Jo, Did you plant cedars?

I THINK they are emerald arborvitaes. I can't remember. Possibly thuja green giant. :(

What have I done?

Jo

Those look more like a breed of cypress. I'm curious why they die so easily as well, because the ones we have at work drop like flies no matter how much or how little we water them.

Jo, I don't know a lot about plants or trees but they look like some type of ceder.

I love Bald Cypress but I now live where Bald Cypress don't like the soil. I use a piece of 1/2" pipe attached to water hose to drill holes around the drip line to help water soak into the soil. I also make a "U" shaped PVC water-er to lay on the ground under the tree. I attach a "Y" at the end of the hose so I can water two trees at a time.

It your area is dry enough for ceder to start dying you have my sympathy.

Larry

I am not an authority on the subject but have read a little. If they are emerald arborvitaes then I think those are the white cedar family which is not the really bad guy.

The native cedar that is causing so much problem with Oklahoma ranch land is eastern red cedar.

Personally I don't like any cedar tree because they drink tons of water, they are tick magnets, when they catch fire they explode and spread the fire, and my allergies don't tolerate them well. Having said that, I live where they grow naturally and although most of my neighbors have removed them, a few have not.

In addition, cedar apple rust can cause blemished fruit, and I understand it requires two hosts for the fungus to thrive, an apple and a red cedar tree. I would rather have the apple trees.

As I said before, I am not an authority and may be totally wrong, but I did know there has been a huge effort made to elimate eastern red cedar and I think it may be considered invasive here. There was an earlier thread about them.

They are definitely Arborvitae. That's no Cedar or Bald Cypress, it has the unmistakeable flat scalelike leaves and shape. This is really sad and I am at a loss as well. I see them around the city and they are taking it OK. They always do in hot dry summers.

I would suspect someone sprayed them if you've been keeping them watered that religiously. Its not like you just planted them and they are pot bound or just out of the greenhouse or unestablished in the roots. This looks very suspicious to me.

I will tell you one other reason why I am suspicious. I am spraying the mess on the other side of the property line since my neighbor refuses to do anything, even mow his "yard", and there is an Arborvitae I oversprayed and this is EXACTLY how it looks where the spray hit it. It didn't happen right away either. You may have someone who is opposed to what you are doing and took the opportunity while you were gone to intervene. Maybe just plain malice. There's people like that. I guess that would be me too (no, actually I told him in advance I was doing this and he said he didn't care, which is OBVIOUS and I'm not being malicious, just trying to avoid the professional tree trimmer down the road on more volunteer trees)

My sister has a neighbor who did exactly that to some plants she put in on her property. He killed a grapevine and some other stuff. Now she is trying to do a prairie and he turned her into the city. She had to go explain and they are OK with it. This guy makes her life miserable from time to time and your trees remind me of it. this is the kind of thing she runs into occasionally from Mr. Nice Neighbor.

Oops, make that eliminate. Here is one of the articles from the earlier discussion.

This applies to eastern red cedar not white cedar.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eastern Red Cedar

Jo, My dad planted 450 Ponderosa pines from the Wildlife department the spring I turned 14. That summer had record setting 100 degree days, so my brother and I had to dig watering troughs around each tree and fill the trough twice daily. (When convenient, we still accuse Dad of child abuse.) The pines lived many years, until they were destroyed by a fire on New Years Eve.

Hello Jo,

This may seem like a very silly question, but do you by any chance have a male dog? Or has one been visiting your yard? I've seen this happen before with arborvitae, and there can be several causes, but urine will certainly do it.

There are certain plants that can simply be fickle and hard to grow, and some of the evergreens easily fall into that category. When they're happy, it's a cinch to grow them. If they decide they don't want to, then there isn't much you can do for them. Junipers, cypress, blue cedar and so on, can be tricky. One thing I've used, on things like gaping holes in a giant juniper hedge that was pruned so radically that it nearly killed it, is this. Mix up a bottle of Miracle Grow and spray the foliage and stems all down with it. In temps like this it's a bit tricky, and it would have to be late in the evening to avoid burning the plants even further, but it's worth a try. I've brought back some that folks would swear were dead.

