Weren't you originally interested in the 8ER? AJ Madison has that for $1169. Sears rebadges one of the Bosches too, but I don't know which model it is. I don't think Bosch dictates its pricing, but I was recently told by two different companies (one of them Sears) that Dacor does fix the price. I was surprised that could happen but apparently it does. I always try to get the best price possible too, Derek87; that is just good business sense.

Alice,
can you email me or post the link...I am finding everything over 2K....are they already subtracting the $300?
the best price I have found is around $2045 before the rebate. Would LOVE to see where you are looking.
I googled but not seeing anything under 2K

Honestly, I'm not thrilled about posting store names, nor emailing an anonymous person from a forum. The best I can tell you is to Google NIT8065UC and click the "shopping" option, then sort by price. The prices listed are with the rebate already subtracted. You will need to click on individual stores and search for instant coupons - typically an additional $75-$80 for the 8065 cooktop.

Then search for other Bosch models, like the 3065 or 5065 - That search may bring up some different stores that also carry the 8065, but for some reason weren't near the top of the search for the 8065 - no idea why.

Best of luck!

Alice,
I get your apprehension and I respect it.
I did not appreciate your condescending tone (that I perceived, and apologies if it was not your intent) that I did not bother looking or wish to invest the time.
I have spent the last 2 months checking prices and waiting, monitoring before I pull the trigger...It took months to come to terms with induction vs. propane and I am not a dizzy-head that blindly makes decisions.
I have some research skills and have used them extensively to find things. If I happen to miss something, it is not for lack of trying.

I was extremely frustrated when I ran into "regional mandated pricing" when I was shopping for my appliances.

I even called Costco in Canada to see if I could buy the BlueStar RCS that they sold for $2200, but they could not ship it to the US. I ended up buying the RNB from a local dealer (although I did try to find a dealer in WY, lol, because the tax here was so high) and paid over $5500 for it.

I lucked out and bought most of my appliances at Ultimate Electronic's going-out-of-business sale. I saved over $7000.

I bought my KA refrigerator/freezer drawer unit for the bar online from a dealer in NY. "Regional mandated pricing" here in CO was several hundred dollars more, plus tax. I got free shipping and no tax, and saved over $600.

It's one thing if the price is consistent across the board. But when there's one price for the East Coast and another for the West, I don't see why I should be forced to pay the higher price, simply because of where I live.

I bought my Bosch 30" oven/MW--the exact model I wanted!--at Ultimate for over $1000 off. It was a special order that someone hadn't picked up, and I spotted it behind a huge pile of microwaves. Could not believe my luck!!

My point is, seek and ye shall find. Many online dealers will negotiate, although you might run into a little resistance at first. Salespeople at big-box chain stores generally can't, although they might tell you of an upcoming sale. I found Lowe's and Sears to have consistently higher prices than most places, FWIW.

As far as "taking food from (the) children's mouths"...a discounted sale is better than NO sale.

" I don't see why I should be forced to pay the higher price, simply because of where I live."

Of course you don't, you're thinking with blinders on.

If you wanted to ship a pair of skis from CO, how much do you think it would cost you to send them to say, Utah? How about New York?

What about Hawaii?

Where you live has a lot to do with what things cost, especially things that take up a lot of space and weigh hundreds of pounds.

antss - I ran into the same regional pricing looking for an induction cooktop. I though I wanted a Kitchenaid, until it was $1100 on the East Coast (with free shipping) or $1800 where I live. Kitchenaid, unfortunately, allows only about a 150 mile radius so I was out of luck. If stores can afford to ship it to me across the country at no additional charge, there is not a reason in the world my local store should charge so much more. So, I'll be getting a Bosch (because they place no such restrictions on their retailers), which will arrive from the East coast, no shipping charges, for $850 less than I would pay here. I would be foolish to pay the price my local stores want (and, yes, I did give them the opportunity to meet the price, or even drop their price a little, but they were unwilling to negotiate at all). It sounds like you are thinking with blinders on. It's a global economy, like it or not, and local businesses will have to learn to compete if they want to survive.

"It sounds like you are thinking with blinders on. It's a global economy, like it or not, and local businesses will have to learn to compete if they want to survive."

Absolutely not - I went to school and have worked all over the Western Hemisphere and I have a very good understanding of how businesses, both mom and pop and gigantic multinationals operate and the environment they compete in. You don't really think that "free shipping " is really free. do you ? Part if the current "crisis" we're in is because people that had no idea of costs and long term viability were making decisions that looked great today but sold them selves down the ricer tomorrow.

I can sell you all the cooktops you want for $400 less than they cost me- till the end of the month when the money I owe is actually due! Salespeople don't care they, collect there prizes and commissions and move on to the next stopover of a job.

Now, a company may choose to absorb that cost themselves in order to sell you the item, that's their choice, but it's not "free". And they cannot continue to do that for very long. I'm sure you know the internet vs. real store
argument. If all the real stores go away because you want a lower price - you'll be relegated to ordering from a catalog because there will be no merchandise to touch.

Also, my point is not that you, or anyone else, should just pay whatever is asked unquestioned. My point is that costs vary all over on a particular item, and just because store x has a higher price than store i, doesn't mean you are getting hosed.

"So, I'll be getting a Bosch (because they place no such restrictions on their retailers), which will arrive from the East coast,"

Are your certain about this? The cooktop may have been ordered from an internet order taker located on the east coast, but where is the order filled/shipped from? I'd be very surprised if you are actually getting the cooktop shipped from a bricks and mortar store or warehouse on the east coast for $800 less than you can get it across the Mississippi. But, then again, little surprises me anymore.

More likely you got an order taken on the east coast and filled from a warehouse on the west.

If you purchase multiple items the discounts can be applied to the package and the dealer does not violate their agreement with the manufacturers and distributors.

