It was very good for me last year. A 8.5-9.0 on taste. A good producer. Was better taste and about the same size as the Cherokee Purple I grew. But I may not of had the true Cherokee Purple. I'm growing both for a comparison this year. It did well here. Jay

Tell you all I know about Indian Stripe?

Since I introduced it, that's a lot, so I'll give you the short version.

To start, compared to Cherokee Purple, of which it's a strain of, or almost the same as, but different in that the fruits are slightly smaller than CP, slightly lighter colored then CP and more fruits to the truss than CP.

A friend of mine from Texas was visiting relatives in Arkansas and found this growing in the garden of an elderly man named Burson. In the area it was known as Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra and I chose the former for its name.

Mr Burson, around 80+ years of age had always grown it and he never had bought tomato seeds in his life. In that area they just grew what others in the area grew.

Donna sent me seeds and I sent some to Craig LeHoullier who was the person who got seeds from John Green of TN and Craig named that one Cherokee Purple. Craig and I have known each other for about 20 years and he's my best tomato buddy.

He agreed that it tasted like Cherokee Purple but did have the differences I mentioned above.

The Cherokee had a presence in this part of Arkansas and still do.

Short version.

And yes, many folks love it, as I do myself.

Anything else you want to know?

Seeds are available at Sandhill Preservation, from seeds I sent Glenn, and also, I think, from Victory Seeds from seeds sent to Mike from Craig.

Carolyn

Bill,

you can also find some pictures at TOMATObase website.

Here is a link that might be useful: Indian Stripe

My Indian Stripe were different than those in Suze Anderson's picture in the link above. I'm not exactly sure how to describe them and I'm not very good with colors -- but I'd say mine were not nearly as red as those depicted, more dusty, pink/rose colored usually with green tops and faint but discernable green stripes.

Terry Light
Oak Hill, Virginia

My Indian Stripe were different than those in Suze Anderson's picture in the link above. I'm not exactly sure how to describe them and I'm not very good with colors -- but I'd say mine were not nearly as red as those depicted, more dusty, pink/rose colored usually with green tops and faint but discernable green stripes.

*****

I agree Terry. While Tania has correctly stated the color, Suze's picture doesn't represent very well what the color is, which is identical to Cherokee Purple, but with more pink and still has the green shoulders that CP has.

Must be a photographic color problem b'c Suze's look quite red to me and that's not what Indian Stripe is all about, color-wise.

Tania, I see you mentioned blunt hearts are possible in cooler weather but that's nothing that I've experienced in my zone 4/5 garden and I guess it's safe to say that I've been growing this variety longer than most others have. Whatever. ( smile)

Carolyn

Carolyn,

A few (smaller) fruits that set at the end of the season (Aug/Sept) looked like flattened blunt heart (with a little 'bump' at the blossom end). Not sure why this happened, and I blamed the enviromental conditions for that. The earlier fruits were all 'normal' :-)

Re Suze's picture - the tomatoes on the picture look darker than red, especially when you enlarge the picture. Perhaps different monitors may show colors differently? I wouldn't think that there are red tomatoes on Suze picture (smile).

Tania

Some of my cherokee purples turned out heart shaped last year...odd, but still delicious

Re Suze's picture - the tomatoes on the picture look darker than red, especially when you enlarge the picture. Perhaps different monitors may show colors differently? I wouldn't think that there are red tomatoes on Suze picture (smile).

*****

Tania, what color for Indian Stripe shows up on your monitor? Just curious.

A few things about Indian Stripe.

I grew 10 plants in 2006. Nine plants gave fruit that was very similar in coloration and green shoulders, etc. to Cherokee Purple, some with distinct green striping, and some without any visible stripes. All the plants exhibited much more controlled growth and far more resistance to heat and bugs, and held up well in shallow soil and a weedy garden. Very hardy tomato.

The 10th plant gave fruit identical to the color shown in Suze's photo linked in the post above. Deep brick red or what might be called maroon ... a kind of brownish purple hue tending toward red ... due to the greenish gel faintly showing thru the deep red flesh. If anything, the maroon fruit tasted sweeter than the pink/purple fruit with green shoulders.

As far as the Native American origins of Indian Stripe, I feel that's totally speculative and based on circumstantial musings. Makes a nice story though, like many other stories that accompany vintage tomatoes.