Pat

I am 90% sure they are arborvitaes...When I was tree shopping I went specifically looking for arborvitaes or Thuja green giant.

My husband says he sprayed the fence line very carefully and as you can see it is only about 3' away from my line of trees. He used a pump sprayer with a very narrow stream (not a spray), and in general it leaves a swatch of dead grass about 2" wide max. He swears there is no way it traveled three feet. If he did this, he'd better run and hide, because I am going to kill him.

No dogs of any kind in that part of the yard...it is on the hill and behind my garden fence and bordered by our property fence.

My neighbors have a huge juniper that gets cedar apple rust galls every year, so my trees get cedar apple rust unless I spray immunox. I'm not that worried about what I plant there as long as it's evergreen, fast growing, and heat and drought tolerant. Any suitable replacements?

I will forbid Dave from spraying the fence in the future.

Jo

Jo,

Do you know what chemical he sprayed? Some of the newer ones that are being used a lot the last couple of years are formulated in such a way that they travel further than the older herbicides used for years. A lot of people all over the country are reporting herbicide damage on tomato plants....more than I remember seeing in past years and it is believed the forumulation of these weedkillers may be responsible.

I'm not convinced Dave is at fault. It is so hot and dry that it could be heat stress, moisture stress or a combination of the two. I am watering my landscape so much more heavily than usual that it isn't even funny. No matter how much I water, the plants still look hot and dry, so maybe I'm keeping them alive but I can't water enough to make them look good.

The most suitable replacements in terms of drought tolerance would be eastern red cedar but I wouldn't plant one of them unless ordered to do so at gunpoint---and I'm not recommending one in any shape, form, or fashion---just saying they're very good at surviving.

When you say you want an evergreen, do you mean that any evergreen, like broadleaved evergreen shrubs are an option, or are you looking only for some sort of conifer?

The most drought tolerant shrubs we have on our property are dwarf Burford hollies (although there is nothing dwarf about them if you let them attain their natural size and shape) and native possumhaw hollies, but the possumhaws aren't evergreen. I've watered the mature Burfords (they're 8 or 9 years old and well-established) twice this summer, and haven't watered the possumhaws at all.

For anyone who has trees and is wondering how to help them in these conditions, I've linked some tips from the TFS.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: How To Help Trees Survive Drought

Dave used Glyphosphate concentrate (generic) purchased at Atwoods. He swears it only kills what it touches and couldn't have worked its way into the soil and down the hill. I am Googling to try and confirm or disprove that. Does anyone know?

What makes me suspicious is how quickly they died. One day fine and the next day dead or nearly dead. I had some heat and drought stress last year, and parts of the trees turned yeloow, then brown, over a period of weeks. These were green, then dead.

I would like any evergreen that grows at least 6' tall...we need a windbreak there and a barrier between us and the small private road a developer put in on the northern side of our property. I won't even think of planting until fall, obviously. I doubt that a newly planted tree would fare well in these conditions no matter how much I pampered it.

Thanks all for the links and advice. I don't have any Miracle Grow but I can spray them with fish oil, but I have a very strong suspicion they are past saving. ;)

Jo

I think the juniper that Kelleyp's family has is actually an Eastern red cedar after some googling. That sucker gets cedar apple rust galls like crazy.

Having said that, I would not be ADVERSE to planting an Eastern Red Cedar based on the apple rust...I already have to spray immunox, so another tree or two wouldn't change that.

As far as them being invasive, the hill I need trees for is a very narrow strip of land about 6' wide. It is bordered on one side by a drainage ditch and our house, and on the other side by a road. Unless the seeds/seedlings can somehow travel (?) 50 feet or more, I would not fear it spreading. The idea of planting a tough survivor is VERY appealing to me, but if it is going to create any problems then obviously I won't do it.

Jo

Jo, I have no idea if it would work on your arborvitae, but I have certainly brought back big junipers that looked infinitely worse than your trees, and done it with the foliar spray. It's cheap and easy, and it will either work or it won't. If what you're seeing is all on the surface and not down in the main trunk, maybe you have a chance of recovering them.

One other question: is there any chance that your neighbor might have used some noxious product that has traveled through the soil?