I have gotten GDs 'free' as part of a package, or a hefty discount on an item not covered by agreements when other items are.

antss is right. Some people think that every price represents the vendor/retailer/whoever raping the public. American workers aren't cheap, you need a continent with no civil rights or labor laws to get nice cheap products. AKA India and China.

If you want to shop based on who gives you the the impression of a good deal then that's your choice. However, making that the chief or sole assessment of a vendor's suitability is just not logical. See my IBM reference above.

Vendors/manufacturers put in these rules about minimum prices because the retailers piss away all the profits. How you ask? Like this:

A retailer/reseller gets margin points which are negotiated with the manufacturer. That means that whatever the final sale price is, the reseller gets, say, 20 points of margin and the rest goes to the manufacturer. The manufacturer subtracts out their COGS, SGA and whatever else (you can Google those terms) and what remains is net. Not necessarily profit because that's calculated at a company level. (I should say that this model applies to a non-stocking retailer, one where they don't actually buy the product wholesale but rather order through a distributor or directly from the factory at the time of sale.)

So let's say something sells for $1000. The reseller gets $200 (simplifying the math here between markup, margin, discount, wholesale cost, etc) and the manufacturer gets $800.

Now let's say that a bunch of resellers start fighting and everyone starts cutting the price down to $850. Well, the reseller will get less and so will the vendor.

To help curb this resellers usually have a maximum discount level established by vendors. That is analogous to a wholesale cost, and again sometimes resellers actually buy/stock the product and sometimes they just order and drop ship from a distributor.

Those end up being floors between the manufacturer and the channel but MAPs are generally designed to keep the resellers from pissing away all the profits on the customer facing side. With internet retailers this becomes even more important. If one store somewhere has a big sale it can easily be found by anyone in the country now. So the vendors end up losing significant amounts of money to the expectation that the lowest price should always win.

Going back to this thread, the expectation that a "good" vendor is one that doesn't do MAPs or "price fix" or whatever you want to call it is simply a great way to run your company into the ground. Sure, maybe not overnight, but it will happen over time. Then we can start a new thread about how long will Company X be in business to service my appliance that I got at a fire sale.

See where this is going?

I am simplifying a LOT as these business relationships can be extremely complicated. My experience with it is from the
$35B annual revenue company that I work for. Things might be slightly different for any given industry but I'll bet a dollar that the above is 90% on target for most.

Hope that helps. Just trying to provide an alternate perspective and a little insight into why pricing can be this way. Not saying anyone has to like it or that it will never change.

-Stooxie

Absolutely certain - brick and mortar store, with which I have done business previously - shipped from their store. But, frankly, I wouldn't care either way.

There are times, of course, when you are correct - things cost more because of shipping. However, many times things cost more simply because there is no perceived competition in an isolated area. Smart retailers know that many people don't shop around. Smart shopper unapologetically get the best deal they can. Sure, that does mean compromises: 1) I probably can't actually touch my items before I buy them, but that is my reality for most items since I live in a rural area. 2) I won't get service from the store from which I purchases. This is irrelevant, however, for most items, since I will see the same local service company regardless of where I purchase.

For items with readily available specifications, a local store adds absolutely nothing to my purchase - inexperienced staff that know less about the item than I do, no working models on site (with rare exception), nothing unique or compelling. Those items that require some artistry - for those I happily pay the premium necessary. In those case, the premium buys me things of value - skill, expertise, artistry, uniqueness.

SGA?
Second Generation Antipsychotic?
Scottish Games Association?
Straight Guy Anxiety?
Southern Governors Alliance?

Stooxie, one question: What appliance manufacturer agrees to part company with one of it's units for less than the current price sheet based upon a singleton deal made on Crazy Al's sales floor?

Hi Mojavean,

SGA = Selling and general administration.

You're point is taken, but, again, that is not always the model. It COULD be, so I'm not saying you're wrong, and it is the model with stocking dealers and cars, and other things. It all depends on how the channel is set up. However, if resellers kept prices higher, by wrapping service around it, etc, then more ends up back at the manufacturer.

For example, most dealers won't stock a million dollars worth of Bluestar or Capital ranges. Things that are built on demand, so their channel models may be different.

As others here have correctly noted, people expect pricing to match zero-value-add retailers but expect local service anyway.

-Stooxie

Stooxie: "As others here have correctly noted, people expect pricing to match zero-value-add retailers but expect local service anyway."

Is local service much of an issue in the appliance business? It seems like appliance dealers seldom, if ever, do the repair service (it is relegated to separate repair companies), and whether something is covered under warranty appears to be dictated by the manufacturer. It's my perception that the sales company only becomes a factor if you have to have the appliance replaced, and even then the decision to replace is often left to the manufacturer (after multiple repairs show it to be a lemon).

I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but I'm having trouble with where the local "value-add" comes into play with appliance dealers, other than the replacement scenario. Can you elaborate on that?

Hi Hilltop,

Well, you're getting into a very interesting topic there. Retailers/resellers are supposed to be able to add value in all sorts of ways, chief among them is pre-sales support, i.e. helping you pick which models to buy and sorting out your requirements. Also as others have noted, most resellers are becoming useless for that sort of thing. Vendors "pay" those margin points under the assumption that they will flog the product appropriately.

GW is a place people come to get a lot of that pre-sales support because, unfortunately, this kind of expertise is getting harder to find. It's a role typically fulfilled by retailers but that is changing.

So given that, let's ask the next question: why have resellers in the first place? Having a channel has all sorts of benefits IF it operates the way you need it to. You expand your reach, thus expanding your market. Resellers are supposed to have better relationships with you since they are closer and know you and your individual needs better. They have more time to answer questions and help you make the right choices. After the sale they can help you with support questions, installation questions, order user-serviceable parts, etc.

Does that all happen? Should it happen? Tough to say these days. With the internet, more and more of those "hits" are going straight back to the manufacturer so their costs actually end up increasing while the resellers still make their money. A vendor could choose to go direct for everything but then they would be totally responsible for their own direct marketing, sales, support, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "boo hoo" for all the vendors, just that there are real consequences, costs and issues out there in a changing marketplace.