Bottom line ... Indian Stripe is an excellent variety that grows well in hot, humid, poor conditions (for me), and apparently does very well in a variety of conditions as I've gotten back great reports from folks I sent seeds to in Canada, the East Coast, and California. Wonderful tomato!

Bill

Here's a shot of an Indian Stripe fruit clearly showing stripes. This was typical of most of the fruit.

And here is an Indian Stripe fruit more closely colored like Suze's and showing some green shoulders
but no distict striping. This is the color I refer to as maroon for a tomato ...
clear epidermis but a kind of brownish/brick-red tone.

I cannot wait to post my results of the seeds you sent. Those look very nice!

I happened to be talking with Suze tonight and she said that last summer was cool and misty and that's why her Indian Stripes were more reddish and didn't color up as they should have.

Bill, welcome home from vacation and as for your comment about a native American heritage for Indian Stripe, I've had several links all ready to go re IS and a Cherokee heritage and I'll post them in a few days at the other place where you made a similar comment. I did one heck of a lot of research on IS before I even suggested it might be a version of CP grown in isolation from CP. Actually I know more about the background of IS than we/Craig knows about CP. And one of the most valuable pieces of info was here at GW in the heirloom Forum where several folks of Cherokee descent who lived in Arkansas were telling their stories. This all before you started posting here.

And I was so happy to find it cached and in the same thread Craig is saying how he has very often asked John Green from whom he got the seeds of CP from if he could ask the woman who gave him the seeds where she got them from, and no answer on that.

But as I said, I'll post that info in a few days at the place where you originally doubted the origin of IS and let you see what I know about it and see what conclusions you come to yourself.

Carolyn

I'm wondering if climate has anything to do with it? I got my seeds from Carolyn and they were very good but most closer to the one in Suze's picture and Bill's second. I got one or two with very faint striping but nothing like Bill's first. But all great tasting. Jay

Hi, folks. :-)

A couple of comments about the picture Tania linked to.

I feel what I am growing is true to type, and my seed source was Carolyn. Indian Stripe was in the top three for taste in my Spring '07 garden. I'd also add that it was at least 10 days earlier than CP was for me and also more productive.

Terrific flavor, just outstanding.

I had a ridiculously cool, rainy, and cloudy spring last spring, and so my "darks" last spring were not nearly as dark as they generally tend to be in my climate.

1) I have never gotten green shoulders with CP, or for that matter most other tomatoes. Okay, sometimes for fall crop, but never with spring crop.

2)Had no striping with Indian Stripe, but that seems to vary.

3) For an example of just how much lighter my "darks" were in '07 as compared to '06 ('06 was hot and dry) compare pics. One to look at off the top of my head that I took pics of both years would be Brad's Black Heart. Was smaller and much darker in spring of '06.

I'll just let whomever is interested in making such a comparison copy/paste a link to my photo album (being lazy):

http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/v/memberphotos/suze/

Suze,

It's good you chimed in! I was trying to 'defend' your picture, but was not 100% successful (LOL).

On a serious note -

It is a very good point about fruit color depending on the weather conditions - in my garden I often notice that all tomatoes 'lose' bright colors towards the end of the season, probably because of cold nights and not enough sun.

My Indian Stripe was darker color than what is shown on Suze's picture, with green shoulders.

Tania

Thanks for chiming in Suze re my comment from you on color last night which I posted above.

About the word striping when applied to Indian Stripe/Indian Zebra.

It's subtle and not like the striping one would see with any of the tiger like varieties, Elberta Girl,etc., and if you take a good look at Cherokee Purple next time you grow it you'll see that it too has faint striping most of the time.

So a subtle striping sometimes, but not always, just like with CP.

And I suppose, who could really ever know, that whoever named it Indian Strip/Indian Zebra, was certainly referring to those subtle stripes.

Lastly, the weather certainly can alter fruit color.

I'm still embarrassed but the first time I grew Anna Russian I listed it in the RED section in the SSE Yearbook, LOL That was before I knew better to take a look at the epidermis color by peeling away a bit of it. THere was no question in my mind that Anna Russian was red, not pink, and at the time only Craig had grown it before me and I never asked him the color.

And for many folks it's often very hard to say if a new variety is a dark pink or a red. Same for me until I check the epidermis color.

Carolyn

Carolyn

Okay, here a two pictures of an Indian Stripe picked before fully ripe.

