Saturday was my first trip to Heronswood. I wanted to see it before whatever its fate might be. Also saw the Little and Lewis garden for the first time. Enjoyed them both but liked L & L better - so vibrant, with something tantalizing around each corner. Thanks for posting! Susan

Where is the Little and Lewis garden?

Little and Lewis is on Bainbridge Island, on Wing Point Drive.

I went to the Heronswood open. The place was in better shape than I expected. Some neglect was obvious compared to what the plants enjoyed before, but most areas were still reasonably well kept up. I don't know how many unique plant collections have been lost, but most larger plants appeared to be just fine.

I have many more new photos of the open for those who didn't get a chance to go. Some are repeats of Riz' photos as nearly everyone likes some of the same things, but many are different. I have to agree with the other posters in that the gardens looked pretty good. I felt the attention to detail and the great containers were lacking!

Here is a link that might be useful: http://public.fotki.com/BambooMary/my_green_house/botanical_gardens/heronswood_visits/conservancy-open-ju/

Great photos, Mary!

Thanks so much for sharing. I didn't have time to upload all my photos!

Cheers,

R

I was disappointed by the prejudice displayed on your blog. Personally, I am tired of all the slamming going on, and it would have been nice to walk through the gardens and not hear all the snarky comments, especially when the gardens were opened up for all to enjoy. Keep it up and none of us will be able to visit the garden again. If I owned it, I would think twice before letting anyone back in. I think we should all remember the man, that a lot of you love to malign, is a human being too. You want something from him, like come down in price or to continue negotiations? How about trying a new tact, say like a little respect?

I thought the gardens looked great. It was a treat to walk around one more time and I hope to be able to do so again. I think it's time to just get over it and accept the fact that someone else owns the garden and has done so now for seven years.

I am ashamed of the very vocal garden community who partakes in this negativity, some just parroting the media and garden leaders in the region. The prejudices I've read over the last year is dismal. I thought we were better people than what I witnessed.

I hope some will just say positive things about the garden and leave the rest for the negative people who have nothing better to do but complain. I can't be the only one that feels this way? Surely there are many of us tired of the whole affair and disappointed in the garden community leaders who feed the mob in what appears to be nothing more than a tar and feathering. Shameful.

I think I hear what you are saying. The gardens were still great and those of us who have loved and admired Heronswood as an inspiration have acknowledged that by saying so. We also can recognize that the attention to detail that had set Heronswood apart from other nice gardens was just not there. The physical presence of a caring and artistic garden designer can make all the difference between a great garden and a truly memorable garden. I have been to many gardens throughout the world and can say that the ones that REALLY impressed me were the ones that the designers/owners were physically present and had put their heart and soul into it's creation. How could you not care for your own creation? Those of us who have spent years visiting Heronswood notice these subtle changes. Plants for the most part are very resilient and will reward us for years and years in spite of abuse. When I was leaving Heronswood I heard George Ball pontificating to a visitor about all of the rare plants in the garden without naming even ONE, commanding the visitor to go look!
Now isn't that special! Heronswood is still a great garden and I will go view it whenever I am able! It's not the same but I don't blame Dan as he is now capable of so much more and I think the best is yet to come!

I chose not to attend. I prefer to remember the gardens (and the nursery) as it was, with all the many docents (most of whom are friends and acquaintances) present and Dan (and often, Robert) wandering around, chatting with visitors and offering remarks on specific plants or pearls of gardening wisdom. My first visit to Heronswood was in '89, the year after it officially opened and when one could just drop by and shop freely, and I went faithfully to many of the openings after that, my last being the Hellebore Open the spring before it closed.

I too have many friends associated with PNHC and that were present at the opening. Their reports mirror those above - Ball was very much present, rather brusque to the point of being unfriendly, even rude, and unable to explain anything about the garden or its plant inhabitants. They too were surprised to find the gardens in better shape than they expected but to such frequent Heronswood observers, the lack of devoted attention under the guiding hand of Dan, Robert and the Heronistas was very obvious. One close friend stated that the gardens looked "unloved". Pretty sad, really.

I am hoping that the negotiations will resume and that the deal can get finalized and get the property back into the hands of an organization that truly cares about its welfare. All Ball wants is the most he can squeeze from the deal - that's all he has ever wanted - and I don't see that it is necessary for us to be chided to "forget it and move on". What we wish to "move on" to is something better than the situation that exists now. Not once in all his dealings with this situation has Ball conducted himself in manner that would generate respect - no compassion for the staff, passing off the work of decades by Dan and others as Burpee's own and generally blowing off all reasonable attempts to find the best use for the property for the greatest number of people. Why he should be treated with kid gloves by a vast local gardening community he has pretty much abused is a bit of a stretch in my book.