Post sales support, as you point out, for appliances adds a different twist but it's still much the same story. Many companies out-source the actual support delivery. My Nintendo Wii needed to be repaired and after I got done filling out all the web forms I was directed to a 3rd party company that actually did the work. Just because a local gas plumber fixes my range doesn't mean the reseller channel has no responsibility to me.

In short, the most fundamental aspect to selling is always the relationship with the customer. The world is changing, though, as we like to buy on relationship but pay on a commodity price.

-Stooxie

At the end of the day this goes back to what I've always said:

No one gives a hoot about anyone but themselves!

The deal whores only want to save their hard earned cash (for another deal ) and have the competitive landscape lay mines for businesses to navigate all under the guise of "competition".

Businesspeople only want customer's to keep quiet and pay whatever they are asked AND not complain even when the products they sell are crap.

The problem is that MAP pricing is essentially price fixing which, in other industries, has been banned and prosecuted by the FTC. So why does it thrive in the appliance industry?

The manufacturer will get the same price for their product either way - it's called the "wholesale" or distributor price. What we are talking about is the Retail price. Retailers receive all types of support and incentives from manufacturers including advertising dollars, floor plan (sales floor display inventory financing), volume targets etc.

So then why is it necessary for the Manufacturer to dictate the selling price to the consumer? Each retailer should be able to sell items at whatever price makes sense for them, presumably at a profit if they plan on staying in business for any length of time. These are the pillars of capitalism and a free market economy.

I reject your theory that the MAP is the true selling price when most other businesses use Suggester Retail Pricing and let the retailer decide what they will sell for. There are buying clubs(ie. DirectBuy) that allow their members to get pricing below these MAP prices, so in essence the rest of us are overpaying by not joining these groups.

I applaud Dee's efforts. If she has the time and ability to find what she wants at a better price, more power to her.

If you would like to pay more for your purchases, you can do so anytime by walking into any store and paying the MSRP. Do that for a car and the dealer will be your new best friend.

Dee is deeageaux, pron. diego and he is male, for future reference.

Be aware that at least one of the RPM cheerleaders is a high-end retailer who directly benefits from the fact that he does not have to compete on price for those goods sold under strict price-fixing schemes from various manufacturers.

There is no direct benefit to the consumer at all. RPM (resale price maintenance) is designed to benefit retailers directly, and manufacturers somewhat less directly. Retailers benefit when they need not compete with Internet discounters by virtue of price. The makers benefit because their network of brick and mortar dealers are the only places where prospective customers can come in and handle the merchandise.

This network is like an asset for the manufacturers. If THEY had to pay the rent on thousands of stores and pay thousands of employees to push their wares, they would not be nearly so able to pocket their fat profits, and would be facing constant downward price pressure from their dealers and distributors trying to compete with internet and big box economy of scale sellers. Elimination of price competition is one way to counter that downward pressure.

One COULD argue that preserving the retailers helps the consumer by ensuring that they stay open. The problem with this contention is that it rewards inefficiency and punishes innovation. Dealers who could prosper selling the items for less, who have streamlined or cut costs to increase volume, are not allowed to increase their volume based upon the lowered price. And THAT is where the problem comes in.

RPM, aka MAP, completely removes the component of retail price competition for every product for which it is adopted.

The Sherman Anti-trust act was put in place to end price-fixing. For years, it was interpreted to include schemes such as those seen recently in the appliance business. (Yes, what Miele is doing used to be interpreted as illegal in the US.) Laissez-faire activist judges have swung case law over to the side of letting them get away with it. But the problem is that the public, sooner or later, is going to get ticked that they can't buy for cheap on the internet anymore, and then they are going to rebel.

All of this nonsense is immediately correctable by Congress. There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution preventing Congress from taking action to end vertical price fixing. The only reason it is not being done right now is that the problem is relatively isolated and Congress, at least the House, is completely on the leash of the US Chamber of Commerce, an entity that has become solely a voice of the plutocracy. But when people start complaining, my guess is Miele and the others will be brought to heel.

It's not just appliances - it happens with other so-called "luxury" items. Mont Blanc pens used to be available at Staples at a substantial discount until Mont Blanc decided they didn't want the riff-raff owning their pens.

"So then why is it necessary for the Manufacturer to dictate the selling price to the consumer? "

Because not all manuf.give :

"all types of support and incentives from manufacturers including advertising dollars, floor plan (sales floor display inventory financing), volume targets etc. "

"why is it necessary for the Manufacturer to dictate the selling price to the consumer?'

because not all will sell it at a rate that makes sense. At some point a product that is "discounted" heavily or often will no longer have the cache, market position, snob appeal , ect.. Then I (as a manufacturer) won't be able to charge a price that covers my costs and a profit and I'll have to cheapen my product and pretty soon a high end brand that had a reputation for quality and longevity will no longer be in that position.

Just go ask Maytag and KitchenAid how their strategy has worked out for them. Both were pillars of the appliance industry decades ago and now, one is out of business and the other has a slew of problems producing quality items.

SO what, you might say ? Well, if I am the custodian of a brand or running a co. that needs to turn a profit and be around in ten or twenty years, I'm not about to let some quick buck artist appliance hawker chisel away at my brand just so a few of you can get a "deal".

Selfish? Maybe. But consider this: The "free market" 10 years ago decided that everyone should have a home, one larger and more luxurious than they could afford, and flogged them like penny candy at rates that the "market" wanted to pay.

How did that working out for your pension plan, 401k, gas prices, fees you pay your bank, and taxes?

Are you guys screaming "let the market dictate prices" ???

"There are buying clubs(ie. DirectBuy) that allow their members to get pricing below these MAP prices,"

I seriously doubt you can provide hard factual evidence that a brand that uses MAP leaves a place like Direct Buy under that price if at all. Direct Buy is just a hair above a scam anyway. You are not going to get a Sub Zero or a Miele there any cheaper than I can down the street at ABT. Sorry, but all the club pricing you hear about is not quite factual and when asked to "prove" the deal they disappear like invisible ink.

