However, noone has said they have gotten green/blue mold as in my case. Are they bad or is that normal.

****

Fairly normal.

The spores of any fungi in the air can fall into the fermentation containers so one can get different genera/species that are part of the fungal mat.

On the plus side, many of the Penicillium fungi have blue green fruiting bodies and if the fungus synthesizes penicillin then that's just great in terms of eliminating some of the pathogenic bacterial contamination found on the seeds that you're processing.

Nothing to worry about.

Carolyn

Thanks a lot Carolyn.

Dr C, I read an article on how seeds are saved commercially and it talked about giving an "acid bath" as the last thing before a final rinse and drying. Is that to eliminate bacteria or any remaining clinging fruit material???

BTW, if the "Blue-Green" is good, is there any way to force that to happen? and wouldn't that be like "Vaccinating" our seeds??? :>)

I rinse in a very weak bleach solution to kill any surviving pathogens--is that what you mean by "acid bath"?

Yes, I believe the article talked about a very weak solution (0.7%) of HCL (Hydrochloric Acid). What dilution of the bleach are you using?

Dr C, I read an article on how seeds are saved commercially and it talked about giving an "acid bath" as the last thing before a final rinse and drying. Is that to eliminate bacteria or any remaining clinging fruit material???
*****

There is no one way to process seeds and yes, HCl can be used or TSP or oxi-clean, for instance and what those do is to oxidize and break down the tomato tissue to release the seeds. Hot water treatment is done for some pathogens such as Bacterial Wilt, which appear to be in the endosperm of the seeds, not on the outside of the seed.

But I do not encourage home gardeners, especially those with small children or 4 footed pets to use such caustic substances as HCL, TSP or Oxi-clean, for instance.

Fermentation is gentle and serves the purpose well although those who grow many plants and process lots of seed may find it easier to use one of the other methods.

Some use a Clorox rinse on already processed seed to help ensure that some adventitious pathogens might be removed from the seed coat but Clorox would not be used initially to process seeds.

if you look at the fine print in some commercial catalogs you'll see that most seed is initially fermented and then possibly, but not always, treated with TSP.

*****
BTW, if the "Blue-Green" is good, is there any way to force that to happen? and wouldn't that be like "Vaccinating" our seeds??? :>)

Nope, no way to stack the deck towards the blue/greens b'c you have to take what comes out of the air which is random.

The bit about fermentation has maintained that the fungi are supposed to secrete antibiotics which kill the bacterial pathogens, the acid conditions of the fermentation kill the pathogenic viruses and the products of fermentation take the gel capsule off the seeds.

Carolyn

Here is an Article about bleaching tomato seeds from Ohio State University. They recommend 4 parts water to one part Clorox or Purex (5.25% sodium hypoclorite household bleach) for a final bleach bath followed by a good rinsing.

One wrinkle in the hot water bath vs. fermentation, is the ability to verify viability.
During the fermentation, viable ones sink. At least for me it works.

One wrinkle in the hot water bath vs. fermentation, is the ability to verify viability.
During the fermentation, viable ones sink. At least for me it works.

The major problem with the hot water bath to destroy possible bacterial pathogens in the endosperm is loss of viability of seeds and I don't reccomend that homne gardeners try hot water bath procedures, of which there are several.

Carolyn

The link to the Ohio State University article was for the purpose of referencing the 4:1 bleach bath solution relative to the question asked above in this thread. The hot water bath process just happened to tag along there.

Whenever I use fermentation, I follow up with a bleach bath.

Besides, anymore, I find eliminating fermentation altogether and going straight through a kitchen cleanser plus bleach soak and scrub, or a Calgon with bleach soak and scrub more efficient and just as effective as a four day fermentation and bleach bath follow-up. But this thread was about "fermentation," so ...

hoosiercherokee,
How do you test viability?

hoosiercherokee,
How do you test viability?

****

I'm not Bill and he can add to this if he wishes but the viability of seeds means...will they germinate.

So take maybe 10 seeds and either sow them in artificial mix and see what percentage germinate or you can do it also my putting 10 seeds in wet paper towels and measuring the same thing/

Many folks will determine the viability of their seeds before sowing them themselves if they processed their own seed or for trading purposes or b'c they're concerned about viability and seed age and they have a lot of really old ones around, as I do.

Carolyn

Oregon-V,

Regarding "testing viability ..."

Any process I use to clean tomato seeds includes a final thorough rinse in cold water to remove bleach or other chemical residue. During the final rinse, I flood the seeds with cool water in a deep bowl, swirling the seeds around to float out any trash. That usually results in the heavier seeds whirlpooling into a clump at the bottom of the bowl and the immature seeds either floating or slipping out over the rim with the rest of the trash as I pour out the water. So, that approximates the "floater" elimination you get in your fermentation process ... at least for me.

Regarding what Carolyn said above about trisodium phosphate and oxiclean ...

