So, this is a message board for Lost Good Intentions? :)

Cady,
I love that..so what do you think if this is now a message board for "Lost Good Intentions" does that make me Tinkerbell?

This thread from the past began with the poster asking the best way to prune her spirea bridal wreath. The initial responses were sarcastic suggestions about beating with a board or mowing down with brush cutter. I immediately jumped on board and thread continued with creative shrub humor until
Runktrun
I admit I have on very rare occasions been referred to as one of "those" people that always insist they are right but in this case I am (of course). You might recall from your" Dirr is always correct 101 class" that he recommends beating now and mowing in the spring. Now where did I put that spirea board? Hmm is it over by the roll of burlap that I use to wrap these "junk food" shrubs" when gardening friends come to visit and profess Im protecting a rare species from wind damage. Oh there it is supporting the rotting cold frame that houses the black plastic pot ghetto (hmm some how appropriate) Eeew covered in slugsoh well-smashed slug juice its got to be fertilizer right ahhtwo birds with one stone. Kt

Response from Innocent Newbie victim to thread of Spirea sarcasm
May I ask..why are goldmounds considered " junk food shrubs"? Or will mowing and "beat it with a board" help maintain the small size? The nursery didn't describe it as an errant child.
Runktrun
I am on a sarcastic roll it doesnt dawn on me that the response is from a newbie I am thinking the poster was being sarcastic but truthfully laughing too hard at what I have written to really pay too much attention any way so I respond with
I think of my squat round spirea like a bowl of pop corn in a room full of teenagers that have just gotten high for the first time..rubber legs and arms flopping everywhere and TONS of spillage. I must warn you that just like teens who exhibit uninhibited behavior you can expect to find lots of little babies in the months to come. Kt

Newbies responseI am now catching on that she is serious and from here on the thread spirals to painful death.
OMG, the nursery guy told me they don't produce seeds, that they are sterile! And I was so diligent in researching info about "gold mounds" so me thought! Did I overlook the invasive info? It's not on the plant files unless I overlooked it too?

Now come on this was some great shrub sarcasm that will forever be lost all I want no NEED is for someone anyone to throw me a lol. kt

I must admit, tinkerbell, that I rarely get offended if my pearls of wisdom are ignored or, worse yet, misunderstood on the forums. It is far more common for me, just after I click on "post this message," to have a sharp pang of regret about some flip comment or opinionated, uneducated, self-important or rash statement I've just made. Then I try not to revisit that particular thread until it's wended its way to page 2 or 3, hoping that people have either ignored me or forgotten about whatever rash statement I've made. I may be waiting for a couple of these threads to cool right now, in fact ...

Back when I was spending hours every day on the forums, I finally realized that it's *not* like writing a book, or even an article. It's more like having a very long converstion with a lot of strangers who you can't even see. Whatever you put into it, you get *something* out of it, but not something that accrues - it's fleeting and sometimes it's boisterous, but it doesn't add up to any kind of "body of work." So, I still participate, but I do it knowing it's a pleasant form of wasting time, it's not ... work. My expectations are lower, but I still enjoy it.

I've occasionally seen people flare up when their messages are not read carefully enough by some hapless OP. *That* makes me wonder about these people, some of whom I actually know and like. It's just part of the medium, which is far from perfect but is a good addition to the many other garden-related mediums available.

OK, enough from me - now I have to go look for your spirea thread, it sounds loke a good way to while away some time instead of going outside in the sun and getting the garden cleaned up.

Okay, Ill bite, although Ill probably regret it. A few months ago I put up a post about an experience I had at a local box store where I asked the sales person in the GARDENING SECTION where to find the rooting hormone and was asked "For plants?" While I was very polite in the store, my comment in the post was "Heres yer sign." Several people posted similar kinds of experiences. Then, someone asked what "Heres yer sign" meant. I explained the running gag of Bill Engvall and the meaning of the sign, which is essentially that it is a "Im stupid" sign. Someone on the forum took exception to referring to people as stupid. Now, Ive used the phrase in reference to myself many times, because I say and do lots of dumb things, often at the same time, and I use it in the comic sense, as in someone has just said something dumb, not in the mean-spirited sense that someone is stupid. I was prepared to write a long response explaining what I meant, and that I didnt actually say it to the woman or that I was in any way other than polite with her, that I just used it as joke on the forum. But, I decided to let sleeping dogs lie and moved on.