As I said earlier, my experience with arborvitae is that they can be crabby and sensitive. When they're happy they are no problem. When they are not happy it can be a nightmare to solve. It's entirely possible that the combination of the high temps and a hot wind has gotten to them and they simply can't cope.

Holly is a wonderful thing, when it isn't one of the huge ones that will get out of bounds. I'd love to put them in here to replace some of our scrub cedars.
If you know that your neighbor has cedar rust, I think I'd be inclined to avoid anything that you know is susceptible to it.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help with the problem.

Pat

If worse comes to worse and you have to replant and you want something evergreen that will grow at least 6 feet I have a recommendation. Robusta Junipers. They grow very fast about six feet+ wide and very tall. The tops of mine were taller than the top of the second story windows in about 4 or 5 years up by the house. I had two and they would put on about 4 feet per year but the problem was, they were up by the house. They are very pretty and have a twisted interesting shape. I had no idea they grew that fast and tall and had to remove them because they were way too big and tall. Mine didn't get bagworms the year that we got them so bad and my low growing junipers were infested. They are very pretty. You will have the 6 feet in a very short time. They would easily top this in three years. I figured out why they were named "Robusta" after the first year. I was torn to have to remove two such gorgeous trees. They really are very pretty and have a nice form.

I'm sorry you are having this happen. They look so nice and even in that one photo. I looked up the Arborvitae and they are very disease and insect resistant. Makes me even more suspicious something was sprayed.

They are definitely Emerald Green Arborvitaes. They are sold everywhere around here, but really only perform well in shaded situations. In full sun, they are slow growing...in shade, they are even more slow growing. I have several that are irrigated adequately with drip irrigation and they are still browning in this heat. A much better suited tree would be Juniperus virginiana 'Taylor'. It has the same narrow columnar form as Emerald Green, but it is much more drought/heat tolerant. You could also search around for a cultivar of Juniperus scopulorum. As long as they get adequate drainage and air circulation, they are bulletproof.

Jo;
I don't know much but my heart goes out to you. To me this would be tragic after three years. I'm so sad for you. If it's any consulation I know I have three, maybe four pecan trees that are dying. I think they are about ten years old or so. Very sad.

bon

bon, pecan trees should be loving the hot, dry weather s long as they have good soil and enough water. What is going on with yours?

I don't think glyphosate is the culprit in the original photos. There is sill green grass between them and the fence. On the other hand, those two look stunted, so I think there is a soil or other problem specific to that small area and is now starting to impact the next one in the line.

A whole lot of native trees that would normally be in fine shape at this time of year are struggling badly. Some may make it, while others will not.

Jo, this is off the subject, but I just found another book in the library system, and it looks like there are a lot of copies of it available. I certainly like the title!

Rain gardening in the South : ecologically designed gardens for drought, deluge & everything in between / Helen Krauss & Anne Spafford.

Pat

Scott;
They're infested with those little bugs that are born into the leaves (little yellow/brown circles) and come out in spring. Not only is it invested with this bug, but the related ones that burrow into the twigs. They were all weakened by that ice storm we had a few years ago. I don't know how long the bugs have been on them but I'm guessing more than one season. I have leaves falling off of all my trees - including the Pecans. One of them has a trunk about 3 foot wide sitting next to the house. I'm hoping it will, at least, make it. I have some saplings that began growing in buckets sitting around. I'm babying them to plant in case I lose these that I have.

FWIW, we are in Enid, and we planted about 10 green giants three years ago. The heat has all but done them in this year. We've watered fervently and have beautiful green grass around the trees we water. We suspect the green giants have literally sunburned to death...but we are continuing to water just in case they come out of it. :(

Another theory of ours is that the brutal cold -30 wind chills this past winter are responsible. We had some plants and shrubs that didn't "seem" damaged until late spring and early summer.

My trees are all now dead, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I am positive that they had adequate moisture, so like Okwriter, I suspect that the sun burned them to death. :(

Based on all of your kind advice, I have narrowed down my replacement options to Juniperus scopulorum, dwarf Burford holly, Robusta Juniper, and Eastern Red Cedar.

