are meant for big luncheon meats, as they are quite tough. There is also dried collogen casings that can be used and are edible, or inedible depending on the uses. When I make pepperoni snack sticks, I use a dried collagen casing thats slipped over the stuffing tube and expands to about 20 feet long once filled. Cellulose casings are for hot dogs and are peeled off after they are cooked, and also edible collegen are used, for no peeling. Fiberous are used for stuffing larger cooked meats like salami and require peeling. Protein coated on the inside helps a fibrous inedible casing to be dried without having deep wrinkles.
Its peeled off prior to slicing.
I gave a friend some pepperoni that was stuffed in inedible casings 1.5 inches in diameter, and he remarked that the 'skin was tough'. I told him it was supposed to be peeled off beforehand. What a dummy! The three sausage and cured meat suppliers I use are Butcher-packer, SausageMaker and Alliedkenco. Sausage Maker offers many small 'kits' of doing maybe 25 pounds at a time or less. These kits usually include the seasonings, brine mix, casings and such. Decide on the size of the casings you need and then see who has the best prices. Fresh fog casings are usually the cheapest for the most amount of sausage. Dried edible collagen are a bit more expensive but offer no need to rinse or presoak before stuffing. For Kielbasa size, its usually the larger of hog casings, but not for stuffing beef rounds. Hog middles are big and are a bit more $$ too,as they are usually edible for the bigger cured/cooked meats. I remember paying $8.00 for a hank of sheep casings some years ago. They now sell for about $25. As mentioned a hank can stuff about 100 or more pounds. Sheep casings are a little cheaper by the hank compared to hog casings by the hank. The sausage maker has a small 'home pack' of hog casing shorts. They are shorter pieces and are cheaper. The store bought casings you see in supermarkets are a rip off. They tend to have holes and all sorts of mixed sizes and lengths.

ksrogers,

I'm sure it is just my computer - it just doesn't open for me.

Thank you so very much for all the information. I've copied it to use later.

I have Kielbasa mix that I bought and plan to use. This will be my first venture into something like this. We have made just regular pork sausage and I've made deer sausage - just a little at a time - for patties.

When I was younger, I was at a friend's house when they butchered a hog. The saved their own casings. One of her jobs was to 'turn' and wash the casings. I helped - fun job!!

Again, thank you,

Ladytexan

I was at a plant in Boston years ago where sheep casings arrived in 55 gallon drums from New Zealand. The building was very old and the cement floors were very worn with many ruts. They had big stainless steel tables (shallow sinks) that they washed the sheep casing in everyone wore boots and gloves. The casings they were bundled in tied hanks and packed in course Kosher salt.

Which link are you referring to, the one titled "Sausages and Cured meats" or the one for "Sausage Maker"?

For the Kielbasa mixes, I find that the flavor is very mild, so I add a LOT of fresh minced garlic, as well as a few whole and corsely ground mustard seeds and more marjorum. I will mix the seasoned meat and fry up a small spoonful before its stuffed into casings to check for taste. The meat is stuffed into hog casings. My big 11 pound capacity stuffer had a motor unit added last year. I can now use both hands while its stuffing and my foot presses on a pedal.

Great deal on a meat mixer below as it uses a hand crank, and is easily cleaned. Mine was bought a few years ago on sale when it was just $100.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stainless steel meat mixer

Sounds like you are into this big time. I am just going to use a small, not too small, electric meat grinder my children gave me for Christmas last year. It has a stuffing attachment.

I'll remember about adding to the Kielbasa mix. It was just something I saw at a store in the marked down basket (I'm cheap) and thought I'd try it.

It was the original link in this thread. I will continue to try and maybe it will open at some point in time. I find this computer does this sometimes.

Thanks again,

Sorry to see it doesn't access the link for you. It may be because its finding the info from my cached pages as it could have scrolled off the end limit. At any rate, here is another of the same link (below at bottom), as well as the request for the GW to add and offer a sausage meat curing forum.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/suggest/msg0103035225761.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Sausage making thread again