So, Ill say it here. I never meant to imply anything bad about the person, and I never meant to offend anyone. It was just meant as simple joke that, obviously, backfired on me. Sorry about that.

Now, having gotten that off of my chest, Ill share my favorite Gallagher observation from many years ago. He suggested that all drivers be issued dart guns. Each dart would have the word Stupid" written on it. Every time another driver did some dumb maneuver on the road, turn or change lanes without using a blinker, cut the other driver off, go through a Stop sign, etc., the first driver was entitled to shoot a dart onto the car of the offending driver. When that driver accumulated six darts on their car, the police would pull them over and give them a ticket for being an idiot.

"That aint right, Lord I apologize for that right there and be with the starving pygmies down there in New Guinea there, Amen."

narcnh, who just cant leave well enough alone

narcnh, I remember the Here's yer sign thread well! I don't think I actually posted to that one, but it's time to fess up; I never knew what the phrase meant, and, although it made me curious, I never asked. So, thanks! You really never know when you're going to learn something new around here.

kt - LOL (sorry I'm late!)
:-)
D

dtd,
Some great insight to the rhythm of forum life. Now do first year empty Nester's get a pass for spending too much time at GW?

nhnarc... that was just stupid.

Cloud9,
Wow those words weren't written in vain after all and a lol coming from the "Queen of Sarcasm" ...all is right with the world.
kt

narcnh removes dart from the back of his head.

kt - In the words of Nan, "I always wanted to be Queen of something!" And by the way - that was a LOL not an lol. I DO hope I see you at Logee's - miss you!
Deb

Don't feel bad, narcnh. Gallagher is an acquired taste. One that most of us likely have not cultivated. ;)

My moment of anti-grace was outside this forum, when GardenWeb introduced a forum specifically for "Lucky Bamboo," that bamboo pretender (really a species of the herbaceous houseplant dracaena) that Walmart sells in vases of water and glass marbles. Being a bamboo-lover, I used to frequent the Bamboo forum, where we regulars would suffer constant (and I mean constant) questions from new owners of lucky bamboo about "why is my bamboo's leaves turning yellow and the water getting cloudy...?"

After having dealt with such imposter-bamboo questions for years, imagine my (and my bamboo comrades') joy when the lucky-bamboosters finally got their own forum, along with a link on the Bamboo forum pointing lucky-bamboo owners to the appropriate forum.

So, a few of us decided to have a little fun at the new forum's expense. We figured we earned it, having had to answer Lucky Bamboo questions in the "Real Bamboo" forum for so long. Under the guise of befuddled new lucky bamboo owners, we went to the Lucky Bamboo Forum and asked questions about "why did my new lucky bamboo drown when I cut it and put it in a vase of water?" Of course, real bamboo can't live in water like the ersatz "lucky" bamboo. We got lots of replies from earnest people telling us that what we had wasn't "real Lucky Bamboo," but "real, real-bamboo." We, of course, played dumb and played out the threads until someone got wise, complained to the iVillage Police, and our threads or posts were yanked. Some of us got "friendly reminder" e-mails from the moderators about the inappropriateness of "disruptive" posts.

I quietly slipped away, but I do wish I had saved some of the exchanges before they disappeared. I would like to take this moment to state that I did not, for even an iota of a moment, feel a twinge of guilt for letting my "Evil Twin Persona" have a bit of naughty fun.

cady - I have an evil twin also - cloud_666
;-)

"I have an evil twin also - cloud_666 "

...but as a compensation you also have an angel twins, as well. :-)

DTD et al,

Thanks for you GW insight. I find it interesting to read about the psychology of how other react to this medium. I often use it as a sounding board or a reference source. I greatly appreciate the sharing of garden wisdom imparted to me, so I try to share what I can with others as well.