Amen!!

Gardengal, I would like to know what his abuse has been to the garden community? Everything I hear in the news and the voices from the gardening community has been abusive of him. This is what I am trying to understand--a community that has been taking potshots at the man for over a year now, it surprises me to to hear him called the abusive one. It's the equivalent of the pot calling the kettle black.

I too have had a connection with Heronswood for many years and disappointed when the nursery was moved out of our region. I think it is a shame that many employees lost their jobs. But I hear that they all received a severance package, something not all companies would do when down-sizing. I've read that the last five years Heronswood was losing money and was not profitable. I'm not sure what people expect a company to do with a company that keeps losing business? There is nothing to indicate that he bought it to dismantle it, we should all remember that the company stayed the same for six years after he bought it.

The gardens look good, but it seems people need to nit pick at it. All the rumors this last year that Ball had dug up all the plants, or was letting the place go were not true. Do we need to find something else now to complain about?

I also have friends that support or belong to PNHC, I myself have supported the PNHC. Not all feel the need to sandblast Ball. I can't imagine trying to negotiate a business deal with someone while blasting away at them at the same time. I think some need to be reminded who the garden belongs to. Even though we feel strongly about Heronswood, doesn't give us entitlement.

I am one who believes people deserve to be treated with respect as I myself would like to be treated. I would like to see our community act more respectful, regardless if Ball is a gruff man and speaks like he owns the garden, which in reality he does, and for the last seven years. I believe it doesn't matter what he does, this community is only going to show him in a negative light.

I know I am taking an unpopular stand here, but I've watched this go on now for the last year and think it was time to say something.

It didn't exactly "stay the same" for the six years after Burpees bought it. Most noticeable was the decline in the catalog/online offerings, beginning the first season after the sale and finally ending with the glossy, photo-heavy, content-lacking noncatalog of 2006. To a lesser extent, the nursery itself declined in its available species for onsite shoppers. And doesn't it seem especially odd that one of the most successful mail order specialty nurseries in the country immediately started to lose money once the deal was squarely in Burpee's hands? So who exactly was responsible for this mismanagement? While it is only speculation on my part, it still seems rather blatant to me that it was Burpees/Ball's intent all along to relocate the nursery to Pennsylvania and they/he were just biding their time until the move would be consummated. The expressed purpose that it would provide "more suitable" plants to a wider range of gardeners than just those residing in the PNW is, IMO, a crock. Heronswood's mail order customer base was international and very extensive, including gardeners in ALL zones. All they did was dumb down the plant selection to appeal to an assumedly broader but less plant-sophisticated customer base, using the cache of the Heronswood name.

The entire issue of the closing of the nursery was handled badly. Employees were given no notice (Dan and Robert only had a few hours advance notice before the deed was done) and arrived to work to find themselves chained off the property, as were visitors that had nursery appointments. The scheduled open dates and classes were summarily cancelled. Even industry insiders remarked on the heavy-handed tactics of the closure. Would it have been so difficult to announce an intended closing weeks or even months in advance? Most companies that downsize DO inform their employees of an impending closure well in advance so that they can look for alternate employment - many even assist in the employment search. The situation was vastly different from that of a company that was going belly up and closing its doors for good - Burpees was certainly in no danger of that.

And finally I guess I am offended by the credit Ball/Burpees assumes for many of the plants they sell that were discovered/developed by Dan and others associated with Heronswood. There is no proper attribution. It pains me to see the royal "we" being used with current Burpeewood offerings that had nothing to do with that company. Yes, I realize they bought the name and the rights to all the stock when they bought the nursery, but give credit where credit is due.

Last but not least, how can one explain the determination of Ball to hold fast to an exorbitant price for the property, far in excess of what he paid for it (which at the time also included an operating nursery) and well above what similar property goes for in the area, and with virtually no attempt at good faith negotiations, as anything more than simple greed? Or orneriness? Either way, it doesn't speak well of him.

I don't mean to dissuade of you of your opinions - you have every right to them. But perhaps you can better understand how very strong opinions of an opposite view exist and could continue to exist until some significant changes are effected.

Thank you for your comments. I am not sure if I am going to have time today to address your points, but I will try to reply by tomorrow. I have crunch time today with my business.

