I grow every tomato in cages. Just makes life easier...

You don't need a huge stake and you don't need a big cage, the smaller tom cages will do nicely for DETs.

Mary,

Even determinate tomato bushes need some sort of support unless you want to grow them in a "sprawl." Yes, tree type dwarf tomatoes and erect growing determinate bush tomatoes will stand up on their own for awhile, but once the foliage gets thick, the wind blows, or the plant starts loading up with fruit, even the most sturdy growing determinates will lean over, touch the ground and then send new growth upward to repeat the process until they terminate at whatever length and age are predetermined by their individual genes.

With dwarf and "tree types," you can sometimes get by with a short, thin, rigid stick of some sort ... like a stalk of bamboo or one of those synthetic garden stake long enough poke in the ground with two or three feet sticking out ... then tie the central stalk of the plant to the bamboo using a figure-8 loop leaving sufficient slack to allow the tomato stalk to continue getting fatter.

Those cheap hoop wire cages you get at the dollar store or Wal*Mart for 99c to 1.59 ... kinda cone shaped dealies that are useless for indeterminates or tall, heavy determinate types ... are perfect for 2 - 3 foot dwarf or short bush tomatoes, but you still will need a stake to augment the wire cone when a heavy rugose plant fully develops its leaf canopy.

Another method used extensively by commercial growers of determinate and bush type tomatoes is the Florida Weave. Sturdy T-bar fence posts are used at regular but lengthy intervals to support this system with lighter wooden stakes set inbetween every two or three tomato plants. Then heavy jute or some other type cheap chord is woven in and out between the alternating tomato plants and secured to the stakes in such a manner as to make a trellis supporting the entire row of tomatoes. The lines of cord are strung horizontally about every foot in height off the ground.

Here is a Webpage with pictures of the Florida Weave method: Click Here and scroll down to Florida Weave

Compact growing determinate bush types sometimes are called "short stake" tomatoes because growers who don't use the Florida Weave or ground sprawl growing cultures often use a "short stake" culture to support their individual plants. That's what I do, and I find it totally satisfactory since with the Florida Weave, you are limited to walking long-ways down the entire row of plants, while with short stake culture you can pass in any direction through your patch.

This year I am finding more and more reason to go to determinate bush types and have found Bradley, Mozark, Rutgers, and a few others ideal (so far) for growing supported only by a single 6-foot wooden stake driven 18 inches into the ground. Then I tie the central stalk and the substantial side shoots to the stake using figure-8 loops of jute or cotton cord. So far, so good ... and I have some that already have reached four feet in height and are loading up with little greenies.

Bill

New Yorker is a determinate and it gets to be about 5' tall.
It needs to be staked.

Early Girl is an indeterminate plant and can get quite tall so needs to be staked or caged. Wayahead - two different varieties with the name. One is indeterminate. Depends on the seed source.

As hoosiercherokee said, they will all benefit from cages or stakes. Good luck. ;)

Wow, this forum is really hopping...it' so neat to see how many threads accumulate in just 1/2 a day!

Thanks for the responses, I guess I will make use of those old cages, afterall!! I'm glad, actually.

My Wayahead is Jung's. I didn't have the greatest germination rate on that way. I wintersowed all my tomatoes and they are just beautiful, but that one didn't germinate as well as some, and neither did Mortgage Lifter, which also was from Jung's. I understand there may be more than one source for Mortgage Lifter. I'm disappointed about that one, as I was really looking forward to it.

On the otherhand, I've heard that Black Brandywine is a "dud" and so far, it has germinated and grown beautifully...I hope that means I'll have some Black Beauties!

OH MY GOSH....did I just hijack my own thread???? Tee hee

HoosierCherokee, I didn't see your post earlier, maybe we were writing at the same time. Thank you so much for that! I have a whole stack of antique T-bars that I pulled out of my back yard and saved. Yeah! They are about 5' high, maybe 4' above ground...do you think those will be high enough, or would I need to invest in the taller ones.

What is your source for your 6' wooden stakes?