The Kielbasa can be made in a meat grinder and if done that way, cut the meat into small one inch pieces. Many of these sausage mixes contain a TON of salt, so if its too salty, you would definately have to add more meat and spices to tame it down. The salt or mix would be added to a little cold water so the salt dissolves first. Pour this over the cubed meat and stir well, then refrigerate an hour. Then you would put the stuffing tube on the grinder and run the mixed meat through it. Because its not taste tested yet, only grind a little sample, cook in a small pan (or microwave on a few sheets of paper towels) and taste to see if its to your liking. If not, you can adjust the favor before the meat is actually ground and stuffed into casings. I usually stuff about 2 feet long lengths and tightly coil it up, Both ends are tied in knots. The coil is about 2-4 turns. I cook it in the oven in a Corning Ware casserole with glass cover. There is water added, and is only about the same depth as the sausage. I carefully flip the sausage over after about 45 mintues, and by an hour its usually cooked most all the water out. Its done at 325-350 degrees, so keep an eye on it! Once cooked that way, the hog casings become VERY tender. I like serving it with a nice strong bold mustard like Gray Poupon Dijon, or hotter. One thing about a meat grinder that is also used as the stuffer, they tend to introduce a lot of air into the sausage, so go slowly and try to keep air bubbles from forming, by poking a small pinhole into the casings once they are filled, or message the meat into it fairly firm, but not too much that teh casings burst. The pusher on the meat grinder will be the way the meat is forced into the casings, as the auger that does it part is quite inefficent when it comes to pushing it through. Kielbasa usually requires a larger holed grinder plate, something like 1/2 inch size or slightly smaller. If adding pork fat, grind that up seperate with a small holed plate so it mixes better through the meat which is still one inch chunks at the first stage. I have about 5 different sized grinding plates, 1/16 inch up to 1 inch sizes. My electric grinder was bought through Northern Tool as well, and The Sausage Maker site has several choices of compatile grinder plates. When a really tough piece of beef is ground, it can sometimes jam, and trip a cutoff. My grinder also has a reverse, which will quickly loosen a jam up. Here, I found tyhe additive that will improve moistness for leab cuts of meat, as wlel as act as a binder so the end result after coking isn't like wet sauwdust. Its a phosphate and MUST be totally mixed with water then added to the cubed meat at mixing time. It reacts (after a few hours) to the meat as if it were making it gel a little. Its saved me a lot of aggrevation when I make very lean sausages. I also use a fat replacer, and soy flour. Both add healthy texture as they are cereal and soy based. Too much however, and they can make the sausages swell and split like cheap hot dogs when cooked.

Happy stuffing!

Here are some a useful tips in a link for anyone planning on making sausages, as well as using vacuum sealers, and most additives for the curing brines. They also cover the casings and the different types used, as well as making an emulisified meat for hot dogs, jerky, safety, storage, life of frozen products in sealed vacuum bags, smoking, dry cures, and lots more. Nice piece of info to refer to. At the bottom of the tip page it also lists some good ideas for brining a turkey prior to its being roasted. The brining will help keep the meat juicy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sausage Maker links

Ken started this thread, saying "Just thought I would 'resurrect' the meat and sausage thread. In it, you will also find a link you can post in, to get the GW people to create a new forum for the meats."

I have tried to promote the idea of a charcouterie forum without much success. Recently I did a survey of charcouterie postings on the Harvest and Cooking forums. Sad to say, posts about meat processing were less frequent than I expected. It was difficult to make a case for a charcouterie forum from that data. For now, it looks like meat processing discussions will have to be held here or on the Cooking forum.

Jim

Yes, I too was hoping for more activity. But at least we have a few newbees here who are getting interested in meat curing and sausage making. Lately, the harvest forum has been turned into a recipe forum too, so there is very little we dont cover.

Off topic, found a source for a semi dwarf pluot tree with grafts for 4 types of these really sweet fruits, a Highbred version of a cross of a plum and apricot. They are hardy down to Z6, so I decided to give one a try. The same source also offers several other grafted trees for apples, pears, and many other fruits. Peaceful Valley is the company selling these as 100% organic products.

Darn it! I don't have time to learn to do sausages!

Well I did find a Chorizo sausage recipe from one of your links that I will try as soon as I have time and freezer space, but will just leave it as patties.

I made some a while back but added too much vinegar. It turned out being cooked by the added acid, and came out a bit mealy. I plan to make pepperoni sometime soon and will add some of it even though its made sweet red pepper. A few sites I also mentioned have mixes that have all the flavorings for it and you just add the ground pork and/or beef. Sausages are fairly easy to do, but I use a grinder just for that step, a meat mixer for the meat and spices, and a motorise sauages stuffer for the final stuffing step. Thats not to say it cant be stuffed in a ginder, provided you have the stuffing tubes and casings. Grind or chop fairly course meat,and smaller sized bits of pork fat and then add the spices, and run through the grinder with a 3/16" plate.