I have some trisodium phosphate on hand (Tom Wagner is a big proponent and gave detailed instructions), and I've read about the oxiclean method, too (Feldon has detailed instructions for the oxiclean method somewhere at feldoncentral). But last year there was discussion about soaking fresh squeezed seeds in kitchen cleanser with bleach (like "Comet with bleach"), and I tried that. It works great. You just sprinkle a heavy dose of Comet onto the pulp in a strainer and let it set for 15 - 30 minutes and scrub off the gel, transfer to a bowl and flood with water, etc. as I described above.

Then I read the ingredients on Calgon with bleach and found it might approximate a milder than TSP process while still affording a good bleaching action. So, I tried mixing an ounce or two of Calgon automatic dishwasher detergent (the product that also contains a hypochlorite) with the seeds and pulp, letting that set for a half hour - an hour in a strainer followed by a good scrubbing and rinsing process. That worked great too.

Now as to actually testing viability ...

Following my initial switch from fermentation plus a follow-up bleach bath to using Comet with bleach and Calgon with bleach, I tested several batches of finished seeds. I consistently got 92 - 98% germination and always used a minimum 50 seeds per batch per test. I usually process several hundred seeds from at least three or more varieties each time I do seeds, so I test germinate batches of seeds for which I have plenty of seed. If those test out good, I assume the seeds from other batches processed using the same techniques will pass muster as well.

So, that worked out fine for me. The fact that immature or "unviable" seeds tend to float in fermentation is just coincidental to the process. The elimination of non-viables evidently can be achieved without fermentation. Fermentation is just one process ... not the be all and end all of tomato seed processing.

And eventually, I do plan on employing the hot water bath as well, because it appears to be an effective way to address pathogens that rest inside the seed coat and are not effectively addressed by fermentation, bleach, trisodium phosphate, or other methods. It's just that I have not set up for hot water bath process yet ... with thermometers, timers, etc.

Bill

Bill, please tell us what you mean by "a good scrub" and how you go about it.

BTW, TSP is available at Lowe's (paint department) and other Home improvement stores.

"... tell us what you mean by "a good scrub" and how you go about it."

Squeeze a couple of tomatoes out into a stainless steel wire strainer in the kitchen sink. Run cool water over the pulp and rub it around the bottom of the strainer bustin' up the mash and forcing some of the pulp through the strainer.

Kinda scrape all the seeds and remaining pulp up into a pile in the center of the strainer bottom, and sprinkle a liberal amount of Comet with Bleach or pour a glob of Calgon with Bleach onto the seed mash. Let that set for 30 minutes or so maybe stirring it just a little every ten minutes to make sure the chemicals are interacting with the pulp pile. If it looks like the mix could use a bit more product, add some.

Then take a wooden spoon or wear rubber gloves and rub the seed mash around the bottom of the strainer really vigorously until all the dissolved mash has been forced through the screen wire ... or as much of it as possible ... and the seeds look free of gel.

Run some cool water over the remaining seeds and clean them up as best you can. Then knock all the seeds into a deep, steep-sided kitchen mixing bowl being very careful to remove all the seeds from the strainer and the wooden spoon or other tools, etc., and getting them all into the bowl. Then bang out the strainer really hard on the bottom of the sink and use a good long blast of water to thoroughly wash out the strainer making sure to dispose of any stray or clinging seeds ... down the drain!

Now, fill the bowl 3/4 full of cool water by running the water into the bowl along one side to create a whirlpool effect. The good seeds should gather into a pyramid (if you have a lot of seeds) or a little mound at the bottom of the bowl. Carefully pour out the water in such a way as to dispose of the floating and remaining trash, and don't be too worried if a few seeds also leave the pile and go down the drain. The heaviest (most mature) seeds will generally stay together in a mass ... kinda like panning for gold.

Oh yeah ... while the bowl is still 3/4 full of water, stir the water with your hand vigorously enough to agitate the seeds and help rid them of any chemical residue. Give the water a stir and the seeds should re-marshal themselves into a clump.

Repeat the rinsing procedure until the seeds look clean and don't smell like bleach or feel slimey like they have a chemical residue on the seed coat.

When you're finished rinsing the seeds and have poured off the last rinse water, remove the seeds from the bowl and onto a paper plate marked with the name of the variety. Move the seeds apart so as many of them are not touching one another as is practical. While you're doing this, kinda look real close to see if all the gel was dissolved off the seed coat.

Let the seeds dry for a week or so. It doesn't take seeds as long to dry when you process them this way as it does when you ferment them ... because they're not waterlogged.

Whenever you do any seed processing, make daggone good and sure that no stray seeds remain in the strainer, in the bowl, on your fingers, on your tools, under your fingernails, etc. And if you ever seed a seed somewhere outside the strainer, bowl, whatever ... even if you really think you're sure you saw if fly off the batch you're currently working on ... never assume you know which batch it belongs with! Throw it away.

Okay? Well, not so technical ... but that's the short version.

Hoosiercherokee,When you use that method do you dust your seeds with 'thriam' when your finished? If so could you explain its purpose?
Thanks AL

Hoosiercherokee,When you use that method do you dust your seeds with 'thriam' when your finished? If so could you explain its purpose?

****

Again I'll give a semi-short answer and Bill can expand if he wishes to.