"I applaud Dee's efforts. If she has the time and ability to find what she wants at a better price, more power to her. "

So, do I. But you have to remember he is not simply getting what he wants , brand new with warranty, TODAY for a price cheaper than list/asking/MAP. He is able to get "deals" the old fashion way. He changes the specification of her original "want", he buys a demo/return/discontinued model, - or used, a scratched or dented one , or finds a store that is going out of business and has slashed prices because they are sinking and getting full price is not of much concern.

You can do this too - but it's not the same thing as a lower price on a brand new in the box under warranty current model appliance.

"Do that for a car and the dealer will be your new best friend. "

People did, and loved it for a pretty good while at Saturn. And I challenge you to decipher an average car deal - you have no earthly idea what it cost the manuf. to produce and they can put any cost they want on it. And do you think you'll pay more for delivery of a Toyota made in TN if you live in Spokane or Memphis? And will the dealer keep the "cash back" or will you get it? And lets not get started on the F&I dept, but I assume you are all walking in with cash so we prob.. don't have to worry there.

That is a horrible example as people generally hate the car industry sales process and few can understand the pricing.

"There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution preventing Congress from taking action to end vertical price fixing."

There is no provision forbidding price management or even price fixing - it's simply not a Constitutional issue. The courts and the market will work it out.

FURTHERMORE - no one is forcing you to buy an appliance from one of these manuf. that engage in this. You don't HAVE TO HAVE a miele dishwasher- you can buy a Hotpoint or SEMG or a Magic Chef - none of which have MAP ect...

Your cable or satellite bill is no differnet - you pay the price and if you want a lower price you get less features (channels) or lower quality (Std. definition vs. HiDef). Play your electricity provider off against the internet ??? Enron tried a free market set up for electricity and brought you the brownouts in California- wanna sign up for that ???

Vote your pocket book and stop whining.

3 guesses who the dealer is? ;-)

antss - It wasn't the free market placing folks in homes they couldn't afford - it was congressional meddling that required lending institutions to lend to folks that couldn't otherwise qualify for home loans. So, yes, please let the market dictate pricing and quality. If a manufacturer wishes to preserve their brand and reputation they should quit producing garbage and control quality so they can get a higher price. Alternatively, they can produce mass quantities of garbage for a low price. There is a market for both. Retailers selling at a loss is a self-correcting situation as it is not a sustainable business model.

Alice - that's absolute rubish.

Congress didn't wake up one morning and say "everyone should own a home, let's relax interest rates so that can happen"

The President floated a grand feel good plan , but ultimately the lenders and sales weasels clamored for more customers/ sales in order to make more money and profit. Consumers didn't object because it was good for a lot of them.

It was totally the marketplace speaking. Unless, you don't consider banks, brokers, and builders as part of the "marketplace? No, of course you don't. Only consumers make up the marketplace and businesses are there to serve the customer. A quaint , but inaccurate view.

Moja - I've gone on record here saying that while I am a dealer per se, less than 15% of our revenue come from appliances and it's closer to 10. Furthermore none of our profit comes from appliance sales. ZERO, nada, zilch.

Our biggest rev. stream is on a product that has no advertised price, no minimum selling point - we could give it away to anyone for as long as we'd like to bleed cash. Our second largest is from professional fees which are highly elastic and easily "shopped".

Consequently............you are very much mistaken on how RPM or MAP benefits me, I can make a strong case that it doesn't benefit me at all - except that it keeps the riff raff from wasting my valuable time. So you ease up on the speculation about my "motivation".

"Retailers selling at a loss is a self-correcting situation as it is not a sustainable business model."

Yes, but as a manuf I cannot let a few dumb@$$es screwup my brand along the way to the marketplace forcing them of business along the way. You see some co.'s don't want to be in the "garbage" business an it's usually the higher quality outfits that employ this practice. I fail to see why this is such a huge deal? I know of not one MAP appliance in which an alternative doesn't exist that has pick your payment pricing. Part of the reason you clamor for that MAP priced item is its quality,feature set, exclusivity, ect... That hard won position is hard to maintain especially if the price is forced downward. And while you could easily just go on to the next new co. in line that is flavor of the minute high quality hot stuff brand because you are an army o one, it's harder - darn near impossible for a manuf. to regain the high quality mantra once they start down the "discount" road. Like I said , ask Maytag about their quality these days, ditto with KitchenAid, neither enjoys their once lofty positions.

Why? Because they didn't protect their markets.

You see,what you folks fail to realize is - the marketplace is a two way street. It's not simply a I'll play off all these Manu. Dealers and private parties against each other to whittle down the price on my fridge because "hey it's my money" and I won't have to buy one for a good long while any more than its open season on the peasants for the manufacturers because land , machines, capital, and employees are expensive and I've got to pay for this stuff somehow so you just need to pony up if you want clean dishes.

The manufacturer will get the same price for their product either way - it's called the "wholesale" or distributor price. What we are talking about is the Retail price. Retailers receive all types of support and incentives from manufacturers including advertising dollars, floor plan (sales floor display inventory financing), volume targets etc.

So then why is it necessary for the Manufacturer to dictate the selling price to the consumer? Each retailer should be able to sell items at whatever price makes sense for them, presumably at a profit if they plan on staying in business for any length of time. These are the pillars of capitalism and a free market economy.

See if this scenario helps you understand:

Say we have a brick and mortar appliance store, let's call it "Joe's Appliances." They offer great service, lots of advice, pre sales support, post sales support and build long term relationships. They make money off the margin between their sales prices and what they have to pay the vendor. This is a traditional stocking model.

Joe's business is good for them, good for the consumer and good for the vendor. Joe's adds a lot of value to everyone, letting the vendor focus on the product while marketing directly to their consumers and support the process. The vendor's costs are kept under control because Joe's is a helpful partner.

