I read that as "another new, as-yet unproven, theory as to why organic might possibly somehow be better."

If I grow using the hydroponic method, but using organic nutrients, then what? :)

I grow both using the organic method and the hydroponic method.

"There's a lot of confusion," said Alyson Mitchell, a professor of food chemistry and toxicology at the University of California, Davis. "For every study that shows there's a difference, there's another that shows there isn't."

******

Not much more I can add to the above.

(The research team relied on dried tomatoes that had been kept as part of broader, unrelated research comparing organic, conventional and intermediate growing methods over more than 10 years.)

And how does one measure flavinoids in dried tomatoes that could range in age up to 10 years old? I don't know what the correlation with fresh tomatoes might be and I don't know how the flavinoids are assessed and what their half life in dried or fresh tomatoes might be.

Keith, I think the opening statement of the article:

((In another tantalizing suggestion that organic produce may be more nutritious))

...puts this report into a greater persepctive than your subject title which says......(another reason organic is better.)

Ever since I moved to my new home in 1999 I've grown organically except a few years I just had to spray some Daconil. And I am in no way anti-organic growing and try hard to do so.

But the report 'Suggests" this and that and nothing has been proven as I read it.

Carolyn

Well, without being nasty or negative (because I do think
organic is probably better), the organic folks do tend to
get a wee bit carried away with their quest.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

I try to go organic, but I'm not fanatical about it.

I've always thought that "organic" was not so much for taste or nutrients, but for soil health and viability.

I agree gaguy! I try to be as organic as possible, but those ding dang snails are NOT going to be Escargough (sp) They are going to be DEAD!
I really try to do compost (homemade) etc in my garden and all that stuff, but sometimes it just doesn't happen!
Happy gardening! NT

I see no sense in making statements like "I TRY to go organic but sometimes I may use non organic methods for certain problems/situations". I think you either ARE an organic grower or you're not. I don't think there are 98% organic growers clubs or 83%ers or 50-50's. You are either an organic grower or you are not.

I also don't think organic growers get a "Wee Bit" carried away any more than the chemical people here do sometimes. I see it from both sides and about equally.

I also don't think this forum is the place to debate the merits or lack thereof of organic growing. There are other forums here for that.

I don't care if it's organic or not. But I have to say I read an article on MSNBC about a month ago that said there was a new study about cancer and lycopene. It basically said they couldn't find any benefit in eating things like tomatoes with high lycopene to fight cancer.

LOL... It's like what Carolyn pointed out. One study said one thing and another study says the opposite.

I see no sense in making statements like "I TRY to go organic but sometimes I may use non organic methods for certain problems/situations". I think you either ARE an organic grower or you're not. I don't think there are 98% organic growers clubs or 83%ers or 50-50's. You are either an organic grower or you are not.

******

Certainly that's your opinion, but I'd rather see folks lean towards trying to be more organic in the way that they grow things, as opposed to not trying at all. And that's my opinion, having grown both ways in the past. ( smile)

I also respect the right of anyone to grow however they want to.

(I also don't think this forum is the place to debate the merits or lack thereof of organic growing. There are other forums here for that.)

Yes, there is an organic growing Forum but I'm sure Keith posted here what he did because it wasn't a general issue with regard to organic growing, rather, it had to do with tomatoes and possible differences related to growing tomatoes more organically. And this is the Tomato Forum.

I don't see any debate occurring here, so far, re organic vs non-organic growing in general and I hope that does NOT occur. For such a general topic does belong in the Organic Forum here at GW in my opinion.

Carolyn

I don't see any debate occurring here, so far, re organic vs non-organic growing in general and I hope that does NOT occur. For such a general topic does belong in the Organic Forum here at GW in my opinion.

Carolyn

But you just KNOW it will occur HERE... even the thread title was biased. And it won't make it to the Organic Forum... they wouldn't post it there because it's like a religion and everyone there agrees on OG--there's nobody else to debate/argue there!