After returning home last night from a disappointing dinner out bad food, bad service, topped off with being seated next to folks I have been trying to avoid I was tempted to just go to bed and pull the covers over my head. Thankfully I jumped on line first and reading your post was the highlight of my night. I was laughing so hard bodily fluids were escaping from any exit they could find, dh and dd finally insisted I leave the room so they could hear the television. I am particularly thrilled by your lack of remorse. I am however going to keep careful watch of my sarcastic side getting too close to your evil twin persona we could really stir up some trouble and I don't even want to think about what could happen if Cloud9 was involved. kt

Katy,
As it turns out, some "evil friends" saved the best threads and stored them safely. Here is a snippet from one where the question was about keeping beta (Siamese fighting fish) together with lucky bamboo. I blanked out the cyber pen-names of the innocent (but left the names of the not-innocent:

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RE: 99 cent store has lucky bamboo
Posted by cady 6b/Sunset34 MA (My Page) on Tue, Sep 19, 06 at 22:11

But, I think lkz5ia may be on to something. Bamboo roots grow so quickly, it's amazing that the fish don't get skewered like shish kabab! Don't know why they call it "lucky" bamboo if the poor fish keep getting killed by it. There should be federal regulations about forcing a fish to live with such an aggressive-growing plant. It may look pretty for a short time, but it's terribly cruel.

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RE: 99 cent store has lucky bamboo
Posted by hoe_hoe_hoe 6b (My Page) on Tue, Sep 19, 06 at 23:12

The worse thing about putting fish in your lucky bamboo is then you'll be tempted to put it in strong sun for the fishs sake. That may not seem so bad but a couple years ago my grandma accidentally knocked her lucky bamboo out of the window and one piece got caught behind the aircoditioner where she couldn't get it (shes got rickets) and the next year when I went back I couldn't even see her house because of all the spreading bamboo. I feel bad for the poor fish but can you imagine lucky bamboo taking up your hold yard and even coming up through the cracks in your sidewalk when you've got rickets? Lucky bamboo only belongs indoors so do yourself a favor and make sure it doesnt get outside!
I don't think the bamboo is actually screwering the fish, but it might be choking them to death with its big long roots while they sleep. I've tripped on those suckers a time or two outside!
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Posted by [NAME 1]z9 az (My Page) on Wed, Sep 20, 06 at 0:48

Lucky Bamboo is not agressive. It does not have rhizomes. It has small roots. It does not grow in strong sunlight. The plant does not kill the fish. Bettas are not totally dependent on oxygen in the water. I do not have a betta. I enjoy my Lucky Bamboo!
Happy gardening

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Posted by [NAME 2] 7a AL (My Page) on Wed, Sep 20, 06 at 8:41

Ooops! I think that some of you are still thinking that 'Lucky Bamboo' is a real bamboo. It isn't even related to bamboo, but is a type of Dracaena. You know, called 'corn plants' (but not really corn, either, lol).
hoe hoe hoe, cady, lkz....do you understand the difference between a real bamboo bamboo and the (so-called) 'Lucky Bamboo' (Draceana sanderiana)?

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Posted by lkz5ia z5 west iowa (My Page) on Wed, Sep 20, 06 at 13:49

Wait a minute. Lucky bamboo isn't bamboo? Why would they call it that? This is confusing. I thought everyone was talking about running bamboo. My cuzin in georgia says the stuff is all over her backyard. Even so, why would anyone want to plant lucky bamboo in their yard. Why risk it? Better safe than sorry.

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RE: 99 cent store has lucky bamboo clip this post email this post what is this?

Posted by cady 6b/Sunset34 MA (My Page) on Wed, Sep 20, 06 at 15:46

Me too. Thanks for pointing it out, [NAME 2]. That would explain a lot!
My SIL gave me something in a pot called "bambusa" and said it was bamboo. I thought she meant like the bamboo on the vending cart at the mall, which all are in bowls of wet pebbles or vases of water. So I washed the dirt off (I don't like bugs and was afraid that there would be bugs in the dirt) and put it in a vase of warm water, but in a few days the leaves started turning yellow and it died in under a week!

I thought about writing to the Garden Web bamboo forum and asking them why my bamboo-in-water's leaves were turning yellow, but changed my mind. Now we have a lucky bamboo forum here so maybe I'll finally get an answer to my perplexing question.

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Cady! After all this time, I didn't know you had a dark side!! Too funny.