What I ultimately decide to get will be decided by a few factors, including mature height, growth rate, heat and drought tolerance, and pricing/availability.

Right now the National Arbor Day foundation has a 6 month membership for $5, and is offering 10 free trees with membership. One of the free tree choices is Eastern Red Cedar, so the bargain lover in me finds this VERY tempting.

However, I am going to do a little more research into the ultimate height of all of my options. I would prefer something that is 6-12' tall when mature. The area is so close to my house that I don't think it would be smart to plant giant trees there.

Thanks for all of the help guys!

Jo

Jo,

Iam sorry about your trees.

Since the mature size of a shrub near a home is very important, I just wanted to mention my experience with Dwarf Burford Holly.

We knew when we chose Dwarf Burford Holly that it is not dwarf in the true sense of the word, but rather that it is just a little smaller than regular Burford Holly. We chose them knowing they would become very large shrubs and spaced them accordingly, but that's also specificall why we choose them---because they get big and we wanted them to help shade the southern side of the house from the sunlight.

Our Dwarf Burford Hollies are about 10 years old, and they average about 12' in height and 5' in width. They've never been pruned and have been allowed to achieve their natural somewhat pyramidal shape. They are beautiful. We planted ours 4' from the house/wraparount porch and they are spaced about 4' to 5' apart. They are wonderfully drought tolerant.

Ours have shown very slight wilt twice, and likely that's because I hadn't watered them at all, and at the time they wilted, we'd only had about 10" or 11" of rain for the whole year and none in the 4 or 5 weeks before they wilted. I watered them deeply twice after that, watering them well with a soaker hose for several hours one day and then I waited a couple of days and did it again. They haven't wilted since. On the days they wilted we had temps of 112 and 111.

I have seen Dwarf Burford Hollies as tall as 18-20', but I am not sure mine will ever get that tall. They are growing as understory shrubs partially underneath Shumard red oaks and now are partially shaded by the trees, although they weren't shaded the first few years until after the trees got taller than the shrubs. (The trees were just little sticks when we planted them, and they're now as tall as our 2-story house.)

I don't know about the other junipers you mentioned, but I wouldn't plant Eastern Red Cedar within 100' of a house. When they burn in a wildfire or brushfire, they literally explod and send a burning, resinous sap flying through the air. That sap can ignite anything it touches, including your house and other plants. Because of their tendency to burn like mad and spread fire as I described, we cut down every Red Cedar on our property that was within 100 yards of our house. It is likely 100' would have been safe enough, but my DH doesn't play around when it comes to firewise landscaping.

Dawn

I would say, it could be your husbands fault, or it could NOT be his fault. 50 50 chance.

Meanwhile, cut a branch off, where it looks dead. Take it to your nearest extension center and let the horticulturist look at it.

Trees can die that fast.

I lost two pine trees fast, within two weeks. They had a fungus, and if I had sprayed them right away, the second one, the one that died a week later, prolly would have survived.

and YES, they are arborvitae.

Moni

PS, Rita, how are you? Haven't see you on a forum in AGES!

Red Spider mites have really hit hard recently. Check for these killers of evergreens.

Jo. we sent in a donation to the Arbor Day thing last year and finally got a few tiny pencil-sized 'trees' as a thank you. None of them survived the summer.

As to the red cedar, I do love them . . . . at home in the west, where they belong. I must agree with Dawn that they burn like a torch. Other attractions are that the limbs can be surprisingly brittle and it's not unusual to see a big specimen lose the entire top during a storm. We had one plant a broken 14" butt (with the top of the tree attached) in the middle of my mother's side yard a few years ago, barely missing the garage. It took forever to get it cut up and the debris hauled away. I must sadly agree that it would be a bad idea to plant any of them in your central plains yard. Admire the photos of them, or I'll even send photos, but select something else to plant. I think I'd opt for the Burford holly if you want a low maintenance, good looking shrub barrier.

Pat

I didn't realize what a fire hazard Eastern Red Cedars posed...Dawn's description of explosions and flying burning sap really scared me...Also, they get WAY too big. Like Pat, I have ordered from Arbor Day in the past, and all of the teeny tiny trees they sent died.