I also agree wth qaguy. And maybe bigdaddyj was referring to me as either the 50-50, or the carried away "chemical grower"--I'm a 'tween guy & use both. When someone asks a question about things like Miracle-Gro or Daconil or a manmade product (YES, they started with "natural elements" and modified or combined them to make a product more effective, less cumbersome/labor intensive, or even more readily available), I'll try to answer from experience if I can, or try to provide info/links. I rarely argue a point, but I will when someone comes on the Tomato forum and posts "IT'S POISON! IT'LL CAUSE CANCER! DON'T USE IT, YOU'LL KILL ALL YOUR PLANTS & HARM YOUR FAMILY!" I will stand up against opinionated misinformation.

I remember seeing a CNN news story some years back about a study on organic vs. non-organic fruits and vegetables. I know they were not looking for differences in flavanoids, but they were looking at taste, and whether non-organic fruits and veggies retained any traces of pesticides or other non-organic compounds. The results of that study were that there were no differences between organic vs. non-organic in terms of either taste or in residual pesticides, etc. So, non-organic fruits and veggies were not found to be less healthy than organic fruits and veggies.

HOWEVER, the study did find that, because of typical organic gardening techniques, the organic fruits and vegetables had a far higher concentration of e-coli bacteria from fecal matter used as fertilizer. The study determined that eating organic fruits and vegetables was far more dangerous that eating non-organic fruits and vegetable. I have always been less concerned about the effects of the using the blue stuff (which I'm sorry really does not seem materially different in any way as an effective fertilizer) than I have been with growing my tomatoes in feces. Oh well, maybe e-coli is not a problematic substance to consume.

But you just KNOW it will occur HERE... even the thread title was biased. And it won't make it to the Organic Forum... they wouldn't post it there because it's like a religion and everyone there agrees on OG--there's nobody else to debate/argue there!

I don't see much arguing here other than a few people complaining about organic growers being "preachy". I agree with bigdaddyj that people on both sides can tend to get preachy. That doesn't mean everyone on that side is though.

I'm willing to bet, as gardeners, we would all agree that there are a billion more favonoids in a tomatoe that was grown in our gardens than there are in a grocery store bought one :)

Using raw manure in a garden is a dangerous practice. It is not a typical organic gardening technique to do things that are dangerous. People who are uninformed might do that. Manure needs to be composted and aged for several months before it can be safely used in the garden.

There are any number of manufactured organic fertilizers are sterile, even those that are made from manure.

bigdaddyj you are making divisive statements here. It is not up to you to decide who is or isn't an "organic gardener", or any other sort of gardener for that matter. That is just being antagonistic for no good reason. You can speak for yourself, but you do not speak for others.

Carolyn wrote:

"Certainly that's your opinion, but I'd rather see folks lean towards trying to be more organic in the way that they grow things, as opposed to not trying at all. And that's my opinion, having grown both ways in the past. ( smile)"

Yeah, we agree. 99% organic is better than 50%. And I know there are many here who try to be as organic as possible but don't want to lose their tomatoes to disease so they go with the Daconil. That may be their only chemical they use and and the only difference between being ALL organic and not. Maybe someone else uses a little of the blue stuff on their seedlings but that's the only chem they use. Just a couple examples there. And I think that's great that most people here are trying to be as organic as possible and as less toxic as possible. (And please gang I don't use rotenone and never have)

But I stand by my statement that you are either an organic grower or you are not. I do not mean for this statement to be devisive as someone else here imagined. It is simply a fact. Again, for those of you who are like 95% "organic' I think that's great that you all are trying to be as organic as possible. You all must believe organic is a good thing. And if so, then all I can say, and in my LEAST preachy voice I can muster, is why not jump all the way in?...the water is fine...:)

Would this be true?

Inorganic fertilizers become organic once they have been used by plants.

dcarch

Would this be true?

Organic matter must degrade into chemical elements before a plant can absorb and use them as fertilizer.

Bill

bigdaddyj I assume that when you claim "you are either an organic grower or you are not" and that you stand by that statement, and you are "100% organic", we can therefore assume you keep a "Certified Organic" garden according to the USDA guidelines and federal law? And that your garden follows the entire National Organic Program of the USDA. Is that correct?