Joe's sells CoolIt brand refrigerators for about $400 over their "cost," which represents a healthy 23 points of margin. They use that money to pay the bills, staff, do marketing campaigns, etc. They also use marketing dollars from the vendor.

People like buying from Joe's because of their service. They get lots of support in choosing the right appliances, getting a good combination, getting issues resolves, maybe even a little kitchen wisdom. They felt the prices were fair for what they received.

Now a bunch of internet retailers pop up that offer zero services but are happy with 3 points above cost and offer a rock bottom price. People see those prices and now feel like Joe's a big rip off. Joe's, afterall, must be making a killing, like they always have been, and the evil corporate fat cats at the vendor have been laughing all the way to the bank.

People start buying their appliances from the low-cost providers but still need the service. They end up contacting the vendor for all of it which now increases their costs.

The vendor sees that internet retailers are killing off their healthy partners, the ones that DO expand their customer base and offer good service, so they implement a MAP policy to try to control the bleeding.

The people on the internet decide that this is all a vast conspiracy to rape the public and decide to take their business elsewhere, deciding that the right vendor is the one who always offers a rock bottom price. They do anything they can to minimize the price paid for their appliances all the while demanding 100% reliability and instantaneous problem resolution.

The people on the internet are shocked (shocked!) to find that quality and support are suffering. They are saddened to see yet another Mom and Pop shop close up, blaming the trade deficit with China, republicans, global warming and anything else that can divert their attention away from their own actions.

The vendor, under ever constant pricing pressure from their own retailers, is forced to cut costs by laying off American workers and outsourcing to China. This further enrages the internet population who seek fine quality, hand crafted, high end, uber feature appliances at a rock-bottom Chinese price.

Does that help?

MAP is NOT price fixing. Price fixing is the COLLUSION of multiple heavyweights in an industry agreeing to set prices at a given point. Collusion is the operative word. It is not price fixing for Ferraris to be expensive. It is price fixing if GM, Honda, Toyota, Ford and Chrysler all got together and said "lets add $10,000 to each car and claim it's an increase in materials cost."

-Stooxie

antss - Feel free to state your opinion, but please don't tell me what I think, since clearly you don't know.

Stooxie - I think the more common scenario is something like this: People have been purchasing from Joe's for years and have been reasonably happy, but not overwhelmed with options. The internet comes along and they start seeing all of the possibilities out there. They ask Joe about Brand Y - he has never heard of it, but promises to look into it and call the customer. He never does. Still wanting to support Joe because he is the local guy, the customer goes to Joe's store to look at Cool-It fridges, but this time the customer is educated about the fridge specs (from the internet research) and asks a few pertinent questions. Joe doesn't know the answers but makes something up, just like he always has. The customer leaves, disappointed, and orders from the internet because Joe no longer offers anything helpful - more information can be found on the internet, more choices are available online, and the service company is determined by the manufacturer. Joe is a relic who has failed to change in order to remain helpful to his customers.

Alice,

LOL, you did hit the nail on the head!! I think what you just said and what I said above are very much related. It's true, the mom and pop shops have not kept up but, also as you said, they never had to and people were happy.

For those of you who like TED go and Google "The Paradox of Choice." Fascinating 10 minutes on how the overwhelming amount of choice we have today doesn't lead to happiness.

Oh heck, here's the link:

The Paradox of choice

-Stooxie

Interesting, but I think his initial premise that freedom depends on consumer choice is a pretty big leap.

There are a few things in there that I wouldn't take at face value (like is comment about wealth redistribution) but I think 95% of it is seen every day here at GW. Every day.

-Stooxie

one point stooxie - Joe doesn't provide after sales support out of his margin - if he has a service department, he gets reimbursed for warranty service by the manufacturer

"They do anything they can to minimize the price paid for their appliances all the while demanding 100% reliability and instantaneous problem resolution. "

INCLUDING going to the local shop to kick the tires, I mean view the merchandise, and bend the salesman's ear. And before moja cries "self serving nanny nanny boo boo" - Our showroom is by appointment only and you cannot just walk in off the street, it's physically impossible, so this consumer practice doesn't happen to me.

"Does that help? "

Nope ! people are still only interested in getting the "best" for the least, TODAY when they need and want it. They really don't care about the rest of it as soon as THEIR CoolIt get puts into the opening. Unless there is a problem with it- then they want CoolIt or better yet Ma or Pa to come out lickity split to hold their hand - even if there is a knife in their back.

alice - I have NEVER told you what to think. I simply said your statement about Congress causing the mortgage crisis was wrong, which it is. They were simply another "player" at the table.

"shops have not kept up but, also as you said, they never had to and people were happy. "

ugh...........when did I say that? Better lay off the blue ones, or is it the red? I forget sometimes, because I'm perfectly happy in the real world and when I look in the mirror. If you're not, better watch the video or better yet read Schwartz's book to gain some insight. DOn't have time? I'll give you the exec. summary: If you are not happy - it's you're own fault!

I'm going to take a long leap on this one. I have lived long enough to see the bankruptcy of many of the airlines in the US. For many years the price for airline tickets here were regulated by the govenment to make the industry viable. Then at the demand of consumers that they would be able to fly cheaper if there was price competition, the govenment price fixing was lifted. All airlines started competing on best price. Gone was decent food served with free drinks, now you're lucky to get a bag of pretzels on a transcontinental flight. Seats got crammed together until there is less space per passenger than the slave ships from africa gave.
Of course many more are flying now that couldn't have afforded to before, but after the last airline is gone, how many will fly. I am 81 and I will take the train thank you. And that leads to another effect of price wars--the loss of passenger rail service. Most lines would stop altogether and just ship frieght if not for govt. regs.
The same thing is happening that did when the supermarket replaced the corner grocery and butcher shop. Losl of quality and gain of quantity.
So I think we can just look at short term effects of this social change and go for cheapest, or we can work on a viable means for small business to survive.

antss - while I do agree that some former prestigious brands like KA, Maytag, and Bosch have cheapened their image, I don't believe it is because retailers were able to discount them. I believe it is because the manufacturers got greedy and figured they could improve their profits by going mass-market with lower-priced, more cheaply made models.

and stooxie, while you are technically correct that price fixing within a brand is not legally price fixing (at least according to the current Supreme Court), it sure smells anti-competitive to a lot of us.

