Thank you don,
All good advice,i sure have enough leaves to get my new bed going,by the way, do i wait for spring to do the ammonia spray,seems like the slugs have fallen in love with my Stained Glass.
Carol

Carol, my beer traps have been full of slugs every morning for the past month. May be these are 'sluggish' slugs that would winterkill anyway, maybe not. Check all damp places. Do the ammonia thing under pots, boards, rocks, etc. I get rid of them NOW whenever and wherever I see them.

Don, another nice list. I wish the weather here was comfortable, maybe next weekend?

Don you know my exception is not personal!

"all to be tilled into a new spot and composted during the fall, winter, and spring."

One organic matter does not become soil easily or as well as on top of the soil. If you till or put organic matter under the soil it decomposes anaerobicly which is not good for the soil. Anaerobic decomposition produces either alcohol or ammonia that are good for the roots.

Hi Butch,
Do you recommend to allow the organic matter (grass clippings, leaves, etc.) to compost on top of the soil? Wouldn't a large amount of organic matter such as a big pile of leaves (especially oak leaves) break down faster if it's shredded and tilled under? By late Spring, it seems like a new flower bed would be ready to plant. Just wondering how it would work without tilling it under? Don

"Hi Butch,
Do you recommend allowing the organic matter (grass clippings, leaves, etc.) to compost on top of the soil?"

Hey Yoself,

BTW, my hosta are doing very well especially H.'Rhino Hide'

This is another one of those natural things.

The natural system is set up to do the job. There are organisms designed to begin the process, chew up the coarse material including fungi that breakdown this organic matter. They start the process then they secrete pre-digested organic matter then die or are eaten and other organisms turn this material into another form including worms. Worms will simply come to the surface at night and eat leaves etc.

Now we move to the next process of more microorganisms eating and being eaten in the process commonly called "soil food-web". Finally all these organisms will break everything down to a form the plant can use. The fungi underground are even different than the ones on the surface, yet the ones on the surface digest even limbs and carry the eaten part into the soil through its hyphae (root like part) where it is consumed by other organisms.

Underground fungi such as Mycorrhizae that are attached to the roots delivering minerals like phosphors directly to the roots. These fungi including endo and ecto fungi cannot access the minerals from the organic matter directly; it must be digested several times by other organisms before the fungi can do its work.

If we bury this coarse undigested material it may lay there for sometime, even years undigested. We just cant get in the way of the natural process of compost from the top down.

Even the compost I produced at the yardwaste compost facility was only barely, very incompletely digested and needed to be put on the surface.

The idea of tilling/plowing evolves out of row cropping seed crops like corn, etc. and dont really apply to a permanent perennial beds. In fact plowing is falling out of favor for row cropping in favor of "no-till" farming.

What about dried horse manure? Can it be applied to the soil and rototilled in? We were planning on doing that this fall to our vegetable garden and maybe to some of the hosta beds as we have access to a lot of it.

Connie

Butch,
"If you till or put organic matter under the soil it decomposes anaerobicly which is not good for the soil. Anaerobic decomposition produces either alcohol or ammonia that are good for the roots"
how is this possible that Anaerobic decomposition is not be good for the soil but it is good for the roots ?
Manfred

I've read all of this because I'm in the process of making some new beds and wondering if I should do the 'lasagna' thing or start tilling. I'm sure what Butch (EO) meant to say regarding anaerobic decomposition is that Anaerobic decomposition produces either alcohol or ammonia that are "NOT" good for the roots" ... izzat right, EO? Cuz that's what I've learned from the 'compost' forum.
Westy

Westy - I made a new bed last fall following the guidelines for a lasagna bed. Not sure if I did everything totally right, but everything I planted in there this year (hostas and impatiens) did well. We will see how they do in year two.

I did not till or dig up the old grass.