Cady,
Now you have not only made my Saturday night but my entire weekend. I havent been able to stop myself from re-reading your post and each time I do I think it is funnier. To be honest I have noticed "Lucky Bamboo" at mall kiosks but I had no idea there was a GW forumoh no sarcastic side of me wants to start a rant on ridiculous GW forums...must repress for the sake of decorum. I will confess I couldnt resist a visit to afore mentioned forum and almost wet myself just reading titles of threads and knew it would have been dangerous to go any further but I might suggest that perhaps one of your "evil friends" is still having a bit of fun. kt

Oh, the good old days when The AOL Rose and Herb Forums were going at it. Just about when dialup hit 56K and AOL had only had "boards" on for about two years -- we're talking the very late 80's, here -- the Herb Forum went "down." That was frequent. Each Board had a moderator and he emailed each active participant of Herbs and told them they could move their discussions to Roses for awhile. Also in the day, one did not have "threads" but just ongoing posts with different titles. Narc remembers, I'm sure.

Anyway, the snooty Rose people (no offense to anyone here) didn't like a bunch of "hippie reverts" on their forum and made that clear. So, we were sent to the Okra board.

You think lucky bamboo in 2006 caused some laughing? Try an Herb Board descending upon a bunch of Okra growers. We were not kind. We were, in some cases, really mean spirited, but these kind people welcomed us anyway.

Because we just couldn't let well enough alone, we went back to the Rose Board (yes, it usually took three or four days to fix a Board) and started a second War of the Roses!! To this day some of the Herb Board posters talk about it, and the fact that in cyberland we probably set a precedent for being uncommonly bad because we could be anonymous.

Still have mixed feelings, but have also been absolutely snooted out by asking a question or inquiring about a plant. Sometimes I want to SOL (scream out loud) I WAS HERE FIRST! ALL OTHER FORUMS ARE IMPOSTERS!! Herbstock '88 and '89 in Nebraska and Connecticut respectively were the first known web-gardener gatherings that were documented.

So, while the times they are achanging, and Lucky Bamboo is considered gardening, get too many really serious gardeners together in one place and chaos erupts, anyway. LOL

Martie

Chuckling. And what's up with the new Garden Web fourm: Football? Ummm...discussion of best turf grasses?

Confess: haven't visited

Football?! Sheesh. I didn't notice, though I remember noting the "Fish and Game" forum.

My guess as to why -- remember when iVillage (a female-focused company) bought GardenWeb? Within days, all of the ads for garden products were replaced by girly-girl ads. The place just completely went "pink" and you could smell the estrogen surge. Because there are lots of male GardenWeb folks, a great hew and cry went up by members of both sexes. Methinks iVillage is trying to counter the estrogen with a dose of testosterone in the form of these non-garden-related, overtly "masculine" forums.

Katy,
I still laugh when I read my bamboo friends' repartee on those cached posts/threads! Let me know if you would like another snippet. There was one thread where someone (an innocent Lucky Bamboo Forum visitor) asked why their lucky bamboo never flowered. One of the "evil bamboo friends" posted a photo of a vase of lucky bamboo with gorgeous magenta flowers all over it (the owner of the photo had planted an orchid next to the vase of lucky bamboo, and the orchid stalks had woven themsevles through the lucky bamboo stalks, making it look as though the lucky bamboo were in bloom. The evil one then said he couldn't understand why anyone would have difficulty getting their lucky bamboo to flower -- when all it takes is the right balance of water and fertilizer.

As you can guess, that thread vanished before long. lol

"Narc remembers, I'm sure"

Huh? How old do you think I am? Wellllllll, yeah, I kind of remember those days. Back before threads, when BBs viewed in DOS were de rigeur.

Okay, I'll set the Wayback machine to go, well, way back, but just a bit later than DOS BBs and Windows 3.1, just after the Cretaceous. Back when IRC (Internet Relay Chat) was the thing to do. Pre AOL chat rooms and all the instant messaging that clogs up the system these days. Used to frequent a chat room populated by adults where we discussed adult things. Pretty much anything - interesting stuff, boring stuff - you name it. There would be a dozen or more conversations going on at the same time, and anyone could chime in on any one of them at any time. Organized anarchy. The fun part was being able to chat in real time with people, literally, from all over the world. Sometimes stayed up until dawn chatting with people in Australia. But, I was younger then. In those days you could have open chat rooms or locked chat rooms. We kept ours open. Periodically, someone would cruise in and ask if any of the women in the room wanted to have cybersex. It used to amaze all of us how brazen people would be about it. Since my nick has always been some variation of narc (for reasons lost in the mists of time) it was very non-gender. So, I used to jump in immediately with "Me! Me! I want to have cybersex, Big Boy!" Immediately, a private chat window would open and the poor fool would start right up. I would inquire innocently about things like what kind of fruit or vegetable they preferred, if they liked chains or just leather, etc. You get the picture. All along, I would be copying the exchange to the main chat room for everyone to enjoy. Eventually, as the conversation got stranger and stranger, the erstwhile Valentino would do a 'Who Is' on me and realize I was a guy. Theyd say something unkind and disappear. Such was the story of my life, always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