Joe doesn't provide after sales support out of his margin - if he has a service department, he gets reimbursed for warranty service by the manufacturer

True, if you mean replacing a part or servicing the unit itself. However, if post sales support means answering questions about how it works or installation type questions then it does come out of the margin.

There are lots of questions on GW along the lines of "Now that I've got my CoolIt installed, how do I clean it?" or "how do I make the ice maker work?"

-Stooxie

Regarding vertical market price-fixing: that practice was illegal in the US throughout most of the 20th century. Small potatoes concerns might have gotten away with it under gentlemen's agreements, but if the practice had blossomed, as it is now, during the era of Dr. Miles the practitioners would have wound up in court.

And they are still going to end up in court, eventually. As the practice of retail price management spreads, under the auspices of the rule that what is good for one goose is certainly good for the next, and people find that no matter what consumer good they wish to purchase, it is always the same price everywhere, then that is going to get them angry and they will put the squeeze on Congress to act. The sole purpose of Sherman was to end anti-competitive business practice. RPM is anti-competitive, demonstrably so, and manifests itself in little to no price variance for a specific good at retail. Once the practice is universal it utterly eliminates price competition as a factor at retail for any consumer good sold. That is anti-competitive, sorry.

Re: Saturn. The "fixed price" was an agreed upon business tactic but it was not a contractual requirement on the part of the dealer. All Saturn could do is "discourage" unauthorized variance from the sticker price. There was no legal way for GM to demand its dealers sell at that price, as was certainly seen when dealers were adding $3,000 to the sticker for the Sky when it was introduced.

Regarding KA and Maytag, it seems to me their problems all occurred as part and parcel to their acquisition by large beancounter conglomerates and raiders. When they were independent, it was illegal to price fix ala RPM, but they still managed to put out a good product. It always has seemed to me that the quality of the item has to do more with the corporate culture and insistence upon excellence than anything else. Take Apple. They don't need RPM schemes. They charge high bucks up front for their gear. Retailers pay it because the demand is high and the gear is great. But you can still price shop a Mac. You can still price shop a Honda. Great gear, no anti-competitive shenanigans.

I will say this: antss, you are right about the housing bubble.

Mojavean,

You seem to be equating retail price management with cross-vendor collusion, or what I would term actual price fixing. The difference is that if Vendor A employs RPM and Vendor B does as well, they can still complete with each other if they are not agreeing to behind the scenes to hold prices at a given level.

You're saying that once RPM becomes universal it is anti-competitive but I don't see the connection. Even if every vendor did it wouldn't you still have choice among the vendors? You wouldn't forced to pay $30 for brown shoes that were exactly the same from everyone.

Of course do you think that would even happen? It's so easy for a low cost provider to crop up.

-Stooxie

Hi Stooxie,
No, I understand the difference. The logic is this: if every good is similarly marketed under RPM then there is NO ability to price-shop across retail outlets for anything. Pick any particular refrigerator. The price is always the same. Oven? Same, no matter where you shop. What happens is the crucial component of price competition at retail is eliminated. That is one of the chief things that drives costs down. Just like manufacturers, retailers can and do bring items to market with different efficiencies and those efficiences would, under our prior regulatory framework, result in price variances across retailers. RPM seeks to eliminate that competition.

Once everything is under RPM, no matter where you go, for any particular item, the price is the same. Retail price shopping goes away. That is the issue. And, as I mentioned before, the practice used to be held illegal, as Sherman anti-trust was held to restrain vertical price-fixing agreements as anti-competitive behavior. Sherman, the underlying law, has not changed, but the Supreme Court has been packed with activists and they overturned Dr. Miles with the Leegin decision (typical 5-4 right v. left)

It is not possible to argue that RPM is necessary for business to continue to make good products. There is no guarantee that any company engaging in those agreements will even make good products. The potential for abuse is huge, once the various other manufacturers adopt the practice out of self defense, which is already happening. That is why I say this will eventually self correct because the people are going to get sick of seeing the same price on everything no matter where they shop and will pressure congress to act.

Lastly, as I pointed out to antss, this is a simple matter of trade law. There was no Constitutional issue at play in Leegin that I am aware of. One change in the law can, and will, put an end to the practice sooner or later, crushing but one more of the laissez-fairest's fragile dreams.

"I don't believe it is because retailers were able to discount them. I believe it is because the manufacturers got greedy and figured they could improve their profits by going mass-market with lower-priced, more cheaply made models."

It is certainly a combination of both - manuf. are certainly culpable here - don't misunderstand me.

"And they are still going to end up in court, eventually."

This has already been through the courts and the Supremes have ruled on it (at least a facet of it). It will not be revisited anytime soon. Sorry folks you'll just have to keep bending over for now if you want the hot CoolIt type appliances and electronics.

"The logic is this: if every good is similarly marketed under RPM then there is NO ability to price-shop across retail outlets for anything."

- or -

"Once everything is under RPM, no matter where you go, for any particular item, the price is the same. Retail price shopping goes away. That is the issue."

Yes - but you don't really think every manuf. can sustain that model do you? It'd be impossible because the you/consumers/the public won't play the game with the companies in the middle of the food chain on down. They would not be able to sustain the practice and would soon cave to pressure to lower prices or "discount"

So, we are back to a free and open market again in which you can choose to buy a CoolIt at its "fixed" price , or take your business to RunOftheMill box that is available at Sears, and on Amazon and even has a coupon in Sunday's paper for a free frozen pizza to get you started.