While I am waiting for more time to address your points and gathering some facts, I hope you will answer my question on how Ball abused the garden community? I would rather have the facts and not speculation in your answer, please.

I rather thought I had made that clear. I'm not sure what else you might be expecting to hear.

And do not feel compelled to respond to any of my statements specifically. This is not a debate but just an expression of opinions. You have yours, I have mine. Neither is any more "right" than the other.

If you are going to accuse someone on a public forum of being abusive to a community, I think you should back it up with fact, not opinion. None of what you wrote shows abuse against the garden community. I didn't feel I was abused when they shut down. Disappointed, yes, shocked, yes, sad, most definitely, I certainly wasn't abused. I want to address your points because you bring them up and I feel they should be answered. I am asking questions from all sides of the issue, because I think most of the problems are just based on emotions and hyperbole and a need to make someone a villain. There's been too much speculating already, wouldn't it be better to investigate and find out the truth?

I think logic and facts should be presented on all sides of the issue, and stirred with some clear headed thinking and a willingness to set aside bias.

Hey....calm down!! There's no need to get carried away with this. It is my personal interpretation of the situation and the way it was handled that prompted the term "abusive" and I find no need to justify that. I do consider the timing and method of the closure, the disregard of what Heronswood as an institution (if you will) meant to the local gardening community, the lack of compassion shown to the employees and the subsequent attitude Ball/Burpees has demonstrated as callous and self-serving and therefore abusive. I don't require anyone else to share this opinion (although I believe more than a few do) and I'm not trying to convince anyone, you included, to change theirs. It is just my opinion. Get it??

I am perfectly calm, and will address your points tomorrow.

You wrote: "It didn't exactly "stay the same" for the six years after Burpees bought it. Most noticeable was the decline in the catalog/online offerings, beginning the first season after the sale. . ."

What you may not realize is the decline in gardening sales everywhere. Attendance at the garden shows were down, there has been a very noticeable decline across the board. Ive been to wholesale nursery meetings and other meetings concerning the industry in both Washington and Oregon, its been talked about a lot, everyone has felt the pinch. Heronswood wasnÂt the only one feeling the pinch. Plus you are forgetting that Dan and Robert were still managing things, so your claim of mismanagement would be putting blame on them also. I am sorry but you say you are speculating and then go on to claim it was rather a "blatant Burpee/Ball intent." You have no idea what his intent is/was unless you are a talented mind reader and there is nothing blatant about what he intended or intends to do. Because you say that something is so, does not make it so.

You complain there was no compassion in the layoff of their employees. I would think if that was so, the company would not give its employees severance pay. From what IÂve been told by employees, even those that worked there for a short period received it. They didnÂt have to give that. Laying off of employees is a hard thing to do. You say that most companies give advance notice and assist with employment search? Do you have facts to back that statement up?

You wrote: "The situation was vastly different from that of a company that was going belly up and closing its doors for good - Burpees was certainly in no danger of thatÂ"

Maybe you donÂt know that Burpee was in trouble financially after buying Heronswood. Were they in danger of going belly up? I canÂt say for certain, but it is well known that they did have financial woes for a few years after buying the nursery and may still be having problems.

You stated: "It pains me to see the royal "we" being used with current Burpeewood offerings that had nothing to do with that company. Yes, I realize they bought the name and the rights to all the stock when they bought the nursery, but give credit where credit is due."

Just when does he get to take credit, he has the expense of operating the business, keeping up the gardens, or propagating the material? ItÂs been seven years since he bought the place, I think he has every right to use the "royal we" since he owns it lock, stock and barrel. I am sorry it pains you that he says it, but it certainly isnÂt abusing you or anyone in the community that he earned the right to say "we" when he bought it.

You speculate: "Last but not least, how can one explain the determination of Ball to hold fast to an exorbitant price for the property, far in excess of what he paid for it (which at the time also included an operating nursery) and well above what similar property goes for in the area, and with virtually no attempt at good faith negotiations, as anything more than simple greed? Or orneriness? Either way, it doesn't speak well of him."

It happens all the time in real estate. People put their property on the market for above what the market will bring. But I would like to know where you get the idea that he made no attempt at good faith negotiations? Perhaps you only read the press release the PNHC sent out in May that stated: "By not receiving a response from Heronswood/Burpee within the time frame contained in that offer, the PNHC board regretfully acknowledged that these negotiations were concluded."

What the press release didnÂt say was what Lee Neff, chair of the conservancy's board, told the Oregonian recently: "After the nonprofit made its third offer, Ball was asked to respond by May 4. In an e-mail, he asked for two more weeks, until May 18. But at its May 5 meeting, the board voted to stick with the original deadline. Negotiations ended."