narcnh

No offense my northern friend. I remember the evolution of "Narc" story. I'm dating myself, too, when I tell you that I Beta tested "DEC's" first word processor -- a behomoth that stood 6' tall, was 4' wide, used 11" floppy discs that held about 200 regular-sized pieces of correspondence, and was by all accounts "State of the Art" in 1979. You could merge addresses and text!! Wow!!

But I digress.

Back to the original intent of this thread. I didn't bother looking but the jist of my "crush" post was to GW's Herb Forum. The thread was about overwintering tender lavenders and I inadvertantly misspelled 'angustifolia.' Yes, I've said and typed it for years, but someone picked up on it and instantly questioned my credibility. It didn't stop there, but continued in the form of emails suggesting that I stay away since I "couldn't know much about these wonderful plants and giving advice to others when you don't know what you're talking about is not a contribution but just confusing." Or something to that effect. LOL

I've been growing and trialing herbs for years, including a stint at Caprilands as a teenaged intern before the masses knew what that was. Hmmmmmmmm. ""Experts" who trash others." What good does it do???

As for regular posters dissing other's plant choices or questions out of the box, I have a problem with that. In my world people like that are called Plant Snobs and use their gardening knowledge to make other people feel bad. It takes a lot for someone to venture forth into cyberland, and if "experts" can't treat posters the same way they would to their face, then they're using cyberland the wrong way. To me, that isn't what it's all about. But I digress again.

Everyone have a Great day!!

Martie

"As for regular posters dissing other's plant choices or questions out of the box, I have a problem with that. In my world people like that are called Plant Snobs and use their gardening knowledge to make other people feel bad"

Would impolite posters be 'imposters'?

narcnh

Cady, Its going to be a long cold winter please surprise me with your snippets of bamboo humor when ever your of the mind.

Here is another example of a thought that fell flat. I posted this elsewhere and although the thread was interesting and lively it got off topic early on and the topic was never addressed to my satisfaction. So yes I am trying to beat a dead horse but tell me what you think anyway. kt

I am now beginning to think that perhaps the massively marketed (at least in my neck of the woods) introduction of Endless Summer Hydrangea that I had long awaited was not everything I had hoped for after all. One of its many attributes is that it continues to produce new flowers throughout the fall and what I discovered standing amongst the fallen leaves last October was the bright blue blossoms clashed with the earth tones of fall. I was so proud of myself when I came up with the solution to add another bright colored new introduction (very late Sandra Elizabeth day-lily) until I began to think that certainly just two of these bold summer colors would not be enough to successfully weave through the rust, gold, burgundy, and muted fall tones I would need more new introductions. Suddenly the big picture of trying to replace one seasons palette with another seemed as wrong as a Christmas tree in July. As the nurseries are flooded with new and not always improved introductions I wonder if the colors we associate with different seasons will become a thing of the past? Kt

Interesting point, Katy. My tolerance for clashing colors gets pretty high in Fall, when any color seems worthwhile just to prolong the season. I've got some incredibly garish pink mums with screaming yellow centers, they have pretty much taken over the vegetable garden but I appreciate the color so much in November that I don't have the heart to limit their spread. Although Endless Summer ended back in October, a few unnnamed hydrangeas are still throwing the occasional bloom which looks great with the now red-burgundy foliage. ES leaves are ... tan and boring.

Now I'm looking at the faded flowers of Annabelle hydrangea and trying to convince myself that they're not brown, they're a lovely buff tone. They're REALLY brown, though, and not a very nice brown either, and look pretty bad among the vibrant tones of the foliage of Annabelle and nearby liquidambar and franklinia.

I need a second chance of a different sort. Several times I've posted to the tree and shrub forums about grafted plants failing, and never gotten a really useful reply. As much as I love hamamelis 'Diane' (or is it Jelena? Can't tell them apart except when they're in bloom.) it is constantly sprouting from the base with h. virginiana shoots. Does *anyone* know if there is a cure for this?