Don't worry people, the marketplace will never allow EVERY appliance manuf. to use a RPM scheme so you will ALWAYS have a choice or SEVERAL non "fixed" price dishwashers or fridges or sinks.

This is really all just window dressing anyway. Let's suppose there are no dealers and you order everything on the interweb for the "rock bottom price" - no middle man, no markup no bla bla bla.

It will now come direct from the manuf. and you pay freight from their warehouse which means that Miele DW is going to cost a LOT more for those of you in California then it will for NewYorkers. Second, and more important - who do think is setting the price now? That's right - the manufacture. Think they are going to give you a discount, deal or coupon now ??? The price will be fixed and non negotiable.

It's always the same scenario since the dawn of civilization: The guy with the good or service decides how much he wants for it and the guy with the money decides if the price is worth it, AND if he has enough to acquire it. Everything else is filler and a way to pass the time.

The ONLY REASON you folks moan about RPM is you want and feel the products with this scheme are worthy of gracing your home in the first place ! You simply would rather hold on to as much of you cash as you can and you can no longer count on any outside help negotiating on your behalf. If you had more $$$ than you could reasonably spend you wouldn't care at all if the price was "fixed" or not - you'd still be buying it based on a need and your perception of the thing's worth.

Maseratis and Gulfstreams don't fly out the door for less than the manuf. says they cost unless there is something wrong with a particular unit that warrants a price adjustment a la dee's bargain bin finds. The typical customer of those products has plenty of $$$ especially disposable, and tend to be savvy negotiators, AND have little NEED for those things. They want them, yet they are not able to strongarm the manuf. into price concessions based on a potential sale. They also don't whine that "it costs too much" and "I wish I could buy this on the internet so I could save some $$$ to buy little Johnny a BMW." ANd my favorite: "Someone (govt.) should do something about Gulfstream because they charge too much $$$ and don't allow the market to set the prices for the best small business aircraft and it's just not fair".

Absurd? Kinda - but how come no one is helping out these fella's cause? Because they can fend for themselves? I doubt very much that the single mom making $35- 40k a year gives a rat's petute about whether or not you are overpaying for your Miele oven , SubZero fridge or Bose stereo. It's all relative, so remember your particular perspective is not the only or correct one !!!

On the courts, I wouldn't bet on it not coming up again. Leegin overturned the "per se" yardstick, it DID NOT overturn "rule of reason."

Also, the USSC's embrace of Robert Bork as a sort of Congress of the mind whereby he and not 100 years of precedent dictate the intent of Congress strikes me as an open invitation to Congress to step in and correct.

Anyway, antss, don't assume you know my motivation. either. I don't want or need any appliaces, I have what I need for the time being. And when the time comes for me to replace something I will find away around the RPMs.

What motivates me is that I want to see the price fixing stopped and the people who think it a good idea out of public office. I think I have a good chance of getting what I want in the long run.

"antss, don't assume you know my motivation. either"

I don't presume to, and frankly I could care less what it is.

"I will find away around the RPMs. "

Awesome - then why all the bellyaching ?

"I think I have a good chance of getting what I want in the long run. "

You have a better than even chance, especially the longer the "long run" is. Everything changes eventually. I just wouldn't bet on it by the next time you need an appliance.

It doesn't matter anyway because you'll find an avenue around the issue - ain't America great?

Really don't care what yours is either, antss! But you sure do ratchet up over this topic. It hits a nerve. And no, I will not stop talking about it. If the occasion arises I will discuss it again, and look forward to your delightful responses!

While we are on this subject, has anyone actually established that Bosch really IS doing, or trying to do, resale price maintenance? The OP asked in connection with a Bosch dishwasher. Bosch dishwashers seem to me to be advertised with some degree of price variability.

"Maseratis and Gulfstreams don't fly out the door for less than the manuf. says they cost unless there is something wrong with a particular unit that warrants a price adjustment a la dee's bargain bin finds"

Actually drop by a Maserati dealer and you'll be surprised how negotiable they are. It's all about supply and demand. They make tens of thousands of Maseratis not nearly as minimal as a Ferrari. That is why you have to pay Sticker or MSRP for a Ferrari, there just isn't that much availability and that is what makes them exclusive.

Now that we are talking about appliances, there are plenty to be had. Clearly there are many more GEs made than Bosch or other MAPs however, still they are mass produced volume products.

We are not comparing Ferraris to Bosch dishwashers. The Ferrari is a luxury toy in limited supply and the Bosch is a daily tool much like a drill. Let's treat all tools the same since I can by a screwdriver and a Bosch as Sears.

"Really don't care what yours is either, antss!"

ooooooooh - nanny nanny boo boo- tag your it now.

Care to make a little wage on the case showing back up in D.C. ???

"you'll be surprised how negotiable they are"

Really ?- not in my neighborhood. And in yours - are you certain of the pricing or is a " veiled " deal?

Actually you can get a pretty good deal on a 2011 model that few want anyway. But this is just like " dee's deals" on a discontinued model. Moja can also get a similar deal on a SubZero or a Miele - just not on a current model fresh from the factory in a new box.

Moja- it doesn't hit a nerve with me, but I'm not sure whether you were speaking about yourself on that one or not. What does frost my backside is whiners and complainers that the world or system is not "FAIR"

What's fair is I can set up any sort of business (legal) that I want and make anything ; that I can then sell to anyone at any price I choose. You have the right to buy anything you want with your money. You are not forced to buy anything from me and I don't have to sell to you if I don't want to. What could be more "fair" than that?

I mean, why is it that you can't just patronize a company that doesn't engage in this practice? It's not as if you can't get fridge or microwave or oven or dishwasher from a co. without this? If enough feel this way the co.'s will change or fail. They are not harming you directly so why do you feel big brother needs to step in and defend your honor?

"has anyone actually established that Bosch really IS doing, or trying to do, resale price maintenance? "

Was wondering when someone would get around to this gem?