According to Neff, Ball was still responding and still in negotiations. The original press release from the PNHC is misleading, leading the reader to think Ball did not respond at all. However, in the interview in July, Neff clearly says Ball did respond and asked for an extension.

Now I would appreciate knowing why him holding out for a price he thinks he can get for the property doesnÂt speak well of him? Is it because then the PNHC wonÂt be able to purchase it? How does anyone know what he was going to counter with when he asked for an extension, since the board voted to not give him an extension? He probably wonÂt be able to sell it for what he is asking for; however, he is in his right to sell it to the highest bidder. That he is looking for buyers who want to keep the gardens intact, and will not sell it to someone that wonÂt, is a good indication that he has high regards for the gardens. That he goes to the expense of keeping the gardens up shows that he doesnÂt want them to decline.

I think it would be in the PNHCÂs best interest to treat Ball with respect. If in the near future Ball decides to come down in price, who could blame him if he took someone elseÂs offer over the PNHCÂs considering the way the board and itÂs members treat him. In addition, I think it makes the PNHC look bad every time we in the community hear a negative comment or the name calling coming from someone with a PNHC badge on their chest. I supported this group at first, I wonÂt anymore. I am now skeptical if this group would be the best one to turn the garden over to, since some on the board and some members appear to lack in some basic social skills, important skills needed to run a non profit that deals with the public. I would rather see a group that wants to retain the gardens for a public, non profit purpose, not only be respectful of the gardens but act respectfully in the community. From all the negativity coming out from the PNHC, they sound like they believe they are entitled to the garden and are the only ones that can do right by it.

In addition, if you think that puts Ball in a bad light, then it also should put Dan and Robert in the same light. Why arenÂt you holding them with the same contempt? According to Tony Avent of Plants Delight Nursery, Burpee paid way over what the nursery was worth and that Burpee would never recover their investment from nursery profits. And if they hadnÂt sold it in the first place, then everything would be the same? Most likely not, with the economy and nursery businesses feeling the pinch.

Lest I be wrongly accused again of needing to calm down, this has been composed over the course of a day and in a peaceful and careful manner.

pnw_native_gardener, I see that you've just joined GardenWeb. In your first post, you complain about the complaining. I find no posts by you other than on this thread. Do you plan to contribute something positive to this forum or did you join just to defend Ball/Burpee?

harleylady, I came here looking to have a civil rational discussion about Heronswood and point out what I see happening in the gardening community. Would you care to join in on the discussion? I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts if you care to address the points I brought up.

I hope to have an open discussion, hopefully a courteous one about something I think is a problem in the NW garden community, in which I am a member of. If I have broken a rule here by being on this thread trying to discuss something that is on my mind, then I will apologize and take leave. If I have not broken a rule, I hope that people here will take the time to discuss this with me. Since this topic has been discussed before, I assumed the topic was not taboo.

I've been getting similar comments on my original blog entry from an anonymous user. I wonder if it's the same person.

Seriously, we are just posting our opinions. There are always two sides to a matter like this, but most are favoring one, especially here in the Pacific Northwest.

No one else is really chiming in to support George Ball's side.

Facts are facts, but that doesn't change how we all feel for what has become of Heronswood.

R

The problem is that we DON'T know what happened. We only hear bits and pieces. Speculation is bound to happen. Closing of the gardens and nursery was a shock to many people. It's understandable that there would be disappointment, distrust, sadness and anger over the closing of what many have considered a hallmark, an institution really, in the gardening world, particularly because of the heavy handed way it was handled. We are grieving over what once was. There are not many nurseries that can compare with the rare and interesting plants, tested in our backyard, that Heronswood made available.

I for one would like hear from George Ball and Dan and Robert on their sides of the story. Until that happens, speculation will continue.

And yes, a severance package is considered standard, particularly when a business is being relocated. Training and job hunting assistance is a courtesy that some companies do provide.

Well said, Jeanne.

pnw_native_gardener, what I really find offensive is the royal "we" mentioned by gardengal48. There was an interesting commentary on this by Ketzel Levine on NPR. Does an art collector buy a piece of art and then behave as if he or she created it?

Riz, after viewing your blog, the gardens don't look so bad. I can see that the meticulous attention to detail (I remember thinking "they must clip the boxwood every single day"), it's not there anymore. Still, the gardens are in better shape then I expected. Thanks for sharing your pictures and starting this interesting post.