"...will just leave it as patties."

That's a perfectly good way to experiment with sausage making. On a small scale you don't need a lot of grinding, mixing and stuffing equipment. You can just chop the ingredients with your chef's knife or cleaver and season the meat with herbs and spices you have on hand.

Another way is to use store bought ground pork or other meat. That makes it really easy.

Jim

We bought a KitchenAid mixer a while back to make bread making easier for DH. I also got the strainer and meat grinding attachments to go with it. The meat grinder has 2 grinding plates with it, though I don't remember what size they are.

Years ago I had a wonderful unit that I think was called an Oster Kitchen Center, which had a meat grinder that we would use to grind our own burger, chicken and pork. I'm hoping the KitchenAids' unit will work similarly and we can make small batches of sausage meat etc. when I have time to experiment. I've gotten so far as to read the instructions and seems like it will. I don't think I will ever have time to stuff casings,though. Sausage is one of our favorite treats.

Crystal

Hello all,

I like the idea of a meat forum but we could hijack the game/fish forum since it is usually not active. Then perhaps we could get GW to change the name to Meat/Game/Fish............

I did home cured buckboard bacon (Hillbilly bacon) last month from a boneless pork butt and it was fantastic!! Also did home cured bacon from pork belly and it turned out great. I do not have a smoker yet so just put the bacon in a 185 degree oven until proper temp. This year I am hoping Santa will bring me a smoker.....

My sausage was OK but I need to try making it again and pay closer attention to the recipe.

Cheers all,
DL

A food processor can be used to chop up the pork. Start with 1 inch chunks and add the spices and salt, Pulse a few seconds, then, take out a spoon full and fry it or nuke it in the microwave for a minute and then cool and taste. If it needs more spice, it can be added easily by just a single short pulse. If its too salty or strong, more meat is needed. Make sure you do include some fat and its chopped/ground seperate, you will have better control when the fat is removed and weighed seperate from the lean trimmed meat. Keep the meat to fat ratio to about 80% meat to 20% fat. Store bought is much higher fat as well as a lot of water is added. Any lower in pork fat will be dry and crumbly. The spices I use: good fresh ground black pepper, sage, and fresh ground coriander, as well as canning salt. I have small presses that make hamburger patties in two thicknesses. They still shrink down smaller after cooking. The sites I posted for supplies also offer seasoning kits for making breakfast sausages. They also include the salt and the option of if you want the nitrites added or not. I usually only put in half what is recommended and thats about a 1/4 teaspoon per 10 pounds of meat. Hardly enough to do much beyond making the meat a bit safer during forming and packing.

I still use my Kitchen Center here almost every week.. The meat grinder attachemnt is here as are the blender, food processor, dough hooks, ice crusher, ice cream maker, food slicer, and oh yea, the mixer. Love it and have a second one still new in the box. I think Oster/Sunbeam made a big mistake when they stopped making them years ago. At that time, only Kitchen Aid was out there as a multi function, but was called Hobart and was only commercial. My bigger meat grinder has a 3 inch plate and and grinds about 10 pounds per minute. I use a small holed plate for the fat, then a slightly larger one for the fat. Breakfast sausage is typically ground using a 1/8 to 3/16 inch holed plate. Italian a 1/4 inch, and Kielbasa in a 3/8 to 1/2 inch plate.

Here is an interesting approach to "sausage". (link below)

I think I need to try this one. Cuban cuisine is considered the best of that region.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Carne Fria

Lucky you with the Kitchen Center AND a spare, Ken!

I never got too much into using food processors for some reason, but I do have a small one that use to blend ingredients for enchilada sauce and such that would work for a small batch. I'll have to look at the spice and cure mixes on that site, Ken. I usually like to make my own seasoning/spice mixes, if i can find recipes or figure out what is in it. Their prices seem to be reasonable though, so I may decide to give them a try in the future when I clear up some freezer space. I'm sure DH would gladly help do some of the work if I produced seasoning for Brats. ;D

Have you used their jerky seasoning? I've not made jerky yet but have always wanted to. I have an Excalibur dehydrator that I'd like to maximize use of. Yogurt is in the future, too, since I do have just a bit of fridge space available some of the time.