I've seen some sprouts on my seedless sweet gum, too, liquidambar rotundiloba, and on a magnolia Merrill, and it's very disturbing. These are varieties that I chose carefully, and it's distressing to think that one day they will be overtaken by their root stock. I've tried rooting cuttings of the tops of these plants, but have not been sucessful so far.

Anyone have advice on what makes a graft fail, and what, if anything, can be done about it?

OK, I'll bite. Though what I know about hamamelis would fit in a thimble.

I know for grafted roses, and have heard for grafted lilacs the trick is to bury the bud union. This discourages the understock from growing leaves, and encourages the scion to grow roots. Some grafts are incompatible by nature, like lilacs grafted onto privet, and there is a known time limit for the scion to grow its own roots before the graft fails.

Martie, having known some of the people on the AOL rose board, both cyberly, and in person, (aarrggghhh) it would almost have been worth paying AOL just to watch that invasion.

Thanks, MG. I may try burying the witch hazel, because otherwise I think the whole thing will surely fail before long.

DTD, I have had a Merrill magnolia for about 25 years and it is now HUGE and always gorgeous. It sends up sprouts every year but I am fairly certain this is not grafted--it's a hybrid. The sprouts are normal and I just clip them off a couple of times a season to keep the trunk looking clean.

Too lazy to go look but I think this is a hybrid between M. stellata and M. kobus. It was predicted to be a small tree but it gets very big. I have seen one 50' tall in Chestnut Hill. Mine is at least 30' and very wide and low-branched. They need a lot of space--mine is too big for the space and I'm chewing my nails over what to do.

Knowing nothing particular about witch hazels I still would like to chime in.
Athough Kay's example with roses and even more so with grafted tree peonies, where scion MUST be (not might be) planted deep, could lead you to believe that deep planting is a remedy against root stock suckers, in reality you are going from one extreme to another.
Do you remember old saying, 'plant TOO low, it will never grow'?
True case with most of the 'regular', own-root woody stuff and most likely will result in a slow death of the low grafted plants due to inability of rootstock quickly adopts to the new planting depth in absence of the newly formed surface feeder roots. It will work only if by pure accident you plant your grafted plant at EXACTLY appropriate depth when root stock will have not enough strenght to produce suckers, but still will be able to support existing top growth untill new sets of own-roots will be established.
Let me tell you the trick old plantsman taught me and while I never before or after heard of such technique from nobody, it works as a charm.
In a spring of 2001 I bought a B&B contorted filibert (Harry Lauder Walking Stick) from a papa-and-mama small nursery.
As you probably know, this plant is one of the worse offenders and could send up a straight shoots for the whole its life, but what did I know then?
At that time no one have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that I know a squat about plants in general and about this one in particular.
Old man told me NOT to remove burlap, but instead use scissors and cut off just lower half of the burlap leaving top half intact. He recommended to check top layer of soil in a two years and if original burlap disintegrates, place two layers of the new one on a root zone and cover it by mulch.
I did exactly as he said and that was a perfect suggestion!
Plant is in a ground for 5 years and I never saw a single sucker from it.
The more I think about the whole story the more it make horticultural sence and Im truly surprised that nowhere in a literature this method had been described.
Honestly, I don't see a reason why would this not work with all other grafts.

george, what a great tip;thanks.

nan, why not call fairweather and talk to them about your diane? i confess, i have both the h lauder(10 yrs old) and the diane(1 yr old) , but have noticed no sprouting.maybe diane is too young to do that; but i will keep an eye on her.

cady- what fun your barbs have been. maybe when its slow over the winter we could start an "evil garden things i have done; don't tell anybody" thread, and i'll tell you about my ventures with muriatic acid and a neighbor's maple saplings.....

best,
mindy

Nan,
Joe who has been thrilled with your mechanic referral for his mid-life crisis car feels for ever in your debt so when I mentioned your quandary he offered to query Steve at Polly Hill. Joe has been busy installing the heat, soil warmers on the beds, irrigation aka thermisters, as well as being a general know it all on the job site of a new Polly Hill greenhouse. I would have just given Steve the link to this thread so he could respond to you directly but I wasn't sure how to explain previous insane-fun. kt