"Nanny nanny boo boo" ? Isn't that precious!

Whining? Here's some whining, antss:

OOH!! It's SO NOT FAIR!! My poor boutique appliance source is being criticized for strong-arming independent businesses! They should be able to order their retailers around like a bunch of trained seals if they WANT! Who CARES if it costs consumers money and is anti-competitive??

It "frosts my bottom" (precious again, 2 for 2, antss) that anyone would second guess Robert Bork and the pack of Austrian refugees on the Supreme Court. Businesses should be able to do whatever they want and if you don't like it then Nanny nnnnn ...

Lastly, LEEGIN isn't going to be back because it has already been decided. THAT is not what I am saying. I am saying that the PRINCIPLE of vertical market price-fixing will be back in court.

FYI, Leegin did NOT make it "legal." Leegin changed the legal interpretation that had held for nearly a century that RPM was "per se" or "in and of itself" illegal. Now, a legal concept called the "rule of reason" must be applied, which means that plaintiffs will have to show that the specific example of vertical market price fixing is resulting in anti-competitive harm to them. And yes, as the practice spreads, and it will, it is going to be drawn back into court again unless and until the Supreme Court rules that "rule of reason" no longer holds either.

I wouldn't put it past them, but they haven't tried it yet.

who, exactly, is whining moja ???

And, once again, you are so far off base about me it is comical. Strictly speaking, I am one of the people being "strongarmed" in today's market but I certainly don't wish to join your socialistic utopia.

But, I have a choice about whom I deal with on both sides. If I don't like "boutique appliance source" , or their terms stink or their product stinks , or their reps aren't dishy enough , I don't have to enter into an agreement with them to sell their products. Since we don;t allow walk in traffic , and don't have a retail website , I don't have to sell to anybody I don't want to - FOR ANY REASON. And you don't have shop at my place either !

Which brings us round to :

"plaintiffs will have to show that the specific example of vertical market price fixing is resulting in anti-competitive harm to them".

That is going to be EXTREMELY hard if not impossible to do. Even if someone wins that argument in a lower court it'll languish in the appellate courts a long time over technical issues before it reaches D.C.

I also, think you misunderstand me on this. I'm not saying it WON"T HAPPEN, only that it will not happen by the end of this decade or before you need a new appliance from one of these outfits.

You still have yet to answer my question: why is it that you can't just patronize a company that doesn't engage in this practice? Why is it you NEED to be able to buy a SubZero or a Miele at a certain imaginary price that is less than what they post on their website ?

Ah, so it's not just me who throws antss into a conniption fit when the price of an appliance is discussed? I was so surprised to see him(?) take umbrage in a different post about the huge cost difference between a cd fridge and a regular-depth fridge. Gotta say, it was rather amusing when he started waving the American flag to bolster his argument. :)

i thought i should check back in and am amazed at the lengthy firestorm and debate my original post started

in the interest of completion, i thought i'd follow up on my original topic ;)

- there is indeed a "fixed price" on the Bosch 800 plus series of dishwashers, at least in my area (SF Bay Area, CA). one dealer misquoted me a price that was about 10% off and then after my request for clarification, corrected themselves.

- there turned out to be a 10% rebate offered by the local distributor which helped with what we paid out the door. (that rebate available at any of the local dealers)

- while i have had good service from my local dealer in the past, this time, i felt that i really didn't gain much by buying from them. in dealing with a few issues i ended up having (all resolved, but mostly due to my own footwork and effort), they were of minimal help. that being said, i wouldn't feel comfortable mail ordering a large appliance, but that's just me.

Derek - do you feel you were "harmed" because the dealer couldn't charge whatever he wanted to on that dishwasher ???

not harmed. as noted by many people, i just want to buy something at a price that fits my budget and know that i got the a reasonable deal. since i am a return customer who didn't use any real services from my local dealer to buy my dishwasher, if it weren't for the fixed pricing, i'm pretty sure he would have given me a slight discount. did i get harmed, no. but i think in many ways, it should be up to the dealer if he wants to reward me in some way for my business. but i see the benefits, too. but regardless, everyone is entitled to their opinion in this matter, i can see that there are many here ;)

the reason i started this whole query in the first place is one needs to compare apples and oranges: Bosch makes it hard since they fix their prices on their 800 plus series and allows dealers to discount the other product lines. that makes it very difficult to use the prices they list on their website to properly comparison shop. without some footwork, its not easy to get a real idea of the relative cost difference between different Bosch models.

i also know where you are coming from (i think): i am a long time audiophile and seen way too many good stores go out of business because people used their services to pick their equipment and then they went ahead and bought mail order. that, IMHO, is wrong.

anyway, you all can agree to disagree, right? :D

in the end, i got what i wanted at a fair price (although i could have gambled and mail ordered it for less). the rebate brought the price into something we were willing to pay. else, we would have gone for a lower model (actually a Thermador, rebadged Bosch which was a steal*)

* as it is turning out, that may have been a better choice since it is starting to look like our water is not as hard as i thought it was, thereby, relegating the water softener feature of our Bosch to an unused feature which we paid for. live and learn...

Derek, I'm in the bay area too and I have two words for you: Lemi Shine. I have a low-end Meile and was so peeved when I realized our water (without softener) wouldn't allow the machine to clean properly, after the phosphates were removed. I wasn't told this fact but eventually figured it out. The woman from Miele told me to put vinegar through a cycle every so often but that did not do the trick by a long shot. So now I put a tablespoon or so of Lemi Shine (I buy it at Target,) in with the tablet of detergent and have no problems. Enjoy your new dishwasher!

sjrein: as i've learned our water runs from soft (55 mg/l) to moderately hard well water (150 mg/l). so far, we haven't had any problems cleaning using Finish Powerball tabs. but right now we are getting a blend of water, according to our water district, so it's in between that range.

i have heard great things about lemi-shine and will give it a shot of we start having issues. so far, so good, though with the Powerballs and we haven't used the water softener feature.