Because "Certified Organic" by the US Department of Agriculture is the only absolute and accepted standard, so I assume if you are going to make an absolute statement like that it means you have gone to the trouble to follow every guideline in the standard and preferably get certified? I hope it is that and not just self-professed organic. Because anything short of that, and every Certified Organic grower on the planet can rightfully say to you that you are not organic.

Posted by anthony_toronto (My Page) on Fri, Jul 6, 07 at 0:47

I remember seeing a CNN news story some years back about a study on organic vs. non-organic fruits and vegetables. I know they were not looking for differences in flavanoids, but they were looking at taste, and whether non-organic fruits and veggies retained any traces of pesticides or other non-organic compounds. The results of that study were that there were no differences between organic vs. non-organic in terms of either taste or in residual pesticides, etc. So, non-organic fruits and veggies were not found to be less healthy than organic fruits and veggies.
HOWEVER, the study did find that, because of typical organic gardening techniques, the organic fruits and vegetables had a far higher concentration of e-coli bacteria from fecal matter used as fertilizer. The study determined that eating organic fruits and vegetables was far more dangerous that eating non-organic fruits and vegetable. I have always been less concerned about the effects of the using the blue stuff (which I'm sorry really does not seem materially different in any way as an effective fertilizer) than I have been with growing my tomatoes in feces. Oh well, maybe e-coli is not a problematic substance to consume.

That was a John Stossel report on ABC, and they rescinded some of their statements (one or two, as I recall), as well as the conclusion that was drawn that non-organically grown produce was healthier than organically grown.

Slightly off the point, I see the whole issue of Organic Vs non-organic as a matter of time and money. I have four kids under 8 and yet I grow stuff all over my yard and deck.

My wife can barely tolerate my expenditure of time and money as is. If I was to purchase a bunch of expensive organic products and do all of the other things I would need to do to be totally organic my wife would leave me :-)

I love Mirical Grow and cheap 5-10-5 fertilizers. It makes my job so nice and easy.

I see organic additions as a good long term strategy for a garden but this year I just didn't have the time.

Love,
Greg

Frankly I see it all as a matter of time and money. I have 4 kids under the age of 8 and if I wa

Nobody on any planet can say to me that I am not organic. How many backyard gardeners growing only for their family and as a hobby are certified organic? Get real.

My only insecticide is an annual application of green lacewing bugs.

My only fertilizer is 'Sea Rich', a kelp/fish formula from Garden's Alive that I use very rarely and only early in the season.

Plenty of homemade compost, proper spacing, soaker hose and a good mulch. That's all you need. Chill out man. Is my interrogation over?

Bigdaddy so it is your belief you are organic. I respect your opinion but think you should likewise respect the opinions that differ from yours. It seems if someone don't grow 100% the way you do they are wrong. I feel that the best way to grow tomatoes for me probably isn't for you. And what works for you won't necessarily work here. Just my opinion. Jay

Jay, I am sorry you got that impression from my post. If someone grows all organically but uses Daconil because they can't bear to lose tomatoes I never said, nor do I believe, that they are wrong. I just said they aren't growing organically. Am I wrong by stating that?

I am no judge. I ain't a jury. There are a lot of folks here who practice many of the same organic methods I do except maybe they use Daconil for instance. That seems to be the only difference between myself and a few other regulars here. I was having a little fun saying something like "hey, you are so close, why not cross totally over!"

It was made in fun.

I didn't see any "lack of respect" on Big Daddy's part ... all I saw was some encouragement to try a little harder ... kinda like you get from a coach or a parent. (Big Daddy, you big fat nag! hahahahaha) Now, the rest of you ... get over yourselves.

Bill

Thank you Bill! I tried using my least preachy voice and I even ended the sentence with one of these guyz....:)

Ok, I nag a little but I am happy to say I'm no longer fat. I lost 60 pounds between last August and this March and I'm keeping it off. I'm now 6'3" and a skinny 195/200 pounds and I feel great! So maybe "skinnydaddyj" from now on? HaHaHa!