Jim, If you do decide to try the Carne Fria recipe, I hope you'll let us know what you think about it.

Crystal

Tried jerky years ago and it was very tough, even though the meat cut was fairly tender. I guess it would be better to use ground meat thats been formed into strips. I don't own a Kitchen Aid, but my Oster Kitchen Center does handle bread dough with supplied dough spirals that turn very slowly compared to the beaters. I have a small Oscar food processor that I use as well, but it can only handle a cup or two at a time. I use a smaller blender type coffee grinder for dealing with the whole spices. One of the sausage making suppliers offers dried beer flavor for brats, as well as high melting temp diced cheddar cheese. The cheese sausages are really tasty and the cheese will not all melt out as its made for high temps. If I were to make Jerky again, it would be something extruded from my sausage stuffer. There is a device that attaches to most stuffers for this. Currently, I have a device that can form hamburger pattes, just by sliding a plastic mold back and forth through a filling area. The end result is about a half pound burger patty, and it can do about 30-40 in about 2 minutes.
Yogurt can be made on a heating pad.

At the risk of repeating myself, I once made jerky following what I was able to learn about the American Indian method. My purpose was to make light weight, dehydrated foods for backpacking.

The original method of making jerky was to separate the meat along the grain into thin strips. In doing this, pieces of gristle were removed. Cutting across the grain leaves gristle in the meat. Meat itself can be tough, but gristle can withstand chewing all day long.

I dried the jerky in an oven with the door ajar and set to the lowest possible temperature. That method would not be advised today, but neither would the method of the American Indians. The edibility of the jerky was good. On backpacking trips the jerky was used in cooked dishes such as beef stroganoff, which made use of dried noodles, another nutritious, light weight food.

Jim

Mine was tough and stringy. After most of the goodness and flavor was digested, the leftover fibers were not something that could be easily chewed. I used a very tender sirloin steak cut into thin strips. I even added some Adolphs meat tenderizer to the marinade that was soy sauce based, but it didn't help much. I guess its probably better to finely grind up the beef and form it into strips. Yes, drying in an oven can take a long time and a lot of excess heat. If the stove you have is elecric, and it has a digital control for the oven, there are way to chnage the offset temp by following the instructions in the manual. Mine can go down to about 170 degrees even though the lowest setting is actually for 200 degrees. The changed offset will tell the oven controller to control the lower temp you manually set. When its actually at 170 degrees, and even though the display says 200, the oven is running at 170 degrees. I have to reset the offset to normal once its done it job. I use that 170 degree setting for slow cooking sausage meats at temps below 200 degrees.

Kielbasa problem! My homemade Kielbasa smells real good in the refrigerator overnight. However, it does not retain that garlic/marjoram/mustard smell and taste after it is cooked.
I've tried pan frying, baking, pan frying with some water.
What ingredients/technique can I use to make the taste of the homemade Kielbasa last during the cooking process so it is tangy & zesty?

When you make them like I originally do, I cook up a tiny portion to taste for the spices, and usually find that it needs much more, so I add them before the meat gets stuffed. The kielbasa recipes and spice mixes are usually very weak in flavor, but have a lot of salt, so I usually avoid the mixes or choose ones that have no added salt, so I can add what I like instead. I add a LOT of garlic, fresh chopped, minced, dried, and granulated. Also, fresh whole, chopped, and dried Marjoram. I also grind up some of the mustard seeds and leave some whole, as well as use a little of the Canadian brown mustard seeds (ground) which have a LOT more flavor. About all I can suggest is that you use the small amount of water in a covered Corning Ware casserole dish, and add some of the same spices and garlic to the cooking/baking water. Also, when serving, I like using a pungent medium hot mustard like a country style Dijon (Gray Poupon brand). If I can't find it, use the regular Dijon, grind up those brown mustard seeds finely, stir in a little salt and white wine vinegar or balsamic, and add that to the Dijon. Let the flavors mellow a day before serving the mustard. Its not overly hot, but helps to give you a good sense of taste for the mild Kielbasa flavors. Next time, add some coursly ground pepper to the meat too. If you have the means, you can thaw a few of the sausages squeeze out the meat, add the extras I mentioned and either make patties, or restuff and cook them. Once thawed, regular ground pork meat should not be refozen, but the fat is OK to refreeze. If yours are not salty, you can also try adding a teaspoon or two of salt to that amall amount of water they are baked/cooked in. Mine get all the water cooked out after about 40 minutes in the oven. After about 20 minutes, I take off the glass cover and flip them over so the top of the sausages are now at the bottom in that small amount of water (water half way up the sausages). Once the water is cooked away, they should be done. The casings are so tender you don't even know they were there before. One more thing I do as add a little liquid hickory smoke flavor. Its just enoigh not to overpower the flavors, but will give a slight wood smoke aftertaste. I use the liquid smoke in pepperoni, Pastrami, and even breakfast sausages.