I took these pictures because the striping is more clearly seen at this stage.

While Cherokee Purple has green shoulders, and the green coloring often drifts or extends longitudinally
down into the lower latitudes, in four years of growing Cherokee Purple, I've not yet seen the same distinct "striping"
as in the Indian Stripe. Here are some pictures that I would say are fairly typical of Cherokee Purple ... no striping.

BTW, those last two pics of Cherokee Purple were taken on July 16, 2007 after a few weeks of weather mostly dry and over 90*F daytime temps.

Bill you take the most lovely pictures. I am so looking forward to Indian Stripe this year (stripes or not).

Also hope you had a great vacation.

Thanks to everyone for your great explanations. A good friend sent me the seed and they are 3 inches high, my hard drive went out and forgot who sent me the seeds,, ooo no back-up. Carolyn tks. for introducing this tom, it seems to be a favorite in texas. bill w.

"But as I said, I'll post that info in a few days at the place where you originally doubted the origin of IS and let you see what I know about it and see what conclusions you come to yourself.

Carolyn"

Maybe you could post it here for people that don't want to pay money to read a gardening forum like Dave's

Maybe you could post it here for people that don't want to pay money to read a gardening forum like Dave's

****

I thought about that last night John nad agree with you. I can just cut and paste it to DG where Bill asked the question first. When I said I'd do it there first I'd completely forgotten that it's not a free site.

But right now I'm taking a break from getting my tax stuff together and I admit that my 2008 SSE Yearbook came today and I've just spent more than several hours checking out this and that.

So sometime in the next few days I'll get around to doing the text with all those links which I really don't enjoy doing all in one post.

Carolyn

While we wait for more information about the origins of Indian Stripe and its possible relationship to Cherokee Purple, let me expand on a few of the thoughts I have in that regard.

First of all, the basics I've been able to find regarding Indian Stripes background have been given online and in the Seed Savers Exchange Yearbook as follows:

Seed came to Carolyn Male from Donna Nelson, a Texan, who received it from Clyde Bursons garden in south central Arkansas. No specifics are given as to Mr. Burson's county of residence, and no information is given as to where Mr. Burson came by his seeds; but Carolyn Male represents, in the 2007 Yearbook, Mr. Bursons age as "in his 80s" and that he "has been growing this var., known in the area as Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra, for as long as he can remember "

That seems to be the extent of the "facts" given to date regarding Indian Stripes origin. I have searched Garden Web forums and Googled the Net without finding any additional direct anecdotal evidence indicating that Clyde Burson or any of his neighbors acquired Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra from Native Americans or that the variety originated with or was passed from Native Americans, directly or otherwise, to gardeners in south central Arkansas. Also, I was unable to find the exact date of Ms. Nelsons acquisition of the variety, and the first discussion by Carolyn Male at Garden Web appears indicate her acquisition circa 2003.

Now, with regard to Indian Stripe being a strain of or the same as Cherokee Purple, Carolyn Males description in the SSE Yearbook also surmises the following: Since "the Cherokee are known to have had a presence in this area of AR in the past and Cherokee descendents still live in this general area of AR, this appears to be an interesting example of how a var. might evolve differently when grown for a very long time in an isolated area different from an origin for the same var. grown elsewhere." The qualifier "might evolve" not withstanding, this is an interesting leap to take when second guessing history.

Lets look for a moment at south central Arkansas. U.S. Highway 79 runs right through the region on its way from Memphis to Shreveport, two major centers of commerce linked by a federal highway since probably Mr. Burson's birth. And there is, and has been for decades, reasonable access from any county in south central Arkansas to smaller urban centers of commerce such as Arkadephia; Texarkana; Pine Bluff, AR; and Greenville, MS; so "isolation" at least for the 40 years preceding Carolyns acquisition of Indian Stripe is a bit of a stretch. I lived near Greenville, MS, in the late 50s and early 60s, and took many trips through south central Arkansas with my father when he was involved in economic development of the Mississippi Delta region and the Ozarks region ... and in the late '50s, he was growing Big Boy hybrids in our garden purchased in little old Leland, MS.