As for the banter; I think gardeners in general (not just the PNW) are all critics. Just eavesdrop at The Northwest Flower and Garden Show, for every "wow" and "gorgeous" you'll here "yuck, primroses" and "the gardens used to be soooo much more fabulous a few years ago." We can be an egotistical bunch, and I'm not surprised to hear people nitpicking Heronswood and Ball (he's an easy target after all). It's all part of the grieving process. We're in the "anger" stage, I think.

Thank you jeannek for your comments.

You wrote: "The problem is that we DON'T know what happened. We only hear bits and pieces. Speculation is bound to happen. Closing of the gardens and nursery was a shock to many people. It's understandable that there would be disappointment, distrust, sadness and anger over the closing of what many have considered a hallmark, an institution really, in the gardening world, particularly because of the heavy handed way it was handled. We are grieving over what once was. There are not many nurseries that can compare with the rare and interesting plants, tested in our backyard, that Heronswood made available."

Yes, we are all grieving over the loss, I agree totally. What has bothered me of late though is the anger, which is understandable in and of itself, that is turned into dragging another human being through the muck. Further more what I am distressed over is the speculation that has turned into vicious gossip. In addition, its not some other community doing the deed, it is our garden community involved in it and especially many who are doing this are leaders in the garden community. That is why I am here, hoping to keep a dialogue open and explore what is the truth, and what is just lashing out at an easy target as nwnatural pointed out about Ball.

Can you please tell me what you believe the heavy handed way it was done? I would appreciate hearing it.

You wrote: "I for one would like hear from George Ball and Dan and Robert on their sides of the story. Until that happens, speculation will continue."

I think its a great idea; you can probably e-mail any of them and ask.

You wrote: "And yes, a severance package is considered standard, particularly when a business is being relocated. Training and job hunting assistance is a courtesy that some companies do provide."

Thank you for your input on this. It may be considered standard and some companies give it, but not all companies.

I also appreciate the courtesy shown me so far and the willingness to dialogue, as I wasn't sure what the reception would be for me to present my views that are not in line with a lot here on this forum. I sincerely, thank you.

Thank you harleylady for your input. You wrote: ". . .what I really find offensive is the royal "we" mentioned by gardengal48. There was an interesting commentary on this by Ketzel Levine on NPR. Does an art collector buy a piece of art and then behave as if he or she created it?"

Thank you for the link, as I have been trying to find what people are talking about and hadnt been able so far. I listened first, to what Ball had to say on the interview. Then I listened to Ketzel.

Personally, I did not find it offensive and I will explain why. First, there is a vast difference between saying "weve been breeding them for 15 years", which for me says he is talking as a representative of the company. Second, if it was a PR person hired to represent the company and he said we, it would be the same thing. Now, if Ball had said, "Ive been breeding hellebores for 15 years" then I would totally agree with you, it does say he is taking credit for breeding them himself.

Anyone that has sat in a business seminar where a PR person is pitching a product or talking about "their" business, understands this "we" is not a personal "I get all the credit". Its understood the person is talking about "we" as the company where he is employed. I attended a seminar not too long ago, where the man was talking about the operations of a wholesale nursery business. This mans sole job is to do exactly what he was doing, he was the spokesperson for the company. He talked about how "we" propagate a plant, how "we do tissue culture" or how "we" pack plants for shipping. In reality, that man was not one who took the cuttings, worked in the tissue culture lab, worked in the greenhouses, or stood and packaged up flats of plants to go out the door. Same with an owner standing up pitching a business. It is understood he is saying a collective "we" and not taking personal credit for the operation.

If a PR person had done that short interview instead of Ball, would you think the PR person is taking credit for the breeding, or would you think the company has done the breeding? It probably would have been nice if Ball had mentioned the breeders name, but in my opinion, it still doesnt appear that Ball was trying to say he bred them, himself.

You said I was here to be on Balls side. I would like to point out that I am here trying to look at all sides of the issue. I was on the one side and felt the same way as many of you. Although Ive heard a lot from our community that appears to be against Ball and very vocal about it, unfortunately most of what I hear appears to be coming from the emotions. I think what needs to be done is to try to look at the situation with a calmer eye and try to see the whole picture. So what may appear to be that I am taking another side, is in reality my trying to bring a balance so we can look at both sides. This is the community I belong to, and maybe I naively thought we were a nicer community of gardeners. I hope this will end soon, that the most vocal leaders will work towards ending it instead of fanning the flames, further. Especially those that want to turn Heronswood into an educational facility. I wonder what they are teaching right now with their approach so far?