Ken, thanks for the suggestions. This taste problem has been a real puzzler for me because it is even happening with the Italian sausage I make. (Maybe my taste buds are wearing out).

I do notice that once a year(in winter) when I make sausage to hang and dry, that it retains the taste better.
Now in that sausage I use Morton cure. What's in the Morton that would retain the flavor?

I'm even thinking of resorting to some flavor enhancers like MSG for my fresh Kielbasa. What do you think?

MSG is OK to use, and it can even be used in that cooking/baking water, along with dried garlic and marjoram. Use only a little MSG. The Morton quick cure or tender quick contain pure salt, the canning pickling type, as well as dextrose (sugar), and the nitrites. I prefer to use the individual ingredients seperate from each other. The nitrite is a very tiny amount like about a tespoon per 10 pounds of meat. The dextrose can be more or less, depending on whether you like a browning and to also offer some meat binding. The salt is the primary ingredient and if you found the added Morton was not enough, your also increasing the other two ingredients without knowing it. In sausage mixes they also use a preservative- Erythorbate, a form of ascorbic acid. It helps prevent oxidation and rancidity of fats in dried cured meats. Some of the sausage making suppliers I use are listed in other sausage threads. When using dried spices, be sure they are very fresh and whole leaves, as most that are dried tend to lose a lot of flavor within a few months. My Kielbasa has so much garlc added, that it smells up the whole house when I cook/bake some. When it was all stuffed and placed in a big tray in the fridge, the fridge had a garlic smell for a few days after. I use Food Saver bags to freeze mine in single 20+ inch length wound into flat coils. One more item I use is the phosphate additive. Its used to help hold moisture in fresh seafoods like scallops and even shrimp. You use about a tablespoon per 10 pounds of meat. It needs to be mixed with some water, and takes several minutes of stirring to dissolve. It binds and holds moisture in the sausages. Most all sausages have added water. I don't add much to salami or pepperoni however as they are to be dried and need less water anyway. Check out the link below for some decent info on supplies. Allied Kenco and the Sausage Maker are also good souces for sausage making items.

Here is a link that might be useful: Butcher Packer

mmm -you say that most dried spices lose a lot of flavor within a few months.
That may be one of my Kielbasa problems. My marjoram is at least 3 years old. I'm using it because someone told me that marjoram keeps its flavor almost "forever." I'm thinking of growing my own this summer - what would be a good seed to use?
Hope you don't mind a few more questions. In addition to black pepper, I see white pepper used in some Kielbasa recipes. What does the white pepper do for the Kielbasa?
I also see coriander used? and savory?

Also, I see that the Lithuanian Kielbasa recipes call for onion. Have you ever tried onion in your Kielbasa? I talked to one Polish butcher who told me that onion turns bitter?

I don't use onion in mine. White pepper is only for asthetics, where it will not show up as black specks in the pork meat like black pepper. White pepper is basically black with the skins removed. Yes, 3 year old spices are way too old to use. If it was ground, its probably like fine sawdust in its flavor. The recipes usually mention specific amounts of spices and garlic for the whole meat batch. I much prefer to add at least twice the amounts called for. In some cases up to triple the amounts, especially if it was very old marjoram. Here, I have two year old dill weed and its kept in quart canning jars under vacuum. I opened the jar only a couple of times per year to fill a smaller spice jar. Its smell, taste and color are still very good. Dill weed turns tan color when its old, but mine, even after over 2 years is still bright green. About the only spices that seem to keep flaver are whole clove, allspice, nutmeg, bay leaf, rosemary, and a few others. Savory is peppery, so you could add some of that. Because I use a mix of fresh and dried spices, I usually get a decent taste. I use a small coffee grinder (blender type) that chops up the whole herbs very fast. Suggest that you add a date (Dec 22,2008) to your herbs when you buy them. Store bought herbs in tiny jars are way too expensive to buy, and could be very old. Insead, I like getting larger sized jars from Spices Etc., or Penzys to name a few. From these suppliers, you usually get much fresher herbs. Right now, I have about 3 pounds of whole mustard seeds, and about the same amount of whole coriander seeds. They seem to last longer when they remain whole, and then you do the grinding.