The remainder of circumstantial evidence offered for a relationship between Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe is comparisons of the two varieties by Carolyn and Craig LeHoullier. I agree, grown side by side, the two varieties have similarities, but they also enjoy some significant differences as well. Indian Stripe, in my limited growing experience and apparently for others, matures a week or two earlier than Cherokee Purple, when grown side by side. For me, Indian Stripe was the earliest tomato in the 2006 garden, ripening on June 26, beating Early Girl and a full two weeks before my first Cherokee Purple. Indian Stripe also had generally smaller, more consistently sized fruit borne in clusters of 3 or four tomatoes, unlike Cherokee Purple during any of the 4 years Ive grown it. May I point out also that the Russian variety, Arbuznyi shows some striking resemblance to Indian Stripe regarding fruit color and patterns ... but I'm certainly not suggesting that Cosack horsemen acquired the seeds from Western Nation warriors!

Now, while I certainly appreciate Craig LeHollier and Carolyn Males contributions to the heritage tomato scene, and while I admire and respect their diligence in ferreting out the histories of the tomatoes they have introduced to us, I still question the North American native connection of both Indian Stripe and Cherokee Purple to the following extent:

1) If either variety indeed originated with the Cherokee, how long was it grown by that tribe before it came into the hands of the white Americans from whom Carolyn and Craig received seeds?

2) If either variety indeed came via the Cherokee, from where did the Cherokee acquire the seeds?

These two questions haunt me because Ms. Male, Mr. LeHoullier, and other tomato experts have at one time or another ascribed to the fact that prior to Livingstons development of Paragon, "tomatoes were commonly ribbed, hard cored, and generally hollow fruit." [Victorys Livingston Page ] Ribbed, hard cored and generally hollow certainly doesnt describe Cherokee Purple or Indian Stripe! Have the Cherokee been deprived their bragging rights as breeders of a superior tomato predating Livingstons achievements? Remember also that tomatoes were introduced to the North American continent via British colonial gardeners on the East Coast and via Creole gardeners in Louisiana, and were still grown as ornamentals only a few decades before the Trail of Tears.

More likely, if either Indian Stripe or Cherokee Purple came via Cherokee people thence into the hands of white residents of Tennessee and Arkansas, the Cherokee came by the seeds post Livingston and from commercial seed sources, whether directly or indirectly. However, in the absence of conclusive evidence that the varieties, whether individual or the same, originated with the Cherokee, I remain skeptical due to the sketchy nature of the anecdotes associated with both varieties. Nonetheless, both varieties remain among my very favorite tomatoes, and I truly thank Carolyn and Craig for bringing them to the heritage growers.

Bill

Hoosiercherokee, I have heard another story about the origin of indian stripe here in texas, but dont have the details.The only place you could get indian stripe seeds for a couple of years was in corpus christi.A gentleman from that area supposedly had the seeds.Interesting subject anyway. bill w.

BillTex,

Very interesting. When did the gentleman from Corpus Christi begin offering the Indian Stripe seeds?

Bill(IN)

I seem to recall a post on gardenweb a few years ago (you might have made it yourself) saying that the family that grew Indian Stripe originally just called it "Indian Tomatoes." FWIW.

Was this person from TX wearing sandals?

Bill, I'm sorry I haven't had time to post the information I said I'd post. Lots of stuff going on here at home and my brother's surgery on Tuesday and on and on. But with help from Freda I did find those darn discharge papers of my greatgranfather's from the Civil War that my borther has been yelling about for a couple of years now.

I never heard the words Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra until Donna gave me the seeds . Since she's from TX is it possible she's also been distributing them there? Possible, but I doubt it knowing Donna.

And tomorrow I have to get together a huge list of varieties for Reinhard Kraft to look at and I might as well tell you I got kinda roped into helping with a chapter of germplasm resources for OP's for an academic bok being written.

There are deadlines. So right now I have a lot on my plate, so to speak, and doing that post about Indian Stripe is not that high on my list altho I will try over the weekend.

But some of your questions I already answered in my post above. And also in the blurb in the SSE write up.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Carolyn

hoosiercherokee I believe it was 2 years ago but not sure,also this guy was raving about another tomato he called jd's something or other, i have seen that tomato on a forum and you can now buy the seeds called jd's c-tex, the guy that introduced was from conroe tx. bill w.

hoosiercherokee I believe it was 2 years ago but not sure,also this guy was raving about another tomato he called jd's something or other, i have seen that tomato on a forum and you can now buy the seeds called jd's c-tex, the guy that introduced was from conroe tx. bill w.