Thank you for listening and perhaps trying to look at the larger picture. Again, I thank all of you for treating me kindly and giving me a chance to speak, even if you dont agree with my view.

If Ball had closed the nursery in a more respectful and less belligerent-seeming manner, with proper notice and a fulfillment of obligations such as already scheduled garden open dates and classes, and with some warning and a last sale from the hoophouses (which would have netted Burpee some money, I'll bet, as people who had held back from buying would have loosened their pocketbooks for a last chance)....If he had not locked the gates with guards and given even Hinkley so little notice, I would feel differently about the whole affair. And Dan Hinkley probably would not have referred to the closure as being like "a death in the family."

When the sale happened, my understanding was that Dan was going to continue on as plant collector and as a strong presence at the nursery. For example, he still gave talks at the garden open days. And a Heronista I knew at the time often said (fondly) that Dan liked a certain plant or had made a certain remark, so I know he was around. Way back during the time of the sale, I worked for someone close to Dan's partner, who (while not being indiscreet) told me that the plan was for Burpee to handle the business side while Dan and his partner, Robert, were still closely aligned with the nursery. The business side had become all consuming and exhausting for them.

Looking back, one might which that instead they had hired a manager instead of selling to Burpee, but it sure looked like a great deal, enabling them to move to a place of their own with more privacy. I know many people would not want to live 24/7 at their place of business, no matter how beautiful.

Lately, according to the PNHC website, Ball has refused to allow an appraisal of the property, and that tied the hands of the PNHC because in order to maintain their non profit status, they would be required by the IRS to show an appraisal. From their website on July 4th: "George Ball, the President of W. Atlee Burpee & Company, may have left the impression that PNHC was unable to obtain the Heronswood site because we were unable to raise his final $2.7 million asking price. We want to assure you that this is not the case. Rather, the IRS has made it clear that, when a non-profit organization purchases a piece of property, an appraisal of the property value must be made by a qualified real estate appraiser; and that the price offered should be tied to the appraised value. At this time, Mr. Ball has not permitted an appraisal of the Heronswood Garden site."

In your defense of Ball, do you have any information about this? Why would he refuse to let the property be appraised when the only way PNHC could buy it is to have it be appraised?

Meanwhile, I did to the Hwood open house, mainly because my SO had never seen it. I felt the lack of a soul in the garden, and felt weepy over the the parking lot where hoophouses used to be. Those were all emotional responses. However, from a practical side, as I am a jobbing gardener with a good eye for detail, the gardens were not as meticulously maintained as before the sale and I too noticed the lack of the wonderful copious containers.

You wrote: "If Ball had closed the nursery in a more respectful and less belligerent-seeming manner, with proper notice and a fulfillment of obligations such as already scheduled garden open dates and classes, and with some warning and a last sale from the hoophouses (which would have netted Burpee some money, I'll bet, as people who had held back from buying would have loosened their pocketbooks for a last chance)....If he had not locked the gates with guards and given even Hinkley so little notice, I would feel differently about the whole affair. And Dan Hinkley probably would not have referred to the closure as being like "a death in the family."

I understanding how you feel about the closing. I wish I could have gone to one last sale, but they chose to do it this way and since I dont know their reasons I can only speculate as to why.

You wrote: "Looking back, one might which that instead they had hired a manager instead of selling to Burpee, but it sure looked like a great deal, enabling them to move to a place of their own with more privacy. I know many people would not want to live 24/7 at their place of business, no matter how beautiful."

They were paid handsomely and more than what it was worth. No seems to be upset about that, yet if Burpee does the same hes "Greedy-Guts" as one media person wrote about him. It was a great deal according to Advent (Those of you on Advents mailing list received this newsletter, as I did, shortly after the closing) .

Advent wrote: "Many of us questioned the motive of the Heronswood purchase, since it was clear that the purchase was not good from a business investment perspective. For the price that Burpee paid for Heronswood, and the expected yearly cash flow, the payback of principle would have neared a human lifetime. There is no banker in the world that would rate this as a good investment for financial return."