Thanks for the good suggestions. Guess I'll have to buy some fresh spices until I can grow my own this summer.
In January, I think I'll try a batch of Kielbasa with onion, just to see if it provides that "kick" I'm looking for. If you, or anyone else, has other suggestions, please feel free to offer them. I'm flexible and open to new information.

I do use onions, but only in a sausage that has dried sweet red and green peppers, and fresh garlic too. For the added onion, its previously dried chopped. This helps to reduce excess water, and the dried herbs and additives seem to soak up the moisture quite well. Next year, I plan to make some beef and tomato sausages and use onion there, as well as fresh thyme and some pork fat. I have also seen garlic juice, and onion juice in small bottles. These are quite strong and offer flavor without solids. Below is a great source for buying herbs and also onion and sweet peppers. They also offer both ground marjoram and also whole leaf type. A 3 oz. quantity of whole marjoram is a LOT, as its very light weight. I like to save the empty big plastic jars they use to sell the dried spices at Costco and BJ's. These are great for some whole herb storage, provided you keep the paper insert inside the lid. If you want to keep the herbs and spices longer, the use of the Food Saver system, and the attachment for canning jars is a good choice. These attachments pull a vacuum on the jar with a lid that is placed inside the attachment that 'slams shut' once you pull the vacuum hose fitting off the attachment.

I also buy dried soup greens from Bulk and these are great added to chicken soup and also vegetable soups. They have dried spinach, potato, carrot, peas, and several other dried veggies.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bulk Foods

Got this email ad for the plastic temperature indicator devices you see on whole store bought turkeys. This company sells them 25 per temperature, for poultry, beef, and pork. Not bad if your just wanting to know a cooked meat, without the need of a meat thermometer. These are quite accurate, but it also depends if they are inserted near fat or bones, which is not advisable

Here is a link that might be useful: Safe Cook Timers

If I can wrangle off the Pollock his recipe for jerky I will pass it along, it's great a Terryiaki type.
I'm lucky, the neighbor has a backyard butcher shop and smokehouse. He makes the best scrapple, I can eat a whole pan before it sets up, they altered the deer bologna recipe process last year, and is know known as the best around also.
We use apple wood all the time Ken, that and cherry.. I may have the neighbor kid climb up and get a hickory branch for smoking later this month when they slaughter pigs, I want to hang turkey breasts in the smokhouse.
I love smoked turkey.

GOt the following privare email, and thought I should share it:
[This message originated at GardenWeb]

I read your forum and have a couple of questions if you don't mind. First, how much casing should I buy for about 10 lbs of meat? Also, do you have any great recipes for Venison sausage?
Thanks!

My reply:

Stuffing only 10 pounds of meat is quite a small quantity. I didn't mention what kind of sausages you planned to make. If using Venison, that would usually be for a summer sausage, or salami, and pepperoni. These use mostly beef meat and pork fat. The Sausage Maker has several venison sausage making kits. Some include the flavorings, and even the edible collagen, as opposed to fresh casings. If you prefer fresh sausage casings, you would probably do best if you bought a small container from a local supermarket, as many sell s small amounts of hog casings. If it were breakfast sausages, you would use sheep casings. In either case, my suppliers sell these fresh ones packed in salt and are called HANKS. A hank can usually handle up to 100 pounds of meat though. I have both hog and sheep casings here packed in salt and they last forever in the fridge. There are also edible collagen casings that can be used. These come dried and do not need any soaking prior to stuffing. Some of the kits in the link below come with the proper nitrite (Instacure), as well as seasonings and the collagen casings, or for larger sizes, a fibrous non edible casing. A few kits include mixes for up to 5 different sausage types of 5 pounds each. Sorry, I don't have recipes to share, but you can easily find many on the internet. Just be sure to mix up your meat batch well, and cook a tiny spoonful sample, then taste to see if it meets with your approval. Once you have the right amounts of everything its an easy task to stuff. Obviously a meat grinder is a big help with several different hole size grinding plates. Also a sausage stuffer, which works far better than using a meat grinder with a suffer tube attached . Here, I have these devices as well as a stainless steel meat mixer machine, and my stuffer is electric, so its easy to deal with 11 pound batches within a few minutes.