****

There is another variety named Indian ( you mentioned that above) listed in the SSE YEarbook, but it's not Indian Stripe.

The variety you're thinking of is JD's Special C-Tex and lots of folks I know are growing it, including myself this summer. It's a cross between Brandywine and an unknown black and the selection at this point is pretty well genetically stabilized. And yes, introduced by JD from Conroe, TX.

I haven't checked seed companies lately so just for my info you said seeds were being sold. Where would that be?

Carolyn

I haven't found the source for the seeds yet, but you can order the plant from selectplants.com. bill w

Correction to my last post: it should be www.selectedplants.com , sorry bout that.bill w

Finally found it !!!!! Indian stripe seeds can be ordered from www.seeds.by.size,co.uk hopes this helps. bill w.

HI billtex unable to pull up www.seeds.by.size.co.uk
is this correct or did I miss something? Bill

I bought Indian Stripe seeds at Victory. I'm growing them right now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Victory Seeds Indian Stripe

HI billtex unable to pull up www.seeds.by.size.co.uk
is this correct or did I miss something? Bill

***

I couldn't get it to load either so went thru Google and Indian Stripe was not listed there.

Bill sent me a message from here saying that the UK site was not right and named an SSE member who had them.

I replied that there were quite a few folks, myself included, who list Indian Stripe in the SSE Yearbook, but none of those names should be posted online. The seeds listed in the Yearbook are for SSE members only.

And Doof, why do I always seem to forget that Mike lists Indian Stripe, his seeds from Craig, from my seeds to Craig.

And there's no reason why Glenn at Sandhill shouldn't have Indian Stripe back in production next year.

Carolyn

...
So right now I have a lot on my plate, so to speak, and doing that post about Indian Stripe is not that high on my list altho I will try over the weekend.

Carolyn

++++++++++++++

Patiently waiting for the update...

Patiently waiting for the update...

*****

Thanks for your patience.

Carolyn

br33, try www.seeds-by-size.co.uk bill

br33, try www.seeds-by-size.co.uk bill

*****

Bill, in a post above it was mentioned that Victory Seeds here in the US sells seed for Indian Stripe, so I can't see why it would be necessary to go to England for them, especially since the prices there are so high.( smile)

Carolyn

just some info that applies to the overall thread:

-early research papers prior to the 1940's describe the color of such tomatoes as "dirty purple" or "maroon".

-the stripe as seen in these also shows up in CP under certain environmental conditons. I have seen it show up more in the lines segregating from crosses with CP. Early segregates of both 'Dora' and the parent line used to make 'Purple Haze' did this. 'Bear Creek' has also shown some tendency to produce this kind of striping but usually it fades when fully ripened. The striping effect is the result of the cholorphyll being retained in and around the vascular bundles of the outer pericarp and most, or often only, pronounced when associated with the area of the septa. Again older research papers refer to this effect - papers which also happened to come from researchers in Texas. Which segways to the next point..

-in the old literature (usually field notes/observations) it was noted that many cultivars expressed different traits in Texas when compared to the same sib lines being grown on the east coast or in California. One such example was 'Pearsons' which under East Texas conditions expressed oxheart shaped fruits there but not in other US locations for the same accession/seed batch. So there may be something to the environment (light levels, temp, soil)in Texas which changes the expression slightly.

- segregates of Galina's x Black from Tula also did this striping. {{gwi:1297106}} Again these stripes correlated to the area of the septa.

- another note, CP fruits also seem to pass on a trait for partial yellow epidermis being expressed in progeny. What I have observed in a few segregates of CP crosses has been a yellow skin on the shoulder of the fruit but clear skin on the sides and bottom of the fruit. It too seems to be environmentally triggered (shows up one year, not there the next, then back again). I found complete yellow skin showed up at a very low rate from crosses of CP x a clear skinned type. With the Brandokee lines that trait was also noted with an oxheart like shape (3-4 fruits in about 50 F2's). Further segregation of those lines produced both yellow and clear skinned fruits but very low rates of oxhearts and about an even mix of elongated types (Like Sausage or Cow's Tit) and rounds. As a result I suspect CP might have some kind of other gene influencing the expression of yellow skin under certain conditons.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Thanks Carolyn I am a member and have SSE catolog plus Victory Bill