He also went on to say: "Could Heronswood be purchased and run as a mail order nursery again? The answer is no... if you actually wanted to make money. Burpee purchased Heronswood for far more than it was worth. After the purchase, Heronswood sales began a gradual decline that continued through this year. This decline in sales made the nursery worth dramatically less than when it was originally purchased by Burpee. During the same time, the value of the nursery land has dramatically increased in value. Today, the land is worth several times what the nursery is worth. You can see why purchasing the existing site and running Heronswood as a nursery again doesn't make financial sense.
What's the lesson here? If you have a favorite nursery, patronize it. Are you one of those sitting there wishing you had sent in your Heronswood order earlier? Lesson learned...if you see a special plant at a mail-order nursery, don't wait because tomorrow may be too late."
.
You wrote: "Lately, according to the PNHC website, Ball has refused to allow an appraisal of the property, and that tied the hands of the PNHC because in order to maintain their non profit status, they would be required by the IRS to show an appraisal. From their website on July 4th: "George Ball, the President of W. Atlee Burpee & Company, may have left the impression that PNHC was unable to obtain the Heronswood site because we were unable to raise his final $2.7 million asking price. We want to assure you that this is not the case. Rather, the IRS has made it clear that, when a non-profit organization purchases a piece of property, an appraisal of the property value must be made by a qualified real estate appraiser; and that the price offered should be tied to the appraised value. At this time, Mr. Ball has not permitted an appraisal of the Heronswood Garden site."

You also wrote: "In your defense of Ball, do you have any information about this? Why would he refuse to let the property be appraised when the only way PNHC could buy it is to have it be appraised? "

First, let me reiterate, I am not here in defense of Ball, I am here trying to look at the whole picture, and since it has been so lopsided to one side it may appear that I am defending him. I will say again I am here because this is the community that I belong to; I am not happy with our actions of late. I think a lot of it stems from too many emotions running high, caused from lack of facts and some false information and a ton of gossip, some of it vicious.

The PNHC can have a good real estate agent or lawyer draw up a contract when they make their offer. A real estate agents job when selling a property is to estimate the value of the property by comparing it with other similar property that sold recently. They can also do the same for a buyer, and let them know an estimated value of any property and then advise its client if the property is worth the asking price or not. From there the buyer makes an offer and can stipulate anything they want. Inspections and appraisals can be stipulated, the contract spelling out that if the property is valued over that amount, then the offer is rescinded. The seller can either accept the offer with its stipulations or reject it. I realize that I can be wrong here, since the IRS may not allow this for a nonprofit entity. I think it would make it hard for a nonprofit to buy anything if it cant make an offer with stipulations. I have a feeling though that the IRS just needs the property to be bought at or below appraised value, and doesnt need a nonprofit entity to have an appraisal done before it makes an offer. If I have time, I may call a real estate office and ask about the laws pertaining to this. As of late, I have trust issues with the PNHC. I lost respect for them when I found out they sent out misleading information. I wont make the mistake again to believe what they write without verification.

I would like to leave you with this from Tonys newsletter, remembering that Heronswood began in 1987:

"What would have happened if Heronswood had not sold to Burpee? No one knows. What I can tell you is that most mail order nurseries have a life expectancy of 10-15 years. I can count on one hand those that have lasted longer than this under the same ownership. I'm talking about when a mail-order nursery is run as a business (a industry standard salary paid to the owner) as opposed to a hobby mail-order nursery. Why is this the case? In reality, it is a combination of factors, from mental stress to fiscal stress. While it may seem hard to believe, it is very difficult for a mail-order nursery to be profitable. Remember, I'm talking about those run as a business with real business overhead. Some of the largest mail-order nurseries in the country are suffering mightily and one came within days of being closed quite recently."

Most of us read Tony Avent's letter regarding the closing of Heronswood. No 'd' in Avent by the way.

I have a copy and will post it in entirety if anyone should still be interested -

I think you may have missed the tone of the letter; Mr Avent was grieving along with the rest of us. "Having closely followed the Heronswood deal from the beginning, I have no question that both parties made the deal with the best of intentions, but as we all know, not all relationships work out. Granted, divorce is usually a better option than the more aggressive spouse killing off the weaker one, but unfortunately, this relationship didn't live up to expectations and the results led to
a very messy ending. "

I'm amazed at the time you have to devote to rebuttal during these long days of good gardening weather. As for me, I have a gazillion (well, almost) plants to plant from nurseries we visited during the H'wood tour day.

In case it's not clear, this is a cover from a 2006 Plant Delights catalog, from Tony Avent's nursery, revealing what appears to be a rather unflattering opinion of Mr. Ball and his actions.

Nwnatural:
Ahh...the beauty of photography. You can take the most flattering sections and capture a composition that make it appear as if the entire garden was kept up as nicely. hehe

I didn't think this thread would get this far! As strongly as I feel about what has happened to Heronswood and George Ball, I think some people just need to get outside, garden a bit, and lighten up about this whole thing now.