PS: I did make a smoked turkey breast last year, but they have to be done in the warm weather here, as my smoker is the Alton Brown specail made out of two big clay pots butted together. The smoke and temp inside barely gets up to enough to smoke a meat after about 10+ hours, if the weather is warm outside. If its cold, I can't do it. Have no room to set up anything bigger, so I just use liquid hickory smoke, or my gas grill with assorted wood chips.

Here is a link that might be useful: Venison sausage making kits

Inexpenisve sausage stuffer. This one handles about 5 pounds of meat at a time. On clearance from Northern Tool.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sausage stuffer

The customer reviews don't give it a good rating. What do you think?

Jim

Another post that is now public:

I would like to make to a kind of Italian sausage (what else would a Jersey girl make) with the pork and venision -- I don't have a smoker... any suggestions?

My reply:
OK, start with lots of garlic, and you can even add things like rosemary, oregano, thyme, sweet peppers, onion, and even cheese. The onion and peppers I use are dried and don't add more water. The cheese I use is a high melting point cheddar that's cubed, available from one of my sources. All these are also available from the sausage making suppliers. If you like fennel seeds, add that too with a little anise seed. When I do fennel, I grind some in a small coffee grinder and use some whole as well. Also, ground black pepper and coriander are useful as is sage (easy on sage, its hot spicy). I use fresh and dried garlic and any recipe that calls for it I usually double or triple that amount. If the venison is gamey tasting, you can also add a little ground up juniper berries. They take away some gamey taste, but go easy. Italian sausages are usually all pork, no beef, but as mentioned, salami and pepperoni are OK with beef, and pork or venison, as is summer sausages. Things like hot dogs and bologna are pureed meat with cereal or soy added. For a smoky taste, I use liquid smoke. They sell small bottles of Wrights Liquid smoke in some supermarkets near steak sauces, but I usually buy a half gallon bottle from a sausage maker supplier and use maybe 2-3 tablespoons on a 10 pound batch, unless I want a lot of smoky taste. I also make a really good Canadian bacon that uses a whole boneless pork loin. I get a ham or bacon brine cure mixture and inject it into the pork. Then I place the injected pork in a big vacuum tight vessel and fill it with the brine and pull a vacuum on it for 1-2 days. THis last time, I added some maple syrup to give it a special tang. It too gets liquid hickory smoke flavor. Baked slowly at 200 degrees about 6 hours. Cooled, chilled and sliced. Then, I use a Food Saver machine to pack small amounts of it. Store cost about $6+ a pound, my cost under $2.00 a pound!! I have a decent digital scale that also weighs grams. I use Nitrites in all my sausages as they are not completely done in a refrigerated environment like they do commercially. The Nitrite amounts are tiny and that's what gives cold cuts their red color. They are tinted pink and are mixed with salt, so the ratio is easier and more accurate to measure. That's the main reason I don't use Morton Tender Quick, as you have little control if its added too much. I make pastrami out of corned beef, but simply coating them before they are slowly baked. A year ago, I made about 40 pounds of pepperoni and salami each, and the were not only baked very slowly (8 hours at under 200 degrees), but also dry cured for about a month at room temps and refrigerated. I used fibrous casings that are not edible, as I stuff these casings very tightly with the meats. Using edible collagen or fresh casings will burst if I were to use them. So, when I want to slice the salami and pepperoni I peel it first. I gave some to a kid who though it was a bit tough, until I asked him if he has peeled it beforehand.. DUH!! I have a professional meat slicer too as well as some vacuum systems I use to marinate and do a little home canning with. As mentioned, after mixing and before stuffing, cook a tiny sample and taste to see if it suits your taste buds.