The Robusta Juniper sounds like it would be perfect in terms of size and hardiness. But they are hard to find. I found them at Sooner Plant Farm to the tune of $25 each plus shipping, and I need 15 or so, so that really adds up.

In second place are the Dwarf Burford Hollies, but I am finding mixed reviews re. drought tolerance. Many places say they require frequent watering. Maybe that's only until they are established though...I really like them.

Jo

The arbrvitae in my neighborhood are not doing well. The ones that get full sun look dead. Mine that are on the eastern side of the house are brown on the side that face the sun. The other side of the trees facing the house is still green. I'm thinking the brown is sunburn. I hope they come out of it. I've already lst a lot of my soft touch holly.

This is the summer to remind us to plant NATIVE!

Trees native to OK will struggle but survive. Those we import won't. For example, my pawpaws shed their leaves last week like they did as pups 10 years ago. They'll be back next spring, though, if history is an accurate predictor.

This was the summer that would have killed off a lot of exotic things I planted in year's past but have since taken out because they were exhaustively high maintenance. Good riddance.

Please don't plant eastern red cedar! They are highly invasive and are causing ecological issues for our native grasslands. And yes they WILL spread beyond your planting zone. Sorry to be so crazy about this but i've just seen too many cattle ranchers have to resort to wide scale herbicides to save their grazing land and in the end we all eat or drink all those chemicals :(

Jo, My well-established dwarf Burford hollies have tolerated the drought better than the native possumhaw hollies that were here before we moved here, which surprises me. The possumhaw's have dropped almost all their foliage, and the dwarf Burford haven't dropped any. The possumhaw's have received moisture as much as if not more than the Burfords. Anything you plant, whether native or non-native, will need consistent watering the first three years.

Keep in mind, too, that for most of us, this is the worst drought ever since they started keeping records, or at least in the top 2 or 3 or 4 worst droughts for any given county, and it has occurred in combination with some of the hottest summertime high temps we've had in many areas and often long consecutive strings of them. It has been a wicked combination and hopefully one that will not be repeated again any time soon.

grn grl, I personally never would plant eastern red cedar and spend an inordinate amount of time removing every little seedling that pops up on our property. We are surrounded by so-called ranch land, but in many cases it is mostly fallow farm land that now is used for cattle and in many cases the ranchers are not making any attempt to keep the pastures free of the cedar trees. Everyone talks about the need to get rid of the cedars, but very few people actually try to do it.

We have almost 15 acres and have removed hundreds of cedars, but we'll never get rid of all of them. The ones on the acre farthest from the house are 60-80' tall and grow so closely to one another that you can't cut them down because they wouldn't have any way to fall down---they'd just lean against the trees that surround them.

If a wildfire ever moves across our property, I hope it lingers on that back acre long enough to wipe out that big old grove of old cedar trees. I love trees in general, but not those things!

Dawn

Possumhaw likes moisture, its native habitat is moist sand and river bottoms.

A suggestion for a replacement that would take drought very well with good pest resistance is Houson's Pride Youpon Holly. These get a lot of berries, have a uniform vertical growth habit up to 15 ft by 8 ft wide. I see them at the local Home Depot, where I bought two years ago. Mine grew fairly fast, sucker close to the plant making it thicker each year. I haven't watered them at all this summer except for rain and they look fine and healthy.

Another suggestion is Winterberry Holly, a deciduous type that grows fast. In winter it looses its leaves and is covered in red berries. It suckers a lot in wet soil but has tighter growth in dry soil. We have these planted around our church and they grew very fast and are quite tall. They do quite a bit of suckering, some distance from the plant, but that might be a good thing if you want a thick hedge. These also look very good right now and don't seem to show and signs of stress at all.

Thank you for that suggestion. The Yaupon Holly sounds PERFECT. I need it for a northern windbreak, so the fact that it is evergreen is important. It sounds like an ideal size, drought tolerant, locally available. Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

THANK YOU.

Jo

What ever you plant, don't plant a whole row of it. If it gets something that kills it, the whole row ends up dying.

Plant a combo of at least two different bushes. Maybe even three.