There isn't much we can do at this point besides wait and see what develops between Ball and the PNHC.

Cheers,

R

I know all that he said tangly, I received my 2006 catalog from Plants Delight and I am well aware of ALL his points. I think you missed his other points, which is the broader picture.

I will take my leave, I hoped to get some dialog going where people would be willing to look beyond the one side. It appears I failed miserably. I also hoped to hear from at least one person here who is looking at all sides, or thinks it is wrong what some in this community are doing to another human being and would like to see the viciousness stop. It appears that either they are not talking, or I stand alone in this view. It's too depressing to think about anymore and a disappointing conclusion.

I've only lurked on this thread. I lived in Kingston from 1992 until 2005 and purchased so many wonderful plants from Heronswood.
When they closed so suddenly, I felt as if I (and the local gardening community) had been slapped in the face. I have no desire to "see the other side". Anger is part of the grieving process and I grieve for something wonderful that no longer is.

I think a lot of us have looked beyond one side, hoping to find a reason why we should like what happened, and haven't found anything.

In discussing what Ball did and should have done, we should distinguish between what's legal and what's beneficial. In this country we all have a legal right to do all kinds of things that are extremely unpopular. Ball is certainly within his legal rights, no question about that. But to argue that what Ball did with Heronswood (whether through malice as worst, lack of appreciation, or inept management at best) was beneficial to anyone, including himself, is difficult. If he had continued to run it in the same manner that it was before, with more emphasis on passion for plants, continual introduction of new plants, etc.; and less money squandered on PR (radio ads, glossy catalogs, etc.) he could still be raking in the dough from owning a profitable nursery.

Furthermore, not everyone who dislikes Ball's actions stands behind the PNHC. Although I appreciate that they are doing something, I think their efforts are misdirected. I hope I am proven wrong.

Well said, Ian. Just because a company has the "legal right" to do something doesn't make it good for the business, for the community or good for the employees.

However, I am open to hearing the truth. So far, we haven't heard much from Ball or PNHC that contradicts the information already out there.

Does anyone know if it will be open again? I missed it, and I have never been there! - Paul

A larger aspect is that Ball was simply following good business practice which does not follow any rules regarding the greater good of society at large. We live in a world country governed by those rules - this is just a small example of that philosophy. That's the depressing part for me - the bottom line of stockholders being more important than the advancement of culture and or civilisation. Money rules.

It sounds like Mr. Hinkley has a new axe to grind. The following from his lastest post at http://www.danieljhinkley.com/

"I loved every encounter; experiencing at once the inherent geographical and climactic beauty of these areas and the gutsy and passionate devotion to the individual garden at each site, all while setting stories straight about plants and their origins and introductions, about ethics and honesty in the nursery industry and most importantly about good plants that are truly responsible choices for their climates rather than the often short sited money grab unfortunately seen as of late in some- certainly not all- mail order entities.
Dishonesty, mindless hubris and lack of passion or competence in (some) mail-order businesses aside, what really gets under my skin? ...."

"I have been, I still am, a businessman. I know hidden costs and the need for the bottom line and it is never as easy as it might seem to the casual visitor. But too I know abuse and a money grab as well as I know a good plant and when and where it was collected and where credit should be given and how it should be properly described. And there is no difference, in my mind, from unethical nurseries of any size and the unethical hijacking of those who have become dependent on a mode of communication that is essential in making our country work. If it can work any longer amongst such contemptuous greed might be the better question. The best answer, as inconvenient as it may be to us who will be mostly affected, is to Just say a Nancy No and let those that grab come back to beg for our business. "

Well gee, what's this all about? Can we be any more subtle? Who is he referring to??

And.... why are offending hotels mentioned by name, but not nurseries??

What i don't like about gardenweb is that they don't offer a click to website unstead of searching it out myself. www.danieljhinkley.com.

muddydogs, they do -

And Ian, thanks for pointing that out, I haven't visited the website or had a newsletter from there recently. In fact, I was just thinking today I should place an order from Plant Delights while still missing my annual Bainbridge just-for-me Spring shopping day.

He is very cryptic. He could be talking about what happened to his beloved Heronswood. Or with this statement, "...good plants that are truly responsible choices for their climates...", he might be talking about nurseries inflating plant zone levels in order to sell plants in areas that don't have a long term chance of their survival or might become weeds.

He gave a talk this last weekend at Swanson's Nursery, but it was filled up before I found out about it. I would have loved to ask him about the future of his hardy Schefflera.