To be honest, your method sounds preferable and easiest to me. I detest "set up" projects like the one I've done so far for my indeterminates. I do enjoy gardening, but not the set up and tear down of trellises, stakes and that sort of thing, not to mention laying out soaker hoses, plastic, etc...ahh....but the pay off will be grand, I'm sure. I'm going to go check out your site with the pics now.

Hoosier Cherokee, Have you grown the varieties that you've mentioned before?

Hi Digdirt, I had found on an internet search that Early Girl was a Semi-Determinate, but now I searched out my seed packet and it does, indeed, say Determinate...ya made me look! :)

sure no staking if you want your plants to sprawl on the ground. the fruit weighs heavy on tomato plants det. or ind.

Mary,

With regard to the questions in your latest post ...

1) Yes, I think 4 - 5 foot tall T-bar fence posts are perfect for setting up a Florida Weave for those determinates that may grow to 5 or 6 feet tall. If your plants grow taller and need more support, you can always wire extensions on top of your posts and stakes. You do so by cutting a short extension ... say a two or three foot long piece of wooden stake ... and use galvanized tie wire and a pair of side cutting pliars, lap the extensions along the top of the fence posts (or stakes) and twist on three tight loop ties to secure the extension.

2) My source of 6-foot hardwood stakes is Fisher Bros. Lumber Company in Chandler, Indiana. They mill them rough cut and sell them for 75 cents each, cash and carry. Last year they were 50 cents each. Everything is going up! Mine last several years and I only buy more when the bottom foot or so rots off or they otherwise get broken. I also cut bamboo poles from a thicket along the creek north of our neighborhood.

3. Yes, I have or am growing the varieties I mentioned. My dad grew Rutgers and Marglobes with I was a kid. I've grow Rutgers several times in the past, and am growing it again this year. This is the first year I've grown Bradley and like it so far, it's sturdy, bushy, and healthy as heck but it hasn't set any fruit yet ... so time will tell. I'm growing Mozark for the first time and it's really loaded up with green tomatoes the past week or so. It's a discontinued variety, but I was able to get some seeds from the University of Missouri. Another tomato in my garden this year that I think may be a determinate is Merced. It just started loading up with little green tomatoes this week. I also have several different dwarves, but I'm growing most of those in containers.

You didn't ask, but I think Early Girl Improved (the one currently on the market) is indeterminate. Not sure, but the last two years I grew it (2005, 2006) that was the information it came with and the way the plants grew. One of my tomato growing buddies on the east side of town tells me the old version of Early Girl he used to grow was determinate, but I don't have first hand confirmation of that.

Bill, I never considered Merced a determinate, semi maybe, but I do not remember how they were listed. Mine are loading up too. It is almost impossible to get a good picture showing much of the fruit on a plant with good foliage, (I may try later today) but the main things that I have always liked about Merced, and what prompts me to try to keep the line going for my garden is the productivity, reliability and a very good taste. The tomatoes are good sized but not huge. The two in the upper right background in

are Merced. I had one last year that was 12 Ozs. I have had them produce in abundance in the spring, then again in the fall.

Remember to tell me what you think later on.
Bill P.

There is a "Bush Early Girl" that is being listed as a determinate. My mother and one of my sisters are growing nursery-bought ones side by side with the regular Early Girl plants that I started for them and the two do seem to have a very different growth habit. The "bush" type is definitely staying very compact and the regular Early Girl is keeping pace with the other indeterminates in terms of the taller growth and successive flowering habit.

Mary, I have grown the indeterminate Early Girl for many years and the determinate Bush Early Girl once.

And, that fairly well sums up what I think of the two varieties.

Steve

I took a picture of

on one of the Merced plants. If you enlarge the picture and look closely, you can make out quite a few in just this small area. Determinate or indeterminate, I think that you would need some support unless you wanted it to sprawl on the ground as the fruits get larger and heavier.

To not support them and let them sprawl is o.k. if you have the room and some hay to mulch with to keep them out of the dirt.
Bill P.