Plant in a row with bush one, bush two, bush three, bush one, bush two, bush three, repeat!

Best way not to loose a privacy screen or wind break.

Moni

I don't think there will be a problem of something like disease or pests killing a whole row of these. Part of the appeal is how pest free they are. Mine took off after a couple of years and got very tall in 3 to 4 years (too tall for me to trim the tops without bending down the branches). Extra water will make them grow faster but once established they are very drought tolerant. They are uniform but not so uniform as to make them all need to look exactly alike and if a part is damaged, unlike for a confer type, it will fill back in quickly.

Mine have never had any problems, except one outgrew its spot and created too much shade for my purposes in a bed.

They are highly recommended in Texas as a drought hardy plant. Also, they are native and that is another plus.

It's beginning to sound as though the Houston's Pride yaupon holly might be just what I need for my trouble spot of clay soil that gets baked in the summer and a soggy mess in the winter. From what I read about it, it can tolerate nearly any soil conditions and doesn't mind the blasting sun of a western exposure. Plus, I'd have the winter interest of the berries.

A few questions: do I need to have both male and female to get the berries?
Is there a nursery near OKC that might have one of them?
When's the best time to transplant? I'd like to work on amending the soil over the winter and be able to plant it next spring.

Pat

Good point Dawn, your responses are always well thought out. I am glad you found a replacement Jo!

WAY late in responding but my sister had two very well established (9 years old) arborvitae and they also perished in the extreme heat this summer despite watering.

I think Dawn hit the nail on the head - we have to remember to plant things that are native and can tolerate our unpredictable weather.

So sorry about your loss. :-(

~Laura

Joe, those are definitely a species/variety of Arborvita. looking at your first set of pics, you may be the victim of a blight. Please consult an arborist, nurseryman or even county agent.

Grn is spot-on about eastern red cedar. It is a pest. One way to help kill them if you can't get in tractors with tree shears, is to collect all the bagworm sacs you can find and pin or tie them to the red cedars. Put at least 6 sacs [cocoons] per tree. This will take about two years, but bagworms are very prolific, spreading and prefer cedar over any other tree species. Arborvitas can be sprayed to kill the tiny cats before significan damage is sustained. As you may know, a defoliated cedar DIES.

I also want to plant a 'screen' of evergreens and decided on "Pride of Houston" yaupon holly. BUT - The ones I've seen at HomeDepot or Lowes or at TLC are pretty pricey (if you need to buy a bunch). I haven't had any luck finding a source for smaller cheaper sizes. Does anyone have suggestions where I can get 'starter' sizes? I planted 4 which cost $40 per bush. That's too expensive for planting an entire fencerow. And yes, I've also put Nellie Stevens holly(also pricey) in that row. There were already some tall eleagnus and euonymous bushes in there. Now I need a bunch of yaupon hollies cheap. (p.s. - not the dwarf yaupons, because they grow too slowly). Anybody have suggestions where I can get cheaper starter size yaupons?

Bad Acres Mama, Check out Sooner Plant Farm. I think they have what you are wanting. I bought my desert willows mail order from them last year and had good results.

I'm going to have to replace most of our arborvitae. I'm still gathering ideas. I may just head to Sanders in the spring and make a choice then based on what is in stock. I'm not a huge fan of holly because I prefer a softer look for my house. We have some soft touch holly that is ok, but we'll have to replace some of those too because of disease or mites. I need year round green because this stuff is up next my house.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sooner Plant Farm

I'll take that brown one off your hands and make it green again in 2 years because the dead one looked like it still has some life left in it i would top it and fix the roots if i had the dead one.

Well, imagine my surprise when I woke up this morning and found this two-year old thread resurrected! Ah, memories....

The whole tree thing wound up being a moot point, because shortly after this post, we started making plans for the new house.

By early February 2012, our lot was bull-dozed and regraded, including the steep little hill these trees stood on. Now we have a gentle slope, and the general space that these trees were on is occupied by the garage and driveway.

While I no longer need a windbreak, this thread is a wealth of information. I hope it's useful to a whole bunch of people who might pull it up in a search. Thanks again everyone for taking the time and weighing in.

Jo