Thiram is an antifungal that's used to coat seeds that are direct planted in soils that might be cold which encourages rotting and destruction of the seeds by fungi.

It's commonly found coating squash and cuke and melon seeds from some seed sources and I guess occasionally some tomato seeds of hybrids although I haven't seen it but once.

Since most of us start our tomato seeds inside with warm temps in aritificial mix I personally don't see any need to use Thiram.

There are commercial farmers in certain areas of the country that do direct seed tomato seed, areas of CA, for example, and I suppose Thiram coated seeds might be an advantage in such cases.

I don't even know if one can even buy it but I'm not in the mood to Google that right now. LOL

Carolyn

Alley-C,

You asked about "thriam." Are you talkin' about "Thiram?"

Around here, grain farmers buy Thiram coated seed to prevent various ailments like damping off, seedling and seed decay, verticillium, etc. associated with pre and post emergent corn, soybeans, wheat, alfalfa ... grain farming mostly.

I've bought tomato seeds coated with a powder that I think is Thiram or something similar ... it looks pink or green on the seed coat, right? And there's a warning on the package that cautions not to eat the seeds :::smile:::

No, I don't treat the seeds past what happens as described in my post above; or if I ferment the seeds, I finish with a bleach bath as described in the Ohio State Univerity fact sheet.

Without trying to sound silly does the condition of the tomato that you save seeds from matter? In Trudi's article in the FAQ section she recommends tomatos chosen from the healthiest plants. I wasnt able to see the stock plant from my donner tomato. Also i didnt 'get to my seeds' as fast as i would have liked and the tom was way over ripe. Is that a negative factor?
seeds from green toms?
seeds from ripe toms?
seeds from rotten toms?
Thanks AL

Without trying to sound silly does the condition of the tomato that you save seeds from matter? In Trudi's article in the FAQ section she recommends tomatos chosen from the healthiest plants. I wasnt able to see the stock plant from my donner tomato. Also i didnt 'get to my seeds' as fast as i would have liked and the tom was way over ripe. Is that a negative factor?
seeds from green toms?
seeds from ripe toms?
seeds from rotten toms?

****

I can only share with you what I have done in 20 or so years that I've been saving seed from OP's by traditional fermentation.

First, if you're interested in maintaining genetic diversity it's good to recognize that genetic diversity exists with a variety as well.

So when harvesting fruits for seed it's best to never save seed from one fruit, better to save seeds from many fruits from one plant and best to save seed from several fruits from each of several plants of the same variety.

I've always used firm, ripe fruits for seed saving and the overall health of the plant has not been a concern. That is, there may be some foliage diseases, etc. Sometimes that means picking some of them half ripe and letting them ripen up. And that's b'c I want to do large batches of a single variety at one time rather than saving seeds from just a few fruits at one time.

I have saved seed from overripe ones, in a pinch, but prefer not to....no good reason. Good to remember that it's often the rotten ones that fall to the ground that give rise to volunteers the next year so seeds saved from ovedrrip eones should be OK. But I do find that rotten ones don't allow for the best fungal mat found on the top of the glop in the fermentation container and I suppose that could be related to the pH of rotten tomatoes.

In only one or two instances have I had to save seeds from rotten ones and it turned out OK. See abive paragraph.

For me overripe is not the same as rotten. ( smile)

Seeds are mature if a fruit has a good blush of color at the bottom . I've never been able to get good mature seeds from grass green fruits. Tom Wagner maintains he can and he does so with TSP, but I don't think that makes a difference. But then Tom is also saving seeds from just one fruit most of the time for use in his breeding projects.

Carolyn

Well put, thanks Carolyn!

Thanks to all. Anytime we can have a half dozen of the "real tomato-ologists" on one topic at the same time, the knowledge flows profusely. I LLUVVV IT!!!!

If we ALL can use good methods and practices in saving our seeds, then many folks who are reluctant to accept them might change their minds a bit. I find the method with fermentation and a "bleachy bath" to be easy. I bought some Baxter Early Bush Cherry plants yesterday at a local market. They have ripe fruit and I think this is a good time to try Bill's "Scrub" method. Sounds easy, too.

.....Bill's Scrub Method.....
___________________________________

I decided to do a modified version of Bill's Scrub Method. I scraped out all of the larger seeds and most of the green gel and this went into a small glass Mason Jar. Then, over a second Mason Jar, I dumped everything into a small strainer and did the scrub just as Bill had described. The scrub broke up the clumps and the strainer caught a lot of the green goo while the juice went into the jar. The seeds didn't have much junk left on them.

It was decision time. The more I thought about it, the more logical it seemed to do the fermentation. The "scrub" had eliminated clumps and blobs and had at least made the process easier for the bacteria that develop. I still had the juice, so I put the seeds in there and began the fermentation phase.

I don't think I wimped out on Bill's method (well, ....), but I've had such good results with the normal fermentation method, I just couldn't abandon it. I am convinced the scrub will produce seeds much more uniformly "cleaned" and ready for a bit of bleach water to finish the disinfecting step.

Thanks, Bill. I'll try the fast method sometime in the near future.