Might be why they are marking it down so much. I don't really like that design much as it seems to taper slowly near the stuffer tube. The piston isn't something that can easily change in diameter, so I would expect it has leakage. A way around that is a few layers of plastic wrap in front of the piston and that should help to tighten the space in the cylinder a little. I like vertical ones that are barrels and a crank on the side. My original had no high speed reverse, so I had to crank backwards all they up and out to fill it again. My new one is elecric, but even had two shafts for cranking at normal and fast speed, so you could retract the piston in 3-4 turns. The motor is reversable, so it isn't a problem going backards. I bought my big model from Weston. It was at a time when they just started to phase out some of their bigger ended products. My stuffer and motor cost me almost $250, and my 10 inch pro slicer caost me about $100. Far better prices than anyone else. They don't have these deals anymore... YOu an try calling Weston and see if they have a refurb or discontinues model cheap. Most places sell a decent 5 pound vertical stainless steel stuffer for about $150. Or a 5 pound capacity one here for $100:
http://www.midwesternresearch.com/iw_products.m4p.pvx?;products_no_tree?company=INC?cat=16241

Here is a link that might be useful: BIG stuffers!

This is a great thread. Thanks, Ken.

Link below is to a website that's beyond compare when it comes to recipes for everything under the sun, 341 recipes. Had more than 2 million visitors.

Here is a link that might be useful: Len Poli's Sausage Making

I bookmarked it. Some time ago, there was a web site that listed thousands of recipes for all kinds of sausages. Only problem was most were duplicated or had similar ingredient amounts, so you would see many recipes for the same things. I like to compare them though, just to see who uses what as to spices and the meat selections.

Some time ago we asked the moderators here to give us a meat curing forum, but no one seemed to care. At least here we have a few people who, like me, are either experts or are just starting out. I like to head people in the right direction and also play it safe when it comes to handling fresh meats.

Hi - I was glad to find this thread, as I am new to this and have a question. We were making Summer Sausage, had the ground venision, spices, and quick cure all mixed up and refrigerated for 3 days. Was ready to put it in the oven, and had a family emergency and had to put it all in the freezer, uncooked. Is it still okay to cook this? I have never used the quick cure salt before, and just not sure. Thanks, in advance ~ Judy

Personally, I don't care for quick cure as it also contains salt. Morton makes this and if too much is added to increase salt, it also increases the nitrites that are also in the Tender Quick. Using seperate pickling/curing salt and Prague powder, (nitrite) instead, is much more accurate. The Prague powder (salt petre) comes in two types #1 is for fast cure, like for fresh meat sausages, and #2, for dry curing sausages like salami, pepperoni and even some summer sausages. The Tender Quick has no #2, added, so its slower release of nitrites are not possible. The #1 nitrite can cure the meat once it reaches about 150 degrees during cooking. Freezing the meat after grinding and mixing, and before stuffing is fine. Once thawed, you may also find that its become stiffer and holds its shape like a big clump. Stirring and adding a small amount or ice water can help loosen it prior to stuffing. Must assume that your stuffing into non edible collagen casings?

This business of nitrites, nitrates, sodium, potassium, Prague powder, Tenderquick, pink salt, etc. gets very confusing and it is very important to use the right material in the right amounts for the right purpose to avoid botulism or toxicity. Anyone making cured meat needs to have a clear understanding of curing salts. It's especially important to use the proper conversion when substituting one for another. The link below explains it about as clearly as any sources I've come across so far. I think it helps to read several sources.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Sausage Making

Jimster is right. Most sellers of the nitrites always offer it premixed with salt and an added pink dye. The pink die is used not for coloration, but to easily identify it as something granular and not all salt, even though it may look and have the same texture. Its much easier and more accurate to measure when mixed that way. The necessary nitrite amount is determined by the total weight of the meat. I use both good measuring cups and spoons, as well as an accurate scale that can even weigh grams. Sodium Phosphate is also a good addition, but MUST be dissolved in water first. Its very slow to disslove and can take several minutes of constant stirring. I hav had to use my blender with small cups, to dissolve it entirely. Tenderquick has a LOT more salt in it, and is only suitable for a limited number of sausage recipes. Prague Powder, and nitites are the same thing as Salt Petre. This additive induces nitrogen into meats and helps them stay pink or red when cooked. Thats why cured hams are pink, and pepperoni (made from beef) is bright red. The amounts used in recipes are fairly accurate, but I would never use Morton Tender Quick for a recipe that it isn't called for. Additionally, I would never use pickling/canning/curing salt and nitrites in a recipe that specifies Tender Quick. Many sausage making kits have premeasured amounts of nitrites and salt, as well as the necessary seasonings.

Nice link, as it stated pretty much everything I have written about here. Fear not, following the simple guidelines are esy to accomplish.

As a kid, my older brother got the pure salt petre from a drug store and mixed it with some charcoal and crushed up matches. End